Lurker > red sox 777

What's wrong with this exactly? If you saw someone drowning, would you save them? Would it be wrong if you did?

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2002 Link, 2003 Cloud, 2004 Link, 2005 Link, 2006 Link, 2008 Link, 2010 Link, 2011 Cloud.
Link 6, Cloud 2

Crono > Mario forever

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2002 Link, 2003 Cloud, 2004 Link, 2005 Link, 2006 Link, 2008 Link, 2010 Link, 2011 Cloud.
Link 6, Cloud 2

Cloud's still got this.

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2002 Link, 2003 Cloud, 2004 Link, 2005 Link, 2006 Link, 2008 Link, 2010 Link, 2011 Cloud.
Link 6, Cloud 2

Roar. Hail to the king.

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2002 Link, 2003 Cloud, 2004 Link, 2005 Link, 2006 Link, 2008 Link, 2010 Link, 2011 Cloud.
Link 6, Cloud 2

Notice I said prior to Mario/Cloud.

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2002 Link, 2003 Cloud, 2004 Link, 2005 Link, 2006 Link, 2008 Link, 2010 Link, 2011 Cloud.
Link 6, Cloud 2

Cloud got more votes in losing that 2002 match than any character had ever gotten in a contest match prior to that day. I'm fairly sure he got more votes than any previous poll option in any Gamefaqs poll too. As anomalous as that poll was though, in my opinion just as much or more credit for Cloud's being underrated in the final stats has to go to SFF in Link/Mario. Mario was legitimately very strong in the 2nd half of that contest (votals doubled from the first half, so he was probably quite a different character strengthwise).

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2002 Link, 2003 Cloud, 2004 Link, 2005 Link, 2006 Link, 2008 Link, 2010 Link, 2011 Cloud.
Link 6, Cloud 2

Looks like Link's going to get that 75% after the ASV hits in a few hours.

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2002 Link, 2003 Cloud, 2004 Link, 2005 Link, 2006 Link, 2008 Link, 2010 Link, 2011 Cloud.
Link 6, Cloud 2

St. George, Utah. Excellent place, and super cheap cost of living.

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2002 Link, 2003 Cloud, 2004 Link, 2005 Link, 2006 Link, 2008 Link, 2010 Link, 2011 Cloud.
Link 6, Cloud 2

The only way a Female Villains contest could be remotely interesting is if instead of facing each other, all the female villains faced Link, every day. Whoever can manage to break 20% wins.

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2002 Link, 2003 Cloud, 2004 Link, 2005 Link, 2006 Link, 2008 Link, 2010 Link, 2011 Cloud.
Link 6, Cloud 2

Good show, hero of time. It means just about nothing for the Link/Cloud match though.

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2002 Link, 2003 Cloud, 2004 Link, 2005 Link, 2006 Link, 2008 Link, 2010 Link, 2011 Cloud.
Link 6, Cloud 2

The anti-votes....

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2002 Link, 2003 Cloud, 2004 Link, 2005 Link, 2006 Link, 2008 Link, 2010 Link, 2011 Cloud.
Link 6, Cloud 2

10% on Mega Man/Dr. Wily (+48)

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2002 Link, 2003 Cloud, 2004 Link, 2005 Link, 2006 Link, 2008 Link, 2010 Link, 2011 Cloud.
Link 6, Cloud 2

Link vs. Ganondorf - 73.00%

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2002 Link, 2003 Cloud, 2004 Link, 2005 Link, 2006 Link, 2008 Link, 2010 Link, 2011 Cloud.
Link 6, Cloud 2

I might even go as far as to say that the phrase "actually made the biggest difference" is logically incoherent.

What does that mean? That there was the biggest difference between what the player actually produced and what a replacement player would have accomplished? That makes sense, but then you are reverting back to "would." The player whose team got the best results? Obviously not what the MVP is for. The player with the best stats? Unless you can identify how those stats impact winning, that doesn't answer the question of who is the most valuable player, though it comes closer to the "best" player. Though it's probably true that there is no such thing as best player beyond most valuable player anyway, so it doesn't help much anyway.

Valuable is valuable is valuable. The question to ask if you want to compare 2 players is: which one do I want on my team? I think the better argument against Peyton Manning being MVP is that an injured player is not valuable, rather than that a player who didn't play is not valuable.

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2002 Link, 2003 Cloud, 2004 Link, 2005 Link, 2006 Link, 2008 Link, 2010 Link, 2011 Cloud.
Link 6, Cloud 2

"would" is the incorrect term for something perceived to be earned/deserved. and dome players should never win anything.

Nothing in the phrase "most valuable player" suggests it is earned. The most valuable diamond, the most valuable house, etc. certainly didn't earn it.

I don't necessarily agree with MWC's position, but it is logical.

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2002 Link, 2003 Cloud, 2004 Link, 2005 Link, 2006 Link, 2008 Link, 2010 Link, 2011 Cloud.
Link 6, Cloud 2

That's true. If you want then, I guess we can narrow the comparison to FFVII vs. LOZ then. LOZ still has much wider gaps: Link, then Cloud, then Sephiroth, Vincent, and Tifa, then Ganon and Zelda, then Zack, Aeris, Cid, and possibly many others before LOZ's #4.

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2002 Link, 2003 Cloud, 2004 Link, 2005 Link, 2006 Link, 2008 Link, 2010 Link, 2011 Cloud.
Link 6, Cloud 2

That's more of a result of Zelda only having three major characters in the series and each FF game having a brand new cast. It's a lot easier to have big strength gaps when you have ten times fewer the characters to choose from.

There are plenty of Zelda characters to choose from. They're all weak because the voters don't like them very much, which is precisely why we can say that they are not drones. If they were drones, it wouldn't matter how bad the characters actually were, the voters would support them because they were in Zelda games. But they don't do that.

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2002 Link, 2003 Cloud, 2004 Link, 2005 Link, 2006 Link, 2008 Link, 2010 Link, 2011 Cloud.
Link 6, Cloud 2

But can you be the most valuable player when you don't even play?

Good point. I guess you could make the argument that he is still a football player, just one that's temporarily not playing. Like a soldier who returns home for a visit is still a soldier. Or, a teacher is still a teacher during summer vacation.

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2002 Link, 2003 Cloud, 2004 Link, 2005 Link, 2006 Link, 2008 Link, 2010 Link, 2011 Cloud.
Link 6, Cloud 2

Although I will say that the FF fans seem just as discerning. There's FFVII, and then a colossal drop to X, VIII, and VI, and then a big one to IX, and a huge one to games like IV and XII. Same with the characters, as we have titans like Cloud and fodder like Celes. It's the same story with lots of other series. RBY is a monster and any Pokemon game released after 2000 is fodder. Super Mario Kart can hang with Super Metroid while Mario Kart Wii struggles with Phoenix Wright. It's probably similar for every single - or at least a large majority of - longtime series.

On the games side, FF has about the same strength gaps as Zelda, yes, but not on the character side. We have Link, then Cloud, then 5 FF characters (Sephiroth, Squall, Vincent, Tifa, and Auron) before getting to Ganon and Zelda. And then there are a ton of FF characters between Zelda and LOZ's #4. For Pokemon, GSC held up very well against RBY, far better than any Zelda game would against OOT or any FF game against FFVII.

I think the entire GameFAQs voterbase just needs to be given credit for being a smart, discerning bunch, and all the talk about awful or mindless fanbases around here should only be used jokingly. This site draws a pretty smart bunch.

This is true though. The voters are smart, and they've shown it many times.

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2002 Link, 2003 Cloud, 2004 Link, 2005 Link, 2006 Link, 2008 Link, 2010 Link, 2011 Cloud.
Link 6, Cloud 2

While counterintuitive, MWC's reasoning is completely logical and his conclusion could be seen as the natural and unavoidable consequence of that reasoning. The MVP is the Most Valuable Player. The most valuable player is the one who would make the biggest difference to a random team if he were added to it. Actually playing is only evidentiary in nature- actual play is used to prove who is the most valuable. But it's only a matter of evidence, not a matter of the substantive question of who is the MVP.

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2002 Link, 2003 Cloud, 2004 Link, 2005 Link, 2006 Link, 2008 Link, 2010 Link, 2011 Cloud.
Link 6, Cloud 2

It feels like eons ago that Heroic Mario would actually support Ganondorf over Vincent. The old Heroic Mario was so much more fun.

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2002 Link, 2003 Cloud, 2004 Link, 2005 Link, 2006 Link, 2008 Link, 2010 Link, 2011 Cloud.
Link 6, Cloud 2

I get that, but I'm wondering if guys realize that Ganon actually isn't that big leech when compared to most gaming villains. It seems that you couldn't possibly care less, but I'm wondering all the same.

Your argument was somewhat mind-blowing to me, because it upset a well-established line of thinking I've had since the GOTD contest, which I believe has very solid reasoning. Which is that Zelda is the least dronish major fanbase on the site, where a drone is someone who blindly votes for anything from the fanbase because he is a fan of that fanbase.

Zelda has extremely large strength gaps between the strongest entries in it and weaker ones: Ocarina of Time is as far ahead of Majora's Mask as Chrono Trigger is ahead of Chrono Cross, a point that really needed to be ground home to the people saying that MM won by being an OOT proxy. (You don't want to see an OOT proxy, because it would crush everything except OOT and FFVII). On the character side, Zelda has a colossal dropoff from #1 to #2, and then another colossal dropoff from #3 to #4. This indicates that Zelda fans do not blindly vote for anything for Zelda: they are discerning and vote for what they actually like.

On reflection, it's true that other series also have extremely weak villains, but they still have much (relatively) stronger #2s than Ganon. Sonic has Knuckles, Mega Man has Zero, FFX has Tidus (#2 to Auron, while Sin and Seymour are nowhere in sight). Crono has Magus or Frog before we need to get to Lavos. So Ganondorf isn't a huge leech for a villain, but he is a huge leech for a series' #2 character.

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2002 Link, 2003 Cloud, 2004 Link, 2005 Link, 2006 Link, 2008 Link, 2010 Link, 2011 Cloud.
Link 6, Cloud 2

It is kinda funny how Ganondorf gets crapped on for being a "Link leech," but he'd beat the likes of Wily, Robotnik, and Ridley worse than Link would beat Mega Man, Sonic, or Samus.

My first reaction upon seeing this was to reply that no, Ganon wouldn't beat those villains as badly as Link beats the heroes, because Legend of Zelda has the greatest strength gaps between the top and lower entries among all major entities in these contests, but on second thought, you are actually right. Nonetheless, I think Ganondorf is extraordinarily weak relative to Link than most series' #2 is compared to #1. Link:Ganondorf is probably about the same as Crono:Lavos.

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2002 Link, 2003 Cloud, 2004 Link, 2005 Link, 2006 Link, 2008 Link, 2010 Link, 2011 Cloud.
Link 6, Cloud 2

That's okay, after Cloud vs. Squall, Cloud will be able to show off some powerful hype building numbers of his own for the first time since 2006!

Actually, I think he'll probably do so earlier, in the Snake match. 60% on Snake just won't seem so impressive if Link triples MM, even though it actually is.

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2002 Link, 2003 Cloud, 2004 Link, 2005 Link, 2006 Link, 2008 Link, 2010 Link, 2011 Cloud.
Link 6, Cloud 2

Based on Kratos/Charizard/Mario last year wouldn't that happen? >_>

Yes, Mario/Megaman SFF (plus any Charizard boost between rounds if you believe in that) made Megaman and Kratos roughly equals. So I guess if you look at it that way, Link had better break 75% on an SFF'd Megaman team if he wants to keep pace with Cloud!

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2002 Link, 2003 Cloud, 2004 Link, 2005 Link, 2006 Link, 2008 Link, 2010 Link, 2011 Cloud.
Link 6, Cloud 2

However, let's entertain that notion for the people still hoping Cloud can win the contest. If Link somehow pulls a tripling out his elvish ass and you still want to assume Link/Ganon = Cloud/Seph, then going by pure stats, Kratos and Zeus would put up 46.5% against Mega Man. Yeah, that's happening.

SFF. As I recall, last year's raw stats tell us that Crono gets pretty close to a doubling on Sonic. Link is the King of SFF for a reason.

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2002 Link, 2003 Cloud, 2004 Link, 2005 Link, 2006 Link, 2008 Link, 2010 Link, 2011 Cloud.
Link 6, Cloud 2

I think the thing is that the format has been amplifying margins of victory and SFF. But I'd be surprised if he got 75% too. Not sure if I should root for that. On the one hand, tripling a Noble Niner is something Link has never done before, and as far as Link/Cloud goes, how much Link can SFF Megaman into the ground really doesn't matter. On the other hand, it will mean enduring louder and louder complaints about Link being invincible, coupled with refusal to even contemplate the idea of him losing, for another week before the Link/Cloud match.

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2002 Link, 2003 Cloud, 2004 Link, 2005 Link, 2006 Link, 2008 Link, 2010 Link, 2011 Cloud.
Link 6, Cloud 2

Squall has had literally two contests ever where his last match wasn't against Snake or Cloud.

2002, 2006, 2007, 2010 - Snake
2004, 2008, 2011 (probably) - Cloud

This is getting a bit ridiculous!

(I know you were talking about the bracket making in this contest in general, but yeah, just felt like venting!)

Ouch. Though if you don't believe in Snake/Squall SFF, that doesn't look nearly as bad. Bacon should give Squall a shot at a lower Noble Niner next time, with the winner rewarded by facing Link.

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2002 Link, 2003 Cloud, 2004 Link, 2005 Link, 2006 Link, 2008 Link, 2010 Link, 2011 Cloud.
Link 6, Cloud 2

Cloud/Seph will probably break 80% on Squall/Seifer after the crushing SFF. 80% in the quarterfinals.....that would be a new record and pretty incredible.

I don't think Link/Ganon would break 75% on Frog/Magus or Alucard/Dracula. Link was a ways away from that against Alucard last year, and adding the rivalries probably doesn't change that too much. And for Frog/Magus, blowouts are hard in Nintendo vs. Square matches. These kinds of matches are the ones that CT excels at- it's never had a bad performance against high level Nintendo heads up. Magus overperformed a lot the last time he faced Link.

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2002 Link, 2003 Cloud, 2004 Link, 2005 Link, 2006 Link, 2008 Link, 2010 Link, 2011 Cloud.
Link 6, Cloud 2