How do you feel about a religious group being an antagonist in fantasy?

I'm fine with it for the most part. The monotheistic religious group as antagonist is kinda overused in Japanese Pop-Culture Fantasy (such as RPGs) but I still feel it manages to be intriguing, even as someone from Christendom (areas heavily influenced by Christianity but not necessarily religious, such as the Americas and Europe.)

Depends on the intent of the author.

It doesn't bother me when JRPGs have evil Catholic churches and where you eventually fight and kill God because I know they're just looking for cool motifs, and barely understand the religion they're riffing on (in the same way they use Norse mythology in games - it's all just "foreign myth" to them).

I find stuff like the Golden Compass annoying because Philip Pullman comes across like a bitter dick with an axe to grind, who is deliberately aiming at children to influence young minds.

If you're writing as a "Gotcha! Fuck you!", you're probably kind of an asshole. The same applies whether you're basing your main villain on the guy who cut you off in traffic or your ex who left you for a guy named Serge, or if you're taking shots at the church because you're still mad your mom made you go to Sunday school as a kid. It's just petty and sad.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

Depends on the intent of the author.

It doesn't bother me when JRPGs have evil Catholic churches and where you eventually fight and kill God because I know they're just looking for cool motifs, and barely understand the religion they're riffing on (in the same way they use Norse mythology in games - it's all just "foreign myth" to them).

I find stuff like the Golden Compass annoying because Philip Pullman comes across like a bitter dick with an axe to grind, who is deliberately aiming at children to influence young minds.

If you're writing as a "Gotcha! Fuck you!", you're probably kind of an asshole. The same applies whether you're basing your main villain on the guy who cut you off in traffic or your ex who left you for a guy named Serge, or if you're taking shots at the church because you're still mad your mom made you go to Sunday school as a kid. It's just petty and sad.

Interesting. You make some good points and I agree!

My only real issue is that it is so over used that I just assume any religion presented is going to be the villain.

I'm religious and like it.

Depends on the genre. As a fan of shitty isekai, it's so overdone to the point where the pope not being a tyrant/human supremacist/lich is frankly a plot twist. Even in series where the protagonist overtly aligns with the church, it tends to be supporting an insider who is resisting either some diabolical plot or attempting to overcome simple inefficient bureaucracy. And often even then they're shown as a neutral peacekeeping entity, not an organization founded on benevolence

Overall like it and is certainly believable. Characters or NPCs in the game being overly sheepy about the religion or its organization can be a bit of a negative but that's the only downside that comes to mind.

rjsilverthorn posted...

My only real issue is that it is so over used that I just assume any religion presented is going to be the villain.

Only I can think of right away that isn't is whatever they call their religion in zelda.

Sufferedphoenix posted...

Only I can think of right away that isn't is whatever they call their religion in zelda.

Have only played one game personally but have heard that its usually an actually good group in Dragon Quest.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

or your ex who left you for a guy named Serge, or if you're taking shots at the church because you're still mad your mom made you go to Sunday school as a kid.

sounds weirdly specific

I don't really care all that much. Single player and mmos both have them so meh. The doctrines or tenets whatever don't sway me in any direction.

rjsilverthorn posted...

My only real issue is that it is so over used that I just assume any religion presented is going to be the villain.

Depends on the individual example. Sometimes I get the feeling that writers pick the evil religious organization because that somehow makes it more palatable to audiences when it comes to political themes. They can fall back to discrediting any political position the organization has just by showing that the religion is false, which means they don't have to worry if the story doesn't properly make its case for why a given position is wrong; its source is wrong, ergo, the position can be dismissed out of hand. This can get particularly poorly executed if there are multiple religions in the setting.

That doesn't always happen, though. One of my favorite examples of a religious organization in video games is the Order of Lorelei from Tales of the Abyss. The Order venerates a highly detailed and accurate prophecy, but even within the Order, people have different priorities and interpretations of the prophecy, and what ought to be done in relation to it. Ultimately, the Order as a *cultural entity* is an antagonist, not due to any inherent malice, but rather due to the ultimate nature of the prophecy itself.

Spoilers: The Order teaches that fulfilling the prophecy and its foretold war will lead to unprecedented prosperity, but they are missing pieces of said prophecy. As such, they don't realize that while the prophecy does promise a period of prosperity, it is ultimately a *WARNING.* "Find a way to avert this. I cannot." But the Order of Lorelei has moralized fulfillment of said prophecy, and is therefore working actively against its true purpose. It's an unusual take for a video game in that genre, imo, and it reminds me of when people pick out a sentence or two in a religious text to prove something, only for the broader text to be proven to have the *opposite* message like using Romans 1 to shit on gay people when, if you read on to the very first sentence of Romans 2, the passage is ultimately trying to warn the reader to *not be a hypocrite and condemn and judge others.* Much of the time antagonistic religious institutions end up being (somewhat understandably) comically evil, so TotA was a breath of fresh air to me, and it was nice to see how different NPCs struggled in different ways with their faith.

In fantasy, the god(s) of religions, most of the time have an actual direct presence in the setting and are not just something invoked by (religious) leaders to justify their positions. Which kinda gives religion a different dynamic in fantasy than it does in real life.

I think there's no variation of religious people being portrayed as the bad guys that I don't like.

I also don't mind them being portrayed as the good guys. It is fantasy, after all.

It reminds me too much of reality.

JoeDangIt posted...

It reminds me too much of reality.

this, they're the antagonists of real life why focus even more on it?

JoeDangIt posted...

It reminds me too much of reality.

Makes sense

pretty much agreed with PO. if it's done well and it's not obvious that the creator is just doing it to be a tit then i don't care. i'd extend that to any sort of religious inclusion, not just as the villains.

Dishonored has fantasy elements and that religious group could shut down your powers.

The Catholic church absolutely deserves to be shat on

I have no opinion on it.

I have no problem with it.