Why did Bernie lose twice?

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Current Events » Why did Bernie lose twice?
Because the media didn't want him to be President.
lolAmerica
McMarbles posted...
A lot of Bernie stans seem to run on Underpants Gnome logic.

1. Implement ranked choice
2. ?????????
3. Profit!
The point in the first half of his post undercut the point he made in the second half lol

"Bernie had 40% of the vote locked up and 60% was spread among moderates so with ranked choice voting Bernie wins"

Like wtf
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If there was ranked choice voting Bernie wouldn't need to run in the Democratic primary. The whole point of ranked choice is for people to vote who they want and not who they think will win.
I mean I have my doubts about Bernie's strength as a national candidate anyway
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Zikten posted...
The democrat party is still run by conservative dems. Any progressive like Bernie who reaches for the top, will always get shut down by the elites.
Yeah this.
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Doom_Art posted...
I mean I have my doubts about Bernie's strength as a national candidate anyway
We saw Bernie do well with a crowded field. With ranked choice voting anyone else could stay in too. Bloomberg, Chris Christy, Andrew Yang, RFK ect.
All the superdelegates committed to voting to Hilary Clinton from the beginning of the 2016 primary season instead of waiting till after their respective states' primaries to divvy out votes proportionally. This limited the amount of delegates Bernie could win in each of his winning states.

The democratic party passed a rule to prevent this clear unfair act from happening in 2020, but holy hell, the coordination they did to take down Bernie. That was nothing short of surgical. As a Yang Gang fan, 2020 had me completely disillusioned to the Democratic Party with how he and Sanders were treated.

StealThisSheen posted...
I'm not sure this logic tracks. Warren and Bloomberg both stayed in until after Super Tuesday, then dropped within two days of that. Unless you mean Tulsi, but she got such a negligible amount of votes I'm not sure she'd be worth mentioning. Yes, the people who dropped endorsed Biden, but if Bernie could only win by virtue of other people staying in the race, does that really say anything?

Warren staying in siphoned votes from Bernie as they shared similar demographics despite Bernie being on the winning end. It was so clear that Warren's inclusion sabotaged Bernie that even Trump had to tweet to blame Warren for screwing him over.
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Doom_Art posted...
I mean I have my doubts about Bernie's strength as a national candidate anyway

tbh his run in '20 made me lose all faith in his ability to staff. putting nutcases like Briahna Joy Gray in charge of his campaign was almost disqualifying by itself
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You act like I don't know my own way home
corruption
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Better question, why don't the democrats ever correct anybody, particularly Republicans, when the word Socialism is mischaracterized and incorrectly defined?

Same reason.
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P4wn4g3 posted...
Better question, why don't the democrats ever correct anybody, particularly Republicans, when the word Socialism is mischaracterized and incorrectly defined?

Same reason.

Because they don't know what it means. Bernie Sanders doesn't know what it means. He advocated a bunch of social democrat policies which he called socialism like Nordic states have (they aren't socialist). 99% of people don't know what a means of production is let alone what worker control of it would mean.
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ssjevot posted...
He advocated a bunch of social democrat policies which he called socialism like Nordic states have (they aren't socialist).
It's not a coincidence Social democracy and Socialism start with the same root word.
Voidgolem posted...
generally speaking? Because he's running a campaign that's easy to misconstrue against a huge Known Brand figure every time.

I don't understand why people act like it's some huge unexpected thing for the incumbent or other super-public figure to win the primary. Bernie could run on whatever massively-popular platform he wants and he'd still lose when up against hillary or biden because the average person goes "hey I know that name"

people keep trying to play that up as some kind of policy thing when it's really not that deep. That's also why I'm not particularly concerned with this year's election despite what's at stake - because I am reasonably convinced the general public will simply vote for the guy we already have.

There is admittedly even odds that they'll vote for agent orange for the same reasons, but then again a lot of the folks who did last time around died. So.
Basically 5is.
  1. Primary voters are mostly old party loyalists (AKA out of touch dumbasses)
  2. Most voters in general have the political awareness of Jar Jar Binks and vote purely based on name recognition
  3. The media is fucking terrible at their jobs
Thats basically all it takes.
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ButteryMales posted...
It's not a coincidence Social democracy and Socialism start with the same root word.

Lol, I forgot you're like the poster child for Americans who think socialism means government doing stuff. The more stuff government does the more socialist it is!
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shockthemonkey posted...

Neither Klobuchar or Buttigieg were ever budgeting or expecting to stay in till Super Tuesday. That was never the intention and there were never funds for that.

Incorrect.

ST was on March 3rd, and as late as March 1st Buttigieg was pledging to keep running to ST in interviews:

https://www.cpr.org/2020/03/01/democratic-presidential-candidate-pete-buttigieg-pushes-ahead-to-super-tuesday-talks-about-coronavirus-guns-and-more/

The former mayor of South Bend, Indiana, and presidential candidate Pete Buttigieg is looking forward to this week as 14 states, including Colorado, hold primaries for the Democratic nomination.

Thats despite coming up with zero delegates in the South Carolina primary.

Theres no denying the formidable finish that Vice President Biden had, Buttigieg told CPRs Colorado Matters Sunday.

Joe Biden got nearly half of the vote there and Sen. Bernie Sanders came in second.

Buttigieg, who was in a distant fourth place with 8 percent of the vote, said Bidens tremendous support from the black community and the level of trust they have in the former vice president was a huge advantage. But that doesnt stop his campaign from pressing ahead.

What we also have is an insistence on the power of outreach and wanting to continue connecting with all humility. Whether it's black voters in the South, Latino voters in Texas and in the West, or anyone else who rightfully developed a lot of skepticism about newcomers, Buttigieg said.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jimmy-carter-pete-buttigieg-doesnt-know-what-hes-going-to-do-after-south-carolina/

Two days before Super Tuesday, CBS News estimates that Buttigieg is now in third place in the national delegate race, behind Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders and Biden. Buttigieg told reporters that the campaign is approaching Super Tuesday by focusing on reaching the viability threshold in certain congressional districts to pick up delegates.

"We'll be doing a lot of math today and continually assessing what the best places are to make sure that limited resources are deployed," Buttigieg added.

In a call with reporters on Saturday, senior aides said the campaign is looking to minimize Sanders' delegate gains. The campaign detailed in a memo released before the South Carolina debate last week that they are hoping to be within 350 delegates of Sanders after Super Tuesday.

He said he was encouraged by his recent visit to Colorado -- and hopes that will translate to being awarded delegates here.

Super Tuesday is just 3 days after South Carolina. If you've already made it to the SC primary, it costs virtually nothing to just stay in for ST too.

What happened is his donors called him that night and convinced him to drop out:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/01/us/politics/pete-buttigieg-drops-out.html

On a conference call with campaign donors on Sunday evening, Mr. Buttigieg said he had reached the decision with regret but concluded it was the right thing to do, when we looked at the math, according to one person on the call. Without mentioning opponents by name, Mr. Buttigieg said he was concerned about the impact he would have on the race by staying in, saying Democrats needed to field the right kind of nominee against Mr. Trump.

Then Obama called him and strongly implied that there was still a contribution for him to make to the primary:

Mr. Obama did not specifically encourage Mr. Buttigieg to endorse Mr. Biden, said the official, who insisted on anonymity to discuss private conversations. But Mr. Obama did note that Mr. Buttigieg has considerable leverage at the moment and should think about how best to use it.

Story is probably similar for Klobuchar. Regardless of how much of an impact it made we shouldn't dance around the obvious. Money wasn't the issue. They had a very specific goal in sacrificing their campaigns.

Biden himself was low on funds going into ST. He spent everything on SC. He won big on ST and the donations followed. That's how it works.
~ DH ~
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ssjevot posted...
Lol, I forgot you're like the poster child for Americans who think socialism means government doing stuff. The more stuff government does the more socialist it is!
What scale would you put, socialism, democratic socialism, social democracy, and Bernie's politics.

The political compass has a left and right economic scale.
ButteryMales posted...
What scale would you put, socialism, democratic socialism, social democracy, and Bernie's politics.

The political compass has a left and right economic scale.

The political compass is useless. It doesn't tell you the fundamental differences between economic systems. Different flavors of capitalism aren't comparable to socialism. They use a fundamentally different model. One involves the means of production in the hands of private entities. The other has it in the hands of workers. The left/right stuff also conflates a bunch of social issues that have nothing to do with economics. So Americans get confused by left-wing nationalism or a right wing party that supports LGBT or immigrants, because their entire concept of politics is just Democrats and Republicans. It's useless to even talk about socialism because people like you refuse to actually engage with the concept and just go on about government spending, welfare, or some other unrelated policy.
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Because Russia didn't want Bernie to win, they just wanted to coopt him and his supporters to make Hillary lose.
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shockthemonkey posted...
Oh yeah talking about the limited funds means that money wasnt an issue

I said it wasn't the issue. Nice goalpost shifting after I debunked your claim that he "never intended to run until ST."

Most of the candidates had limited resources. Biden himself was struggling with cash and yet he still didn't drop out. Because keeping your campaign open for another 3 days is a trival expense.

shockthemonkey posted...
Biden built a coalition that won him the White House.

Hillary built a coalition, for all her flaws that's undeniable, she was a rockstar fundraiser and saved the national party from bankruptcy while courting so many superdelegates before her election that she was untouchable.

Biden however didn't really build anything, he just got lucky to be picked for VP and gained the favor of fellow party leaders by default. He was never a good candidate on his own, he lost two primaries before 2020 and even in 2020 he lost three primary states in a row before party elites began endorsing him (starting with Jim Clyburn in SC).

Progressives never get picked for VP so it's not like they can do the same thing.
~ DH ~
shockthemonkey posted...
Oh yeah talking about the limited funds means that money wasnt an issue

Biden built a coalition that won him the White House. Thats what youre supposed to do. Thats what Bernie failed at.
All evidence suggests Biden didnt build shit and that the party built the coalition for him. Hence Obama calling people, not Biden.
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ssjevot posted...
The political compass is useless. It doesn't tell you the fundamental differences between economic systems. Different flavors of capitalism aren't comparable to socialism. They use a fundamentally different model. One involves the means of production in the hands of private entities. The other has it in the hands of workers. The left/right stuff also conflates a bunch of social issues that have nothing to do with economics. So Americans get confused by left-wing nationalism or a right wing party that supports LGBT or immigrants, because their entire concept of politics is just Democrats and Republicans. It's useless to even talk about socialism because people like you refuse to actually engage with the concept and just go on about government spending, welfare, or some other unrelated policy.
I'm not the one refusing to engage in the concept. Socialism, Social Democracy, and Democratic Socialism are all related further left of most U.S. Democratic politicians.
Because the US is one of the most hardcore right wing countries in the west, if not the most hardcore?
Diceheist posted...
He was never a good candidate on his own, he lost two primaries before 2020

People WAY overstate Biden's Presidential Campaigns.

He dropped out of the 1988 race in 1987. People act like that was some monumental failure when it was more an aborted campaign because of stupid reasons. He dropped out in 2008 after a single contest (Iowa).

Quite simply, those are almost completely irrelevant, since being VP is what raised his profile enough to finally be considered a viable candidate. Before that he had limited visibility or recognition.
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aarrgus posted...


People WAY overstate Biden's Presidential Campaigns.

He dropped out of the 1988 race in 1987. People act like that was some monumental failure when it was more an aborted campaign because of stupid reasons. He dropped out in 2008 after a single contest (Iowa).

Quite simply, those are almost completely irrelevant, since being VP is what raised his profile enough to finally be considered a viable candidate. Before that he had limited visibility or recognition.

Yes, that's all my point is. He needed the VP bump. He was the proven entity who'd taken part in winning national campaigns and a successful presidency, the most reliable statesman available to take down Trump and restore order.

People ragging on Bernie for "not building a coalition like Biden" is asinine because never in a million years would he get a VP nod. All he had was the profile he built on his own. He didn't get to coast on pre-existing political alliances and perceptions of leadership.

It's more functionally appropriate to compare him to 2008 Biden, and he comes out looking pretty swell there.
~ DH ~
aarrgus posted...
People WAY overstate Biden's Presidential Campaigns.

He dropped out of the 1988 race in 1987. People act like that was some monumental failure when it was more an aborted campaign because of stupid reasons. He dropped out in 2008 after a single contest (Iowa).

Quite simply, those are almost completely irrelevant, since being VP is what raised his profile enough to finally be considered a viable candidate. Before that he had limited visibility or recognition.
The VP thing is legit. Im convinced that if Trump was a former Democratic VP, Democratic primary voters would vote for him. Thats how fucked in the head Democratic primary voters are.
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Sad_Face posted...
Warren staying in siphoned votes from Bernie as they shared similar demographics despite Bernie being on the winning end. It was so clear that Warren's inclusion sabotaged Bernie that even Trump had to tweet to blame Warren for screwing him over.

Warren didn't "stay in," though. She dropped out mere days after most of the others dropped out, and either the day of, or only a day after, Bloomberg dropped out, and Bloomberg took votes from Biden.

People like to say Warren "sabotaged" Bernie, but... She didn't. She and Bloomberg both stayed in until Super Tuesday, and then dropped out within two days of it, before any other major primaries took place.

EDIT: Super Tuesday was March 3rd. Bloomberg dropped out March 4th, Warren dropped out March 5th. Both dropped out before the next major primary. Thus, this idea that Warren "stayed in" and siphoned votes from Bernie doesn't make sense, since both she and Bloomberg stayed in past Super Tuesday, and while Warren likely took more votes from Bernie than Biden, Bloomberg took more votes from Biden than Bernie.

Spoilers: If the basis of your argument is literally Donald Trump, there are problems with your argument.
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He's unelectable
O)))
OudeGeuze posted...
He's unelectable

He did fine in general election polls. Just not primary polls. He's half-electable.
~ DH ~
Diceheist posted...
He did fine in general election polls. Just not primary polls. He's half-electable.
If somehow he ever held the highest office he would get stonewalled harder than Obama did. Republicans and establishment Democrats hate him.
O)))
Why is the argument always that Warren siphoned votes from Bernie and not that Bernie siphoned votes from Warren?

Maybe he should've dropped out if their policies and voters are so similar?

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Diceheist posted...
He did fine in general election polls. Just not primary polls. He's half-electable.
He lost both primaries he was in

In 2016 and 2020 considering how off the polls were, I would doubt that he performs well
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Doom_Art posted...
Why is the argument always that Warren siphoned votes from Bernie and not that Bernie siphoned votes from Warren?

Maybe he should've dropped out if their policies and voters are so similar?
Reddit needs their moment
O)))
Doom_Art posted...
He lost both primaries he was in

Again Biden lost two primaries then won a third, he probably would've been strong in a general but just could not get the primary to work until the Obama association earned him trust with the party.

Bernie will just never get that trust, so he's permanently stuck in 2008 Biden's predicament.
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Doom_Art posted...
Why is the argument always that Warren siphoned votes from Bernie and not that Bernie siphoned votes from Warren?

Maybe he should've dropped out if their policies and voters are so similar?


That's actually a fair point. In 2019 Warren was doing better in the polls than Bernie. She was younger and had better relationships with party leaders and greater potential for an expansive voter coalition and a more substantial policy platform. She hadn't burned all the bridges Bernie did in 2016. Her message was tough but not radical and promised the orderly change voters desired after Trump in contrast to the continuation of chaotic populism Bernie wanted to drag the Dems into following the GOP.

Logically, in the interest of not pissing away the primary to moderates, Bernie should've stepped aside got behind Warren when it became clear he was polling in third. Instead he irresponsibly joined a circular firing squad with the moderates to triangulate her out of contention.

That said, that poor sportsmanship in 2019 doesn't justify Warren's in 2020. She publicly accused Bernie of saying a woman couldn't win and went scorched earth against Bernie and Buttigieg out of spite, basically letting Biden coast, and only went back after him post-SC when it was way too late, when realistically the only pro-progressive play at that point was to just drop out and endorse the one actually managing to win states.
~ DH ~
Diceheist posted...
Again Biden lost two primaries then won a third, he probably would've been strong in a general but just could not get the primary to work until the Obama association earned him trust with the party.

Bernie will just never get that trust, so he's permanently stuck in 2008 Biden's predicament.
Plenty of other politicians have won primaries and the presidency without having been vice president and even disliked by their own parties beforehand

Trump, Obama, Clinton, Reagan, Carter, Kennedy, Eisenhower, FDR, etc.

Has it occurred to you that Bernie is just maybe not great at running campaigns and actually putting together and mobilizing a coalition?
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Diceheist posted...
That said, that poor sportsmanship in 2019 doesn't justify Warren's in 2020. She publicly accused Bernie of saying a woman couldn't win and went scorched earth against Bernie and Buttigieg out of spite, basically letting Biden coast, and only went back after him post-SC when it was way too late, when realistically the only pro-progressive play at that point was to just drop out and endorse the one actually managing to win states.
I mean is it "poor sportsmanship" or is it "you're trying to gain the advantage over your opponents in an election"?

this is where you guys usually lose me.

so much of relitigating the 2016 and 2020 primaries hinges on two points:

  • that Bernie would have won a general election
  • and that Bernie could have won the primary if the media and all his opponents were less mean and unfair to him


like, if Sanders can't win in a primary and the majority of voters don't care for him and the media is too mean to him, then he would also be a fucking disastrous general election candidate if he's incapable of overcoming either of those things
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shockthemonkey posted...
Warren also failed to build the coalition she needed.

She tried more than the others at least. Problem is between party loyalists/moderates going Biden, hardcore progressives/populists going Bernie, and wealthy liberals/casual voters going Buttigieg, all she really had is policy wonks and devout feminists.

Realistically nobody in that race was a good voter coalition builder, hence why the vote split 5 different ways until party leaders grew tired of that and just had everyone endorse the ex-VP. Last coalition builder in this party was Hillary, as much as it hurts to say.

Doom_Art posted...
I mean is it "poor sportsmanship" or is it "you're trying to gain the advantage over your opponents in an election"?

Thing is while the progressives just attacked each other the whole time and never united the moderates came together and dunked on them. It's like neither Bernie nor Warren gave a fuck about their ideology taking the L, just about being right.

Doom_Art posted...
and that Bernie could have won the primary if the media and all his opponents were less mean and unfair to him

Realistically 2016 was a lost cause no matter what but yeah in 2020 if the opposing candidates behaved like Republicans in 2016/progressives in 2020 he could've squeaked out a lead. Mainstream Democrats are just more coordinated than those groups. Not saying they did a bad thing, just that Bernie was playing on hardcore mode.

Most of the time in politics the opponent is purely trying to maximize their chances of winning, not specifically trying to take you down with them even if they can't win.

Doom_Art posted...
like, if Sanders can't win in a primary and the majority of voters don't care for him and the media is too mean to him, then he would also be a fucking disastrous general election candidate if he's incapable of overcoming either of those things

Would they really continue the sabotage when the opponent is literal Donald Trump though?

Doom_Art posted...

Plenty of other politicians have won primaries and the presidency without having been vice president and even disliked by their own parties beforehand

Trump, Obama, Clinton, Reagan, Carter, Kennedy, Eisenhower, FDR, etc.

Has it occurred to you that Bernie is just maybe not great at running campaigns and actually putting together and mobilizing a coalition?

Bernie performed extremely well for the position he was in (nobody independent socialist senator running against Dem. party leaders).

Trump - Republican party. Different dynamics. Their voters hate government to begin with and are more welcoming to outsiders. Celebrities are to the GOP what VPs are to the Dems. Their selfish candidates wouldn't be caught dead uniting the party before Super Tuesday instead of trying to win big. No superdelegates projecting a frontrunner (2016) or imposing the threat of a contested convention (2020). And he was richer than most of the other wealthy conservative scumbags who didn't like him.

Obama - Didn't run against anyone higher ranked than him. Main opponent was a fellow senator.

Clinton - Didn't run against anyone higher ranked than him. Main opponent was a fellow governor.

Reagan - Celebrity governor running in the GOP.

Carter - Didn't run against anyone higher ranked than him. Main opponent was a fellow governor.

Kennedy - Primary was a mess, chosen at the convention.

Eisenhower - Primary was a mess, chosen at the convention.

I don't know if Bernie was strong or Hillary/Biden were weak but the 2008 versions of Bernie (Mike Gravel, Dennis Kucinich) and the 2000 version (Bill Bradley) did far worse than him under similar circumstances.
~ DH ~
aarrgus posted...
People WAY overstate Biden's Presidential Campaigns.

He dropped out of the 1988 race in 1987. People act like that was some monumental failure when it was more an aborted campaign because of stupid reasons. He dropped out in 2008 after a single contest (Iowa).

Quite simply, those are almost completely irrelevant, since being VP is what raised his profile enough to finally be considered a viable candidate. Before that he had limited visibility or recognition.
He dropped out in the 80s because it became public knowledge that he had cheated his way through school.
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PraetorXyn posted...
The VP thing is legit. Im convinced that if Trump was a former Democratic VP, Democratic primary voters would vote for him. Thats how fucked in the head Democratic primary voters are.
No they would not.

Nothing about Trump represents the party beyond those trying to "same thing both sides" the 2 parties.

Democrats are not flocking to Trump just because you slap (D) next to his name.
Zikten posted...
The democrat party is still run by conservative dems. Any progressive like Bernie who reaches for the top, will always get shut down by the elites.

StealThisSheen posted...
Warren didn't "stay in," though. She dropped out mere days after most of the others dropped out, and either the day of, or only a day after, Bloomberg dropped out, and Bloomberg took votes from Biden.

She dropped out after siphoning votes from Sanders. refer to Diceheist's post #66.

Diceheist posted...
Super Tuesday is just 3 days after South Carolina. If you've already made it to the SC primary, it costs virtually nothing to just stay in for ST too.

What happened is his donors called him that night and convinced him to drop out:

And Dice's post talks about the collusion the Biden team did to consolidate votes in his favor. Warren staying in only benefited Biden. Even Trump pointed this out.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/trump-super-tuesday-biden-incredible-warren-spoiler-bloomberg-won-nothing-n1149766

He then repeatedly portrayed Warren as the "spoiler" in an apparent bid to further drive a wedge between her and Sanders and their supporters. Had Warren dropped out before Super Tuesday, Sanders "would've won a lot of states, including Massachusetts, probably Texas, definitely Minnesota. So Bernie would've won states that he lost and he lost fairly easily, but in particular Massachusetts," Trump said.
"I would imagine there are others that he would've picked up," he said of Sanders. "So, Elizabeth Warren was the single biggest factor in the election last night. It would've been a very different thing, and not in a positive way for her, in a very selfish way for her. She was very selfish, from that point of view.

You can point to Bloomberg staying in, but it no way refutes the obvious reported (and I guess legal) collusion the Biden team did. I don't understand how there are people contesting this.
https://i.imgur.com/WmIB016.jpg https://i.imgur.com/53FGj6K.gif
Media and party meddling
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Sad_Face posted...
She dropped out after siphoning votes from Sanders. refer to Diceheist's post #66.

And Dice's post talks about the collusion the Biden team did to consolidate votes in his favor. Warren staying in only benefited Biden. Even Trump pointed this out.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/trump-super-tuesday-biden-incredible-warren-spoiler-bloomberg-won-nothing-n1149766

You can point to Bloomberg staying in, but it no way refutes the obvious reported (and I guess legal) collusion the Biden team did. I don't understand how there are people contesting this.
are we taking Donald Trumps political analysis at face value now
Hee Ho
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ssb_yunglink2 posted...
are we taking Donald Trumps political analysis at face value now

A bunch of candidates dropped out at the last minute while one candidate who had no chance of winning stayed behind. These actions benefit one candidate that was losing horribly while hurting the chances of the favorite to win. The circumstances were so blatantly biased that even the big bad opponent even highlighted that the candidate that stayed in the race screwed the favorite to win.

That is the significance of me pointing it out. Makes sense?
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Current Events » Why did Bernie lose twice?
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