So if God knows everything, including everything that ever has and ever will happen, doesn't that mean that everything that ever happens is predetermined? And by extension wouldn't that imply that free will is a lie since everything that ever will happen, including this post questioning it, was known by God at the beginning of time?He has a branching exponential knowledge of everything. He knows all possibilities and the results of everything and all outcomes. You have free will. Angels do not, interestingly, which is what separates them from humans.
On that same note, every time God was disappointed in humanity in the Bible, be it the great flood or eating the forbidden fruit, wouldn't he have known about it in advance?But they do have free will. He was aware of all outcomes. That must give humans some edge over him.
Like he would have known the entire human experiment would have been a failure long before he even started it.... unless of course it ultimately ends in a success.He created humans because he "was so happy that he wanted to share his happiness and be even happier". There's no experiment. A portion of people will go to heaven, and the ones who don't choose him will not.
On that same note does God know of any action he himself will ever take?I'm going to go with yes but I really don't know. It's a work of fiction that's thought up as it goes. The Catholic church has an administration where they meditate on these pressing issues, and anything the pope says is infallible.
So if God knows everything, including everything that ever has and ever will happen, doesn't that mean that everything that ever happens is predetermined? And by extension wouldn't that imply that free will is a lie since everything that ever will happen, including this post questioning it, was known by God at the beginning of time?
I'm an atheist who has done years of bible study in Catholicism. It's the main denomination of Christianity.
He has a branching exponential knowledge of everything. He knows all possibilities and the results of everything and all outcomes. You have free will. Angels do not, interestingly, which is what separates them from humans.
But they do have free will. He was aware of all outcomes. That must give humans some edge over him.
He created humans because he "was so happy that he wanted to share his happiness and be even happier". There's no experiment. A portion of people will go to heaven, and the ones who don't choose him will not.
I'm going to go with yes but I really don't know. It's a work of fiction that's thought up as it goes. The Catholic church has an administration where they meditate on these pressing issues, and anything the pope says is infallible.
But they do have free will. He was aware of all outcomes. That must give humans some edge over him.this is the exact part where I think i detach from religious trains of thought
I'd love to pick your brain a little more. Where you actually catholic? What made you leave the faith if so?I mean, please.
I mean, please.
I was as Catholic as you can get. Born into the religion and took every word as absolute.
What tore me away from it was, to be kind of humble, Family Guy. There was an episode where Lois was trying to find a new religion, the gag at the end of it was that "all religion is bullshit anyway". I laughed, and that was it, I didn't believe in god anymore.
God lives in the head of every religious person as an imaginary friend. You never want to let go of this friend. This friend is always there for you. The downside is that they never talk back, God is always silent. You always are fighting the feelings of atheism, the idea that he's really not there. That's more powerful than anything else in my experience, the feeling you get with your best friend, God. All problems you have can be solved by him, eventually.
When I left I felt some relief, as well as the feelings you get when you lose your best friend. It was a cascade of shedding my Conservative beliefs. Gays didn't have to be evil anymore, global warming could be true. Trans people could be valid and acceptable. I was allowed to truly think about things objectively.
I still remember the days I spent with my grandma in bible study fondly. She really believed those things and wanted the best for me.
Personally I will never be able to feel religion again, I've seen all of it.
So if God knows everything, including everything that ever has and ever will happen, doesn't that mean that everything that ever happens is predetermined? And by extension wouldn't that imply that free will is a lie since everything that ever will happen, including this post questioning it, was known by God at the beginning of time?No, it's not predetermined. When He gave us a free will it means that He gave us the ability to make choices which can affect what kind of life you have and when you die because it is possible for someone to die before their time. By not having free will means we are slaves forced to do God's will and God will not do that because it would go against His nature.
On that same note, every time God was disappointed in humanity in the Bible, be it the great flood or eating the forbidden fruit, wouldn't he have known about it in advance?
Like he would have known the entire human experiment would have been a failure long before he even started it.... unless of course it ultimately ends in a success.
On that same note does God know of any action he himself will ever take?
I've got another question, if you need to believe in god/jesus and have faith in him in order to go to heaven, does that mean everyone who has never encountered Christianity (such as uncontacted tribes, people in some remote areas, etc) and have never even heard of god will just be excluded from heaven without ever getting the opportunity?
They keep wanting to know why I don't want to believe in god, and none of my answers seem to make sense to them. it's driving me nuts.I have also been an atheist my whole life and few things annoy me more than religious people telling me I just don't want to believe. In fact there were several times in my life when I wanted nothing more than to believe in religion. To say that you don't want to believe seems to imply that you can just flip a switch and all of a sudden believe, skipping the whole process of philosophical justification which should compel you to believe whether you want to or not.
few things annoy me more than religious people telling me I just don't want to believe.
These topics tend to be heavily and acceptingly pro atheism and how stupid or delusional Christians are though. It would be nice to hear from an atheist who stopped believeing in crystals or who was an ex muslim or who no longer believes in the 'ancient ancestral spirits', for a change. We never do though.Atheism is about GODS, not crystals or spirits. And ex-Muslims are pretty common, actually, I just don't know that any are on this particular board, but you'll find that a lot of their arguments will be similar to ex-Christians for rather obvious reasons.
The forbidden fruit was a test. But blaming Adam who didn't really know until afterwards is kind of a downer for us males otherwise we still be in the garden. Why should GOD tell us don't do that or this every time we are about to make a morally wrong choice? It is all right there in the 10 commandments.If you don't have knowledge that disobedience is bad, then you cannot be faulted for being disobedient. And faulting people for being deceived is shitty, too. This applies to both humans in the story, not just the "male."
God's omniscience doesn't prevent you from acting upon your own free will. You could have chosen not to make this topic, and it would have had nothing to do with what God's knowledge of the future.but when God was done stirring the primordial pot, he knew this topic would be made. one stir more and we could have all been heroic firefighters instead of gamefaqs posters
Sometimes I'm a little baffled that people look at this story and see it as somehow less bizarre or more special than any other weird-ass origin story from any other land.
Atheism is about GODS, not crystals or spirits
If you don't have knowledge that disobedience is bad, then you cannot be faulted for being disobedient.
That's not how the law works. Break the law in a different country and say "well i just didn't know bro, so it's not my fault".
If you don't have knowledge that disobedience is bad, then you cannot be faulted for being disobedient. And faulting people for being deceived is shitty, too. This applies to both humans in the story, not just the "male."
Meanwhile in the real world if someone's car is stolen, everyone starts screaming "why'd you leave your doors unlocked?!" God set them up to fail and then punished them for it. Why should anyone beg for forgiveness for something somebody else did in ignorance? Sometimes I'm a little baffled that people look at this story and see it as somehow less bizarre or more special than any other weird-ass origin story from any other land.
I've got another question, if you need to believe in god/jesus and have faith in him in order to go to heaven, does that mean everyone who has never encountered Christianity (such as uncontacted tribes, people in some remote areas, etc) and have never even heard of god will just be excluded from heaven without ever getting the opportunity?They say that they go to a sort of purgatory that is a pleasant place if you were a good person who wasn't Catholic. Non-catholic Christians get more preferential treatment.
Sounds like you had a great experience being free of it. I have been atheist my whole life. Recently someone close to me who was also atheist found the catholic faith and joined the church. They have been trying hard to push me into the catholic faith, but I've been heavily resistant. They keep wanting to know why I don't want to believe in god, and none of my answers seem to make sense to them. it's driving me nuts.Yeah the people who become religious later in life are a different beast. It's usually because they were in a really dark spot and they needed something to turn their life around.
If they truly knew their Bibles, they wouldn't say that, because no one can come near to God unless God draws them. Kind of ties into the topic also.I also don't like any of those either.
These topics tend to be heavily and acceptingly pro atheism and how stupid or delusional Christians are though. It would be nice to hear from an atheist who stopped believeing in crystals or who was an ex muslim or who no longer believes in the 'ancient ancestral spirits', for a change. We never do though.
Atheism is non religious, not solely about Gods. No atheist I know says they believe in ghosts and an afterlife and crystal vibes and auras, but just no creator lol
They were both told in the beginning.They were both told not to do something, but they had know knowledge that disobeying that order was wrong. Do you see the problem?
Atheism is non religious, not solely about Gods. No atheist I know says they believe in ghosts and an afterlife and crystal vibes and auras, but just no creator lolBuddhism, Confucianism, Taoism, Jainism... I think there are some interpretations of Hinduism, and even some Christian sects that are atheistic. You're just wrong, dude. *shrug*
That's not how the law works. Break the law in a different country and say "well i just didn't know bro, so it's not my fault".It depends on one's interpretation, however, in this instance, the individuals in question were physically incapable of educating themselves, unlike people irl. In such a case, ignorance literally is an excuse; there was no way for them to know, and they were set up to fail. I'm not going to strike a dog for not obeying me when it couldn't really even conceive of why it should.
Philosophically, I personally see it as .... teaching humility.I agree. It is unfortunate that people try to interpret these stories so literally. Unfortunately, for many Christians, they feel they *must* because they think much of what Jesus did relies on "original sin" being an actual literal thing.
Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism, Jainism... I think there are some interpretations of Hinduism, and even some Christian sects that are atheistic. You're just wrong, dude. *shrug*
It depends on one's interpretation, however, in this instance, the individuals in question were physically incapable of educating themselves, unlike people irl.
In what manner were they physically incapable of educating themselves?
Some sects of Christianity are athestic? Perhaps you meant aesthetic.
but not ascribing them to an actual God figure so much as to the spirituality of people
By not having ready physical access to any of the information involve in such education, nor any reason to believe that such information exists or has any value such that they can't be reasonably expected to go out of their way to find it. If you're born, live your life, and die on an island thousands of miles away from any record of Christianity or its teachings, how could you possibly know anything about the Christian God?
Wait wait wait. I'm not super super familiar with the story of Adam and Eve, but didn't they already know about God as they had talked and could talk and ask stuff, and had been given instructions?
What do you mean then by spirituality? It seems to be very unscientific when I look for definitions of it. Some unseen power that connects everyone. And I think people liking the values of Christianity, but denying any existence of a god or heaven or anything like that doesn't make them Christian at all. That's like me saying I'm muslim, but I dont believe in muhammed or allah, I just like the traditions and think some teachings are good.Again, it sort of depends on your interpretation. I've met Christians who say that what it means to be Christian is to follow the teachings of Jesus, but that they don't see him as a divine entity (so they view him more like a spiritual leader like Siddhartha Gautama). This shouldn't surprise anyone; there are so many different interpretations of Christianity it'll make your head spin.
It is very interesting to hear some people say they are atheist but still religious and ascribing to Buddhism, for example as above. I'd never heard of that before.It's definitely less common in the Americas and Europe, I think.
Wait wait wait. I'm not super super familiar with the story of Adam and Eve, but didn't they already know about God as they had talked and could talk and ask stuff, and had been given instructions?Yes, but how could they make use of any of that? They had no knowledge that would give them context. They literally did not know what was right and wrong, that disobeying God was bad. God tells them they'll die if they eat the fruit, but they don't know what that even means. And the snake tells Eve God lied to them, how is she supposed to know the snake is lying? She doesn't know anything. It's like getting mad at a toddler for sticking doing something because their older sibling told them to do it.
They literally did not know what was right and wrong, that disobeying God was bad. God tells them they'll die if they eat the fruit, but they don't know what that even means. And the snake tells Eve God lied to them, how is she supposed to know the snake is lying?
And the snake tells Eve God lied to them, how is she supposed to know the snake is lying? She doesn't know anything.
It's like getting mad at a toddler for sticking doing something because their older sibling told them to do it.
But this is what happens when people try to make grand statements about the stories being literal and about God being absolutely moral and correct all the time and stuff, it turns stories that are meant to be explanatory and thought-provoking into... really deranged tales about an all-powerful being that keeps doing things that seem completely ridiculous
Again, it sort of depends on your interpretation. I've met Christians who say that what it means to be Christian is to follow the teachings of Jesus....
Sure, but they couldn't have known why disobedience would be bad.
If you don't have knowledge that disobedience is bad, then you cannot be faulted for being disobedient. And faulting people for being deceived is shitty, too. This applies to both humans in the story, not just the "male."
Meanwhile in the real world if someone's car is stolen, everyone starts screaming "why'd you leave your doors unlocked?!" God set them up to fail and then punished them for it. Why should anyone beg for forgiveness for something somebody else did in ignorance? Sometimes I'm a little baffled that people look at this story and see it as somehow less bizarre or more special than any other weird-ass origin story from any other land.
Why would god even put forbidden fruit in the garden if he knew they were gonna eat it? Or why let the snake in the garden if he knew it would trick them?
The serpent snuck into the garden when GOD was not watching
The future is never set in stone