| Board List | |
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| Topic | UK chap jailed for rape thousand miles away for getting 14yo to attack 1yo niece |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/15/17 9:15:05 PM #2 | WesternMedia posted... 80/80 WesternMedia posted... from Florida --- "I can i i everything else," Bob reportedly said. Alice replied: "Balls have zero to me to me to me..." (Facebook AIs talking to each other) |
| Topic | Which natural disasters scare you da most? |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/15/17 8:53:34 PM #8 | gigantic big, fat Ds raining from da sky --- "I can i i everything else," Bob reportedly said. Alice replied: "Balls have zero to me to me to me..." (Facebook AIs talking to each other) |
| Topic | LIVE: Protesters walking through streets, attempting to shut down highway. |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/15/17 8:42:06 PM #9 | Capn Circus posted...
what the fuck are you doing --- "I can i i everything else," Bob reportedly said. Alice replied: "Balls have zero to me to me to me..." (Facebook AIs talking to each other) |
| Topic | None of you leftist believed me when i told you about the Awan's months ago. |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/15/17 8:15:49 PM #13 | Antifar posted... What the fuck is an Awan This... and what belonging to the Awan did TC tell us about months ago? There is a word after "Awan's" that is missing because TC forgot to include it in the title. --- "I can i i everything else," Bob reportedly said. Alice replied: "Balls have zero to me to me to me..." (Facebook AIs talking to each other) |
| Topic | 17 y/o who sent a picture of his PENIS to a 22 y/o Girl is now a SEX OFFENDER!! |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/15/17 8:11:03 PM #11 | frozenshock posted... Full Throttle posted..."Do you like it babe? It's for you. And for your daughter babe" yeah I had this reaction as well edit: also, I love the fact that PENIS is in all caps in the topic title. --- "I can i i everything else," Bob reportedly said. Alice replied: "Balls have zero to me to me to me..." (Facebook AIs talking to each other) |
| Topic | You think Anti-theism is on the rise? |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/15/17 8:02:41 PM #32 | The Admiral posted... Yes, and I see that as a negative, because the people who are most anti-religious live in countries where the majority religion is not Islam. And they're also not targeting the anger towards Islam. I took the liberty of cutting down the bushes you were beating around. --- "I can i i everything else," Bob reportedly said. Alice replied: "Balls have zero to me to me to me..." (Facebook AIs talking to each other) |
| Topic | You think Anti-theism is on the rise? |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/15/17 7:59:38 PM #31 | -Gavirulax- posted... Not nearly as much as I would like. --- "I can i i everything else," Bob reportedly said. Alice replied: "Balls have zero to me to me to me..." (Facebook AIs talking to each other) |
| Topic | This 36 y/o Football Fan is BANNED after he called a Black Couple the N-WORD!! |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/15/17 6:55:02 PM #5 | death penalty --- "I can i i everything else," Bob reportedly said. Alice replied: "Balls have zero to me to me to me..." (Facebook AIs talking to each other) |
| Topic | Mom stabbed boyfriend after finding him raping her 12 year old daughter |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/15/17 6:26:59 PM #55 | TheRealDill2000 posted... when man was created. hmm, how curious --- "I can i i everything else," Bob reportedly said. Alice replied: "Balls have zero to me to me to me..." (Facebook AIs talking to each other) |
| Topic | This Kid asked Tomi Lahren for a SELFIE then called her a RACIST PIECE OF S***!! |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/15/17 6:12:32 PM #13 | Full Throttle posted... expressiong support for abortion. so she can't be THAT bad... --- "I can i i everything else," Bob reportedly said. Alice replied: "Balls have zero to me to me to me..." (Facebook AIs talking to each other) |
| Topic | Mom stabbed boyfriend after finding him raping her 12 year old daughter |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/15/17 6:05:47 PM #46 | Questionmarktarius posted... LightHawKnight posted...A single stab sure, but 5 times? It isn't that hard to hit a major artery with 5 stabs. also, article says it was a pocket knife --- "I can i i everything else," Bob reportedly said. Alice replied: "Balls have zero to me to me to me..." (Facebook AIs talking to each other) |
| Topic | CE, seems like the type of people who side against Gordon on kitchen nightmares |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/15/17 5:21:51 PM #10 | TheVipaGTS posted... without the overdone drama. I've found this about a lot of UK vs. US reality shows. Big Brother especially. --- "I can i i everything else," Bob reportedly said. Alice replied: "Balls have zero to me to me to me..." (Facebook AIs talking to each other) |
| Topic | CE, seems like the type of people who side against Gordon on kitchen nightmares |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/15/17 5:14:54 PM #2 | Amy's Baking Company did nothing wrong --- "I can i i everything else," Bob reportedly said. Alice replied: "Balls have zero to me to me to me..." (Facebook AIs talking to each other) |
| Topic | thoughts on people who consume marijuana daily |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/15/17 1:50:40 PM #33 | I drink and smoke every night (generally, will take breaks sometimes). I don't see myself as an addict. Some people have, most don't. Never do either at work (I did at a previous job, but that was in context. No such context at current job, so no desire to do so), not during the day on days off (rare exception on special occasions), I don't drive, so driving under the influence isn't an issue. As for getting into trouble, I've had 2 noise complaints where cops have shown up, one more than 10 years ago, the other was 9, maybe 8 years ago. In contrast, I've had to deal with cops twice in the past 6 months because of pokemon go >_>. Never been in a fight, never been kicked out of a bar (been denied entry a few times). I'm more productive after a few drinks than sober. Not so much after smoking, but I don't smoke when I intend to get anything done, so there is no interference. --- Place-holder sig because new phone and old sigs not saved :/ |
| Topic | BREAKING NEWS explosion in London subway |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/15/17 12:54:39 PM #142 | Rika_Furude posted... Izual_Reborn posted...Because taking on risk, no matter how small, is a bad game theory when there is no benefit to winning. Because having a personal "in your face" moment is of the utmost importance when it comes to acts of terrorism --- Place-holder sig because new phone and old sigs not saved :/ |
| Topic | Whether you are for or against abortion |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/15/17 12:45:26 PM #204 | Vindris_SNH posted... ImTheMacheteGuy posted...So as I said, respond to 4 If you want to ignore the rest. That's reasonable. There are people who don't even accept case-by-case logic. She's 12? Doesn't matter. Rape victim? Doesn't matter. Incest? Doesn't matter. Fetus is vegetative and experiencing constant seizures due to major brain malformities? Doesn't matter. Fetus literally already died and mother will too from septic shock? Doesn't matter. They do not give any fucks whatsoever. You clearly are not one of those types, so good on you for agreeing that cases should be assessed in context on an individual basis. The pro-life view in general would be more respected if more pro-life people were like that, as opposed to having "no abortion ever for any reason whatsoever" garbagethought. --- Place-holder sig because new phone and old sigs not saved :/ |
| Topic | Whether you are for or against abortion |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/15/17 12:14:13 PM #202 | Vindris_SNH posted... ImTheMacheteGuy posted...I just do not believe that your perception of abortion would be literally identical to what it is now had you never once so much as dabbled in religion. Please do not surrender control of your response choices to me. If you don't respond to my entire posts and just select certain parts, I will intentionally lead you to reply to specific things while ignoring the rest, which I will then call you out for doing. You don't want that. You failed one test already with your "lol" post. --- Place-holder sig because new phone and old sigs not saved :/ |
| Topic | Whether you are for or against abortion |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/15/17 12:04:13 PM #200 | Vindris_SNH posted... ImTheMacheteGuy posted...they at not nonsensical in the slightest. So as I said, respond to 4 If you want to ignore the rest. --- Place-holder sig because new phone and old sigs not saved :/ |
| Topic | Whether you are for or against abortion |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/15/17 12:03:05 PM #199 | Vindris_SNH posted... ImTheMacheteGuy posted...First, abortions didn't exist back then. Second, the bible is the basis of christianty, of which you are a follower. Your beliefs may be based on your morals and values, but as a christian, you have the conditioning and predisposition to follow the morals and values of christianity, on at least a foundation level. It's not even necessarily conscious. It speaks to the motives behind your arguments. I didn't say it invalidates them. Maybe someone else did, but that's not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing about your stubbornness to realize and accept that your beliefs ARE linked to your religion. What I am not saying... A) you are religious. B) you are pro-life A directly caused B. What I am saying... A) you are religious. ?) you are pro-life A is the first step in a chain of perception that may have any number of links and branches. In the end, ? ultimately resulted from A, but with a number of other links in the chain, displacing it from A but still keeping the connection. It's like evolution. Humans evolving from apes was a long and drawn out process. It wasn't just one day a pregnant ape popped a full-on human out of her vagina. I just do not believe that your perception of abortion would be literally identical to what it is now had you never once so much as dabbled in religion. I am not saying your argument as it is now would be logical if you were not religious, but somehow ISN'T logical simply because you are religious. That wouldn't make sense. --- Place-holder sig because new phone and old sigs not saved :/ |
| Topic | Whether you are for or against abortion |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/15/17 11:51:34 AM #197 | Vindris_SNH posted... ChromaticAngel posted...ok, just stop for a second. Incorrect. (Side note: aside from "life begins at conception" which I do not believe, the rest of you pro-choice argument seems sound at first glance) Back to the questions... they at not nonsensical in the slightest. 1. If children can be claimed as dependents, so should zygotes, embryos and fetuses. They are no less dependent than birthed children. 2. If it is illegal for a person cannot bring their child into a bar, it would be illegal for a pregnant woman to enter a bar. This one is more of a stretch than others. First, she shouldn't be drinking if pregnant (is this illegal? I'm curious). Second, a child in a bar could be the child of the owner. Obviously it is illegal to serve alcohol to anyone under 21 in the US, but there are cases when people under 21 can be in bars. 3. I'm actually not sure where this one is going. 4. This one is important. What is to be done in a case where a woman requires a medical procedure that endangers the life of the unborn, but can't be neglected due to the fact that the woman's life is in danger without the procedure? A. Do it, but unborn is at grave risk. B. Don't do it, but woman is at grave risk. When the rights of 2 recognized lives conflict, which rights take priority? Even if you choose to ignore the other questions, you must answer this one. 5. When you imprison a parent, you don't lock their non-convict kids up too. Imprisoning a pregnant woman would mean imprisoning an innocent life along with the convict. 6. This is another strange one. I mean you can't just remove a fetus from a woman because she is a child abuser. It speaks more the rights of the child after it has been born. --- Place-holder sig because new phone and old sigs not saved :/ |
| Topic | Whether you are for or against abortion |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/15/17 11:28:17 AM #192 | Vindris_SNH posted... ImTheMacheteGuy posted...That_Happened posted...Vindris_SNH posted...I wasn't trying to use that statement as a logical argument. I wasn't trying to appeal to anyone's prejudices. I was expressing my opinion. I have 1 unread notification for over 100 mentions. I don't ever check it. First, abortions didn't exist back then. Second, the bible is the basis of christianty, of which you are a follower. Your beliefs may be based on your morals and values, but as a christian, you have the conditioning and predisposition to follow the morals and values of christianity, on at least a foundation level. It's not even necessarily conscious. "But the bible doesn't say anything about abortion!" It also doesn't say anything about guns, or airplanes or the internet or vaccines or robotic prosthetic limbs or carbon emissions or cell phones or air conditioning or credit cards or football or fast food. Why? That stuff wasn't around back then. When something post-biblical comes into existence, people form opinions about it. Religious people form religion-oriented opinions because they form opinions based on their morals and values, which tend to be rooted in religion, even when they aren't specifically told by their text, their community, their leaders and peers to believe such things. It's not more complicated than that. --- Place-holder sig because new phone and old sigs not saved :/ |
| Topic | Transgender rapist who was moved to womens jail segregated after making advances |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/15/17 11:01:01 AM #70 | WesternMedia posted... prisons should be for sex I mean... --- Place-holder sig because new phone and old sigs not saved :/ |
| Topic | Mother has sex with son, says it's incredible and that it's not incest. |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/15/17 10:59:53 AM #28 | jumi posted... ImTheMacheteGuy posted...Damn it I was going to make a reference to a tv show but just mentioning the name of the show would be spoilers and there is really no way to hint at it without spoiling it Actually no. Not that show. Same network though. I'll put a hint in spoiler tags. --- Place-holder sig because new phone and old sigs not saved :/ |
| Topic | Hillary Clinton thinks the moral of 1984 was to trust the media *HRC confirms* |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/15/17 10:56:53 AM #64 | Mal try to go 3 days without using the words "goalposts" or "projecting" I will probably add more words to the list. --- Place-holder sig because new phone and old sigs not saved :/ |
| Topic | Controversial GIRL Voted Most Beautiful in the World at 10 is now SIXTEEN!! |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/14/17 10:22:46 PM #6 | no "she's average" choice? :/ --- "I can i i everything else," Bob reportedly said. Alice replied: "Balls have zero to me to me to me..." (Facebook AIs talking to each other) |
| Topic | Hey gurl do you have a little asian in you? |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/14/17 9:43:36 PM #17 | LittleRoyal posted... Find out what? 100/100 topic over --- "I can i i everything else," Bob reportedly said. Alice replied: "Balls have zero to me to me to me..." (Facebook AIs talking to each other) |
| Topic | This California Dad is OUTRAGED that his 13 y/o Daughter was called a SLUT!! |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/14/17 7:46:00 PM #7 | eston posted... This man needs Jesus This is the 2nd most disgusting and detestable stance anyone could take in a post in this topic... --- "I can i i everything else," Bob reportedly said. Alice replied: "Balls have zero to me to me to me..." (Facebook AIs talking to each other) |
| Topic | Whether you are for or against abortion |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/14/17 6:53:51 PM #164 | PiOverlord posted... I am against abortion, so you aren't exactly winning me over. Yes, that's nice. Thank you for stopping by. --- Place-holder sig because new phone and old sigs not saved :/ |
| Topic | Whether you are for or against abortion |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/14/17 6:50:36 PM #163 | That_Happened posted... Vindris_SNH posted...I wasn't trying to use that statement as a logical argument. I wasn't trying to appeal to anyone's prejudices. I was expressing my opinion. It's almost like he had this "brilliant" idea one day... "I'm religious and pro-life, but when I argue with secular people who are not pro-life, they don't take me seriously and I can't convince them I'm right! Maybe if I claim my pro-life views to be secular, they will listen..." And then he cites a source of secular pro-life views written by someone who basically prefaces her arguments with "Yep I am a pro-life atheist and when I've written stuff before, people have totally accused me me of being religious and only pretending to be atheist. That totally isn't true, but I have to mention that to the readers in case they think that." (Maybe she is, maybe she isn't. Who's to say? I personally do not care. The article didn't have enough substance) --- Place-holder sig because new phone and old sigs not saved :/ |
| Topic | Whether you are for or against abortion |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/14/17 6:42:45 PM #161 | Asherlee10 posted... Zeeak4444 posted...@Asherlee10 sorry, too lazy to format the 7 quote cap. Literally every single topic duckbear makes about a crime being committed (and all topics everyone else makes about a crime being committed), there tend to be at least 20 people calling for execution. It is without fail. --- Place-holder sig because new phone and old sigs not saved :/ |
| Topic | Whether you are for or against abortion |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/14/17 6:38:12 PM #160 | LittleRoyal posted... ImTheMacheteGuy posted...LittleRoyal posted...I don't give myself up easily Sure you did. --- Place-holder sig because new phone and old sigs not saved :/ |
| Topic | Hillary Clinton thinks the moral of 1984 was to trust the media *HRC confirms* |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/14/17 6:35:32 PM #48 | Mal_Fet posted... Asherlee10 posted...I thought it was propaganda in 1984, not free press. Is that not correct? Good thing we can still trust breitbart and infowars right? --- Place-holder sig because new phone and old sigs not saved :/ |
| Topic | Hillary Clinton thinks the moral of 1984 was to trust the media *HRC confirms* |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/14/17 6:33:43 PM #47 | Mal_Fet posted... ImTheMacheteGuy posted...Mal_Fet posted...Asherlee10 posted...Yes, I'm lost as to how the excerpt is relevant to the topic title. I mean, people who are freakshows probably say this. I have no idea. I don't watch any of them. I'm not just gonna believe they are because a dickhead and his dickhead followers say they are :P *shrug emoticon* --- Place-holder sig because new phone and old sigs not saved :/ |
| Topic | Well. I definitely just got spanked by a stranger. |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/14/17 6:29:58 PM #295 | On the topic of pics, I know a girl on another board who is short, Asian and wears glasses. She often posts pics, usually at gaming or game music events (typically selfies and often with people who are known in that industry, including I think a Kingdom Hearts composer possibly?) and afaik, she has never been harassed or messed with or anything. Of course, it isn't CE, so whether or not that would be the case if she was on here, who knows. --- Place-holder sig because new phone and old sigs not saved :/ |
| Topic | Whether you are for or against abortion |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/14/17 5:31:12 PM #133 | Vindris_SNH posted... ImTheMacheteGuy posted...Vindris_SNH posted...That_Happened posted... You have less credibility now for having contradicted yourself as much as you've been shown to have done. As a result, you and any other things you have said can not be taken seriously. You asked him to list examples of you using emotional appeal. He provided countless examples. Now it is "deflection" because "well that was another topic." That topic was on the same subject. I remember it well. The rest of the stuff you've said isn't any less valid. You are right about that... but not in the way you think ;) --- Place-holder sig because new phone and old sigs not saved :/ |
| Topic | Whether you are for or against abortion |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/14/17 5:21:13 PM #124 | Asherlee10 posted... Vindris_SNH posted...Incorrect. This is why I'm pro-life: Yeah, it's mostly slippery slope garbage. "If the preborn are not people, abortion should be legal up until the literal moment of birth. You don't want THAT do you? D: If preborn ARE people, we have moral obligation to give them the same rights as the living because if abortion the day after conception is okay, we are on a slippery slope that will mean it's okay to kill a 4 year old because of an abusive home! You don't want that do you? D: Why not middle ground? Because science doesn't know enough yet. *shrug emoji*" It is literally 100% emotional appeal. --- Place-holder sig because new phone and old sigs not saved :/ |
| Topic | Whether you are for or against abortion |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/14/17 5:11:54 PM #116 | Vindris_SNH posted... That_Happened posted... Actually it's called discrediting, and he is doing a damn good job of it. --- Place-holder sig because new phone and old sigs not saved :/ |
| Topic | Hillary Clinton thinks the moral of 1984 was to trust the media *HRC confirms* |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/14/17 5:10:12 PM #40 | Mal_Fet posted... Asherlee10 posted...Yes, I'm lost as to how the excerpt is relevant to the topic title. It wasn't even the media though. It was government propaganda. --- Place-holder sig because new phone and old sigs not saved :/ |
| Topic | Hillary Clinton thinks the moral of 1984 was to trust the media *HRC confirms* |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/14/17 5:08:37 PM #39 | Mal_Fet posted... Soviet_Poland posted...It's obvious to anyone with a reading comprehension greater than a 6th grade level to have "the press" be taken to mean in the context of journalistic integrity of the profession. That one guy said "people should only get their news directly from the president." --- Place-holder sig because new phone and old sigs not saved :/ |
| Topic | Whether you are for or against abortion |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/14/17 5:03:38 PM #102 | Tmaster148 posted... ImTheMacheteGuy posted...I also like "scientific fact" and "isn't exactly scientific" Yeah. "Scientific fact: life, aka personhood begins at conception. However, defining personhood isn't exactly scientific." I will never be able to take this guy seriously now, if there was a chance I ever would have. --- Place-holder sig because new phone and old sigs not saved :/ |
| Topic | Whether you are for or against abortion |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/14/17 4:58:49 PM #95 | I also like "scientific fact" and "isn't exactly scientific" --- Place-holder sig because new phone and old sigs not saved :/ |
| Topic | Whether you are for or against abortion |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/14/17 4:57:01 PM #93 | Asherlee10 posted... Vindris_SNH posted... Fixed his post in your quote for you :) --- Place-holder sig because new phone and old sigs not saved :/ |
| Topic | Whether you are for or against abortion |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/14/17 4:50:30 PM #90 | That_Happened posted... Vindris_SNH posted...Feel free to cite and explain a single emotional appeal I've made in this thread. I remember that conversation. Well done :) "I won't calm down. This is worth getting fired up over. This is not emotion btw." --- Place-holder sig because new phone and old sigs not saved :/ |
| Topic | Whether you are for or against abortion |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/14/17 4:46:44 PM #87 | Vindris, I heard of a case in Ireland where a woman miscarried but the fetus stayed all up inside her. She went to the doctor to have it removed. The doctor, being catholic, refused, because in his mind, abortion... even though fetus was dead and woman's life was in danger. Before she could find someone to do the procedure, she died of septic shock. What are your thoughts on this event? --- Place-holder sig because new phone and old sigs not saved :/ |
| Topic | Whether you are for or against abortion |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/14/17 4:43:22 PM #86 | Vindris_SNH posted... Zeeak4444 posted...Vindris_SNH posted...Zeeak4444 posted...Yes, we get the topics gone over your head. No need to inform us once again. "Instinct to protect human life has nothing to do with emotional appeal. If humans did not have emotions, they would still have the instinct to protect human life. There is something else inherent in this instinct that drives it, but it is devoid of all emotion." And yet, I, as a pro-abortion person who does not want to ever have kids, don't really exhibit emotion and never use emotion as a basis for my actions, decisions, choices, ideologies, values, morals etc. --- Place-holder sig because new phone and old sigs not saved :/ |
| Topic | Whether you are for or against abortion |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/14/17 4:28:56 PM #77 | LittleRoyal posted... I don't give myself up easily You don't understand what I meant by that, but you were not meant to. I would have been impressed if you did though. --- Place-holder sig because new phone and old sigs not saved :/ |
| Topic | Hillary Clinton thinks the moral of 1984 was to trust the media *HRC confirms* |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/14/17 4:26:56 PM #18 | Lordsai posted... ImTheMacheteGuy posted...I'm not familiar with that site, but based on what it is called, this is automatically fake news. Not a leftist. Independent. --- Place-holder sig because new phone and old sigs not saved :/ |
| Topic | Hillary Clinton thinks the moral of 1984 was to trust the media *HRC confirms* |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/14/17 4:21:03 PM #16 | Mal_Fet posted... sondast posted...DuranOfForcena posted...nothing about that paragraph says or implies anything even close to what the topic title claims it does I don't remember who obrian is --- Place-holder sig because new phone and old sigs not saved :/ |
| Topic | Whether you are for or against abortion |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/14/17 4:17:34 PM #67 | Vindris_SNH posted... hollow_shrine posted...Vindris_SNH posted...ChromaticAngel posted...This isn't really an issue about abortion, it's about fucking over the whole medical profession just to get at abortion providers. Your perception of how human life is defined is rooted in your religion. You can't see that, but it is what it is. "Every single person has literally the exact same instincts" is an asinine claim to make. --- Place-holder sig because new phone and old sigs not saved :/ |
| Topic | Whether you are for or against abortion |
| ImTheMacheteGuy 09/14/17 4:14:45 PM #62 | Vindris_SNH posted... ImTheMacheteGuy posted...Vindris_SNH posted...That_Happened posted...Bullshit. Your whole stance is two pronged: "Misguided people exist." Yeah, no fucking kidding. --- Place-holder sig because new phone and old sigs not saved :/ |
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