"The world would be happier and better without the internet"

This is always an argument people bring up online that if the internet never existed people would be a million times happier and the world would be better without it

but do you really agree with it?

get rid of smartphones and just have landlines they also said

I think a lot of people would be happier if they weren't addicted to social media.

The Internet is a cool tool being used improperly, like guns.

NightMareBunny posted...

but do you really agree with it?

Hell no. How else am I supposed to remember that actor from that one episode of a niche show that aired for one season in the 90s?

NightMareBunny posted...

but do you really agree with it?

No. I think people who say that take for granted the Internet's role in spreading and preserving knowledge and the arts.

I think the internet is a lot of things, both good and bad.

But the bad is getting bigger and the good is getting smaller. Especially with the AI powered surveillance state and manipulative algorithms.

I think there's room for debate whether the internet as a whole or social media are a net positive or negative.

I think smartphones have undoubtedly been a net negative. Before smartphones, you didn't have constant connectivity. Constant connectivity drives a need for constant content and engagement/rage bait. While true that it was really only dial-up and hard-wired connection that made "logging on" a discrete act, I don't know that people would be online so much on laptop wifi if we had no smartphones. With phones, now people can get online in the shitter, when they're waiting in line, etc.

There isn't even much a smartphone can do that I think of as a huge benefit. Its best function in an emergency is the actual phone part. Having a camera is nice but we had (shitty, but bound to improve) cameras in dumbphones before. GPS I suppose could also save someone's ass, but like 99% of the time it's just something that's overly relied on to make trips across town and shit. Almost all of the rest ultimately boils down to stuff that kills time, which was fun and novel for the first few years, but now I think more and more people are starting to see how bad this is.

Smartphones and social media are definitely a huge net negative

Remember when Facebook was caught trying to make people depressed lol

It would probably be true but I'd be built wholly off the back of ignorance being bliss.

That's not to say everyone gets all the correct information from the internet (as a lot of it is incorrect information or lies), but they'd have less information to access as a whole, which would still be making people happier through having less information and being more ignorant.

But that's not to say, because ignorance is bliss, that it should be the goal.

Social media's issue is it effectively supercharges tribalism.

Yeah you are right about social media being a net negative, I don't know why I worded it like that. I was just thinking that social media has some power for organization/positive visibility of various demographic groups and viewpoints, which can be good or bad, but I think that the ones who would do harm with that ability are "winning", sadly. And even if you don't wanna get political about it, yeah it's also an issue of people having warped perceptions of life, toxic comparisons to others, etc.

I liked Facebook when it was just seeing pictures of what people in high school were up to, and didn't have a bunch of corporations or special interest groups on there, or incentives to do daily posting. That was like 15+ years ago though

VioletZer0 posted...

I think the internet is a lot of things, both good and bad.

But the bad is getting bigger and the good is getting smaller.

I miss the days when the Internet wasn't "on" all the time.

TV's were TV's. You didn't have apps, you didn't have streaming. You watched broadcast shows, or cable. Or you rented a DVD or a tape.

If you wanted music you listened to the radio, or you bought a CD or cassette. Maybe traded a mixtape with your friends.

Your cellphone was a phone. Maybe you could get short text messages, from one person at a time. But you had limited minutes and you had to pay for each message, so you used it sparingly.

Accessing the Internet required dialing up a modem, and when you disconnected, that was it, you were offline. And when you were connected, it took a long time to download anything, so you were picky about what you downloaded.

Nowadays it's just a firehose at full blast non-stop.

I think the problem is there is entire nations hiring bot farms to make the Internet as toxic and misleading as possible.

My theory might get proven in a few years after Russia falls if we suddenly see less toxicity.

People who are angry thanks to the internet would find a way to be angry without it.

captpackrat posted...

TV's were TV's. You didn't have apps, you didn't have streaming. You watched broadcast shows, or cable. Or you rented a DVD or a tape.

If you wanted music you listened to the radio, or you bought a CD or cassette. Maybe traded a mixtape with your friends.

Having near-immediate, widespread access to entertainment has had a weird effect of devaluing it for me. How are you even supposed to choose something at this point? It feels like it all just exists to kill time at this point. Whatever shared pop culture still exists is defined by some vague concept of trending that's pushed by the internet and streaming services, and even when good stuff is still occasionally produced, it's like a constant race for the next week's hot "content" to be churned out. It's so consumerist. Nothing feels truly essential or relevant anymore, and with so much stuff available, it's so overwhelming I wonder what is the point of watching or playing anything at all. I know the answer is some form of just find something you intrinsically enjoy, but is that really all there is to enjoy out of life, consuming media?

SinisterSlay posted...

I think the problem is there is entire nations hiring bot farms to make the Internet as toxic and misleading as possible.

My theory might get proven in a few years after Russia falls if we suddenly see less toxicity.

This is cope. Everyone is botting, especially with the advent of generative AI slop, not just Russia. And the botting wouldn't be so effective if there weren't genuine people around to be baited by it.

bachewychomp posted...

How are you even supposed to choose something at this point?

Watch the stuff you like or think is good, not necessarily what is popular. Personally I love having easy access to most of humanitys video creations. For example if I wanted to watch Kurosawas film collection in 1995 I would have been out of luck.

SinisterSlay posted...

I think the problem is there is entire nations hiring bot farms to make the Internet as toxic and misleading as possible.

The problem is there are entire corporations hiring bot farms to make the Internet as toxic and misleading as possible.

The great strength of the Internet is that it makes information available. The great weakness of the Internet is that it does nothing to differentiate between true information and false information. It disseminates lies as easily as facts - and there will ALWAYS be a financial incentive to push your own lies.

SEO manipulation ruins search engines like Google as companies find ways to force their info to the top of the search results and minimize alternatives. Companies and influencers will pay for bot farms to inflate their view counts to give the illusion of popularity, because humans are herd animals who will more easily follow what they perceive to be group consensus. Manufacturers and content producers will bot fake reviews to artificially inflate their own reputation for increased sales. Companies like YouTube and Amazon control their recommendation algorithms, and can nudge them to push whatever product or content they wish, under the illusion that it's somehow catered to your own interests.

We've gotten more and more reliant on asking the Internet for advice and recommendations, but the answers it gives have grown less and less reliable, because it's effectively been bought and paid for. The Internet itself has basically become a shill - but most of us won't see it that way. WAY too many people still believe "Well, it must be true, I saw it on the Internet."

This is also the problem with the push for AI assistants - the AI is pulling from just as many false sources as true ones (if not far more false sources), so whatever answer it spits out is going to sound authoritative and accurate, but will be no more likely to be true that whatever your local homeless man babbles to you when he tells you about how the CIA is secretly a tool of the Mole People and they're beaming signals into his brain to stop him from curing cancer. And there will be an even greater incentive to funnel as much false info into the AI as possible to guarantee that it spits out the answers you want it to (which means companies will spend billions to write fake articles that exist solely to be skimmed by AI, like they already do for SEO).

There is certainly political/ideological manipulation online (from EVERY side, on pretty much EVERY issue). But the real harm isn't coming from nations or activists, it's coming from companies who stand to make billions of dollars from convincing stupid people to believe their version of reality.

And like it or not, corporate manipulation of data has FAR more impact on most people's daily lives than sociopolitical manipulation could ever hope to.



Damn_Underscore posted...

People who are angry thanks to the internet would find a way to be angry without it.

Yes, but they would be silent, mostly impotent, and not making like worse for the rest of us.

Though even beyond that, there's plenty of studies that imply social media absolutely makes people angrier, because it helps fuel the adrenaline rush that people get from being angry. Which is why "Outrage Culture" has become a thing - as large groups of people are basically constantly searching for the next thing to get pissed off about, so they can get their rush. It's not just angry people being angry, it's anger masturbation.

It's like saying that people will addictive personalities will always find something to be addicted to, therefore it doesn't matter if alcoholics drink because if they stayed sober they'd just find something else to be addicted to. The combination of the two is absolutely worse than either separately.

Agreed. Its a tool that was grossly misused. And at this point its destroying faster than its building up.

No, the internet has allowed people to connect in hugely positive ways, I know a number of people who found their partner through random internet social things like games or chats. Being able to work remotely and through computers has helped alot of people, more than any of us know.

Granted it also allows the dregs of society a platform they shouldn't have, nobody should be proud they can't read above an 8th grade and/or think Vaccines are shams or hand their infant child an iphone in place of actual activities just to placate them.

With knowledge comes power. Unfortunately most people's brains aren't fully equipped to wield all that knowledge and power, to discern objective truth from misinformation. Hence their feeble minds are overwhelmed, gullible and easily brainwashed into stupid acts and ideologies.

"The world would be happier and better without the internet"

No. No they wouldn't.

That is like saying the world would be happier with only cable subscriptions. Obivously that can't be true since there are cartoons and animated series that wouldn't have been revived had streaming not been a thing. (Futurama, Gumball, King of the Hill, American Dad?)

Also, coming from someone that is impressed with Wednesday Addams getting her own show and that Christina Ricci guest starred in it (full circle), the internet did at least one thing right since we would probably would have never seen the offshoot if cable execs had something to say about it.

The world wouldn't be better without the internet, but it sure as hell would be better without social media and current internet culture

Muscles posted...

The world wouldn't be better without the internet, but it sure as hell would be better without social media and current internet culture

Social media is just what happens when people are able to instantly connect with each other around the world. If you are interested in connecting the world for other reasons you cant avoid it.

Damn_Underscore posted...

Social media is just what happens when people are able to instantly connect with each other around the world. If you are interested in connecting the world for other reasons you cant avoid it.

Its a fairly recent thing, it didn't really become the main part of the internet until like the early 2010s even if MySpace and Facebook were things before that. I can still remember pre social media internet, things were better back then

Damn_Underscore posted...

Social media is just what happens when people are able to instantly connect with each other around the world

It's the fact that it's not face to face connection. Easy to dehumanize a photo spewing text even if it's a real person on the other side

Part of me will always miss family time in front of the telly that only got 5 channels

Internet was a dessert ... that we decided we should eat as a main course

Roachmeat posted...

No. No they wouldn't.

That is like saying the world would be happier with only cable subscriptions. Obivously that can't be true since there are cartoons and animated series that wouldn't have been revived had streaming not been a thing. (Futurama, Gumball, King of the Hill, American Dad?)

Also, coming from someone that is impressed with Wednesday Addams getting her own show and that Christina Ricci guest starred in it (full circle), the internet did at least one thing right since we would probably would have never seen the offshoot if cable execs had something to say about it.

Another thing is that being forced to watch what the networks want you to watch at certain times isnt something I miss

you had to work around the schedule they had set up and if you missed your favorite show. Reruns werent guaranteed

dont even get me started on how anime fans had to settle for whatever scraps they could find

you are correct though that something like Wednesday never would have happened on cable television

if it did. Theyd probably give it a crappy time slot and no commercials to even tell people it exists

I don't like the implication that easy access to entertainment has made the negatives worth it. I guess I can understand it from the point of view of thinking nothing is going to get better with society, so media consumption is all we have, but it's disturbing to think that some people view it as the pinnacle of living

I dont think many people realize before the internet the simplest things were frustrating and fondly looking back on them because you think those were happier days Is bizarre

NightMareBunny posted...

I dont think many people realize before the internet the simplest things were frustrating and fondly looking back on them because you think those were happier days Is bizarre

I think this is pretty normal or universal, like hating the new generation

NightMareBunny posted...

I dont think many people realize before the internet the simplest things were frustrating and fondly looking back on them because you think those were happier days Is bizarre

I don't think people who've spent most of their lives online understand that most humans who have ever lived were perfectly fine and happy without it.

Speaking as someone who has straddled the line of adoption, I can honestly say that while the Internet has certainly made many things more convenient, none of it was ever really necessary , until the Internet made it necessary (like having to shop online because all your local brick and mortar stores are now out of business, but they're only out of business because so many people switched to shopping online). People only think they can't live without it because they've gotten used to it (and forgotten how to do all the things they used to do without it). But many of its positives are trivial at best, and there's absolutely a case to be made that they don't necessarily outweigh the negatives.

I can absolutely state that almost nothing I've seen will ever convince me that people are happier with the Internet, because pretty much everyone seems to be a spastic, neurotic ball of raw nerves living in a constant state of existential crisis these days, which wasn't really the case 20 years ago, let alone 30, or 40, or even 50 or more (including the time when people were literally learning to duck and cover under their desks at school in case nuclear annihilation and the end of the world happened that afternoon).

Though that does introduce an interesting wrinkle. It really isn't necessarily the existence of the Internet that's the problem. It's the World Wide Web. The Internet's been around since the late 60s, but it really wasn't until the mid-90s (with the advent of the Web) that it became freely accessible (and accessed) by the general public, and another decade or so before "social media" evolved away from Usenet and Message Boards into Myspace and Facebook and Twitter.

A better argument might be that people would be both happier and better off if we still had 2000-era Internet. Because then you'd still have the perks of ease of information look-up, data transfer, file sharing, special interest discussion, and even sites like GameFAQs, but without most of the downsides of the social media era.

There's also a very easy argument to be made that we've all already seen "peak" Internet, and that future experience will always be categorically worse than what has already been, as AI becomes ubiquitous and floods sites like YouTube while 95% of all online discourse just becomes bots talking to each other.

People didnt love the idea of having to track down a pay phone if they wanted to call somebody while away from home

its something you had to accept because there wasnt any other choice

choice is the word because when there is none you will tolerate a lot of stuff you really hate

Last summer I went three weeks without using the internet at all. I don't know if I was necessarily "happier" without it, but by the end of the last week I didn't feel like I missed it anymore.

Nah the internet is great.

But, truthfully, the majority of people using are *ahem* not mentally well enough to handle it lol

Internet is fine. Don't pay attention to social media news and drama..You will be fine. I met some awesome friends in the Transformers community.

NightMareBunny posted...

I dont think many people realize before the internet the simplest things were frustrating and fondly looking back on them because you think those were happier days Is bizarre

Like what? And not just things you can use the internet for now, but things that are actually problems the internet solved. For example, I wouldn't consider grocery pickup a problem solved by the internet, because if there was no internet people wouldn't have conceived of needing to order their groceries ahead of time. Then you have stuff where it's a case of the internet solving a problem of its own creation as PO alluded to.

I'd say the biggest day-to-day thing is I can look up info really fast, but I find a lot of it to be trivial things. Stuff like wondering what that song lyric was or whatever, which are thoughts I've come to find I'm mostly better of letting pass if it keeps me from reaching for the phone yet again. There is more niche stuff I wouldn't know where to look up anywhere else (an example that comes to mind for me is console modding), but in a non-internet world it probably just wouldn't cross my mind.

NightMareBunny posted...

People didnt love the idea of having to track down a pay phone if they wanted to call somebody while away from home

Is this your example? This was already solved by cell phones before cell phones had internet. Unless you're saying it's an example of how tech advancements in general can be a good thing, but I don't think anyone is arguing against that