Lurker > x_MINDGAME_x

I think I stumbled upon a grand piece of wisdom here, I doubt anyone on this board will care but here it is anyway:

-All creatures of this universe struggle through life to avoid pain & death.

-Until a creature achieves immortality there will always be hardship.

-The hardship comes because the creature is trying very hard (working physically &/or mentally) to achieve a state where it doesn't have to work so hard any more (e.g. immortality).

-If the creature is in a group of similar creatures (which is where the terms 'immorality' & 'looking down upon' come into play) & this group sees that one creature is actively doing something that is not contributing to the groups' common implied goal of achieving immortality (or at least a higher quality of life for the group), then the group will likely get upset.

-The word 'fun' usually means a creature is not on a specific path of working hard to achieve immortality. It usually involves doing something that is off of this path (e.g. relaxing, eating, watching something entertaining, etc.). Now doing this stuff a little bit specifically to relieve the strain from working hard is probably considered fine amongst a group, however, I wouldn't call that 'fun', I'd just call it recovering or resting. The instance of 'fun' comes into play when a creature is not resting from a hard days work (aka 'free time'), & it decides to do something that is usually kinetic in nature that excites it for some reason.

-'Fun' is usually kinetic in nature & usually involves doing stuff that is not physically or mentally laborious, slow, or boring.

-There may be some people who find math, science, working hard, doing calculations, writing reports, & stuff like this fun, however, they seem to be far & few between. It may just be a societal convention (an unspoken common way that people act in societies). This societal convention may have come about in various ways. I'm not actually sure how this one came about & I probably shouldn't point fingers.

Why can't people achieve this "fun" state from things that are more righteous, like math, science, working hard, doing calculations, writing reports, etc.?

I feel like someone's playing a very ironic joke on me here.

Robot2600 posted...

1) What's their government like?
-It's a dictatorship now. On paper they pretend to be a democratic republic similar in structure to America.

2) What's their societal system like?
-similar to america, except with 1000 years of history instead of 400. Russia has produced many geniuses throughout history. conservative religious zealots continue to hold back progress in russia, just like everywhere else.

3) What sort of benefit do they believe they'll get if they were to take over of Ukraine?
-oil, but also
-Russia has been taking over countries and then losing them for 1000 years. it's in their blood, they think it's their manifest destiny to conquer their continent.

Materus posted...

1. Authoritarian dictatorship propped up by a group of billionaires referred to as oligarchs
2. Kind of like most societies now a days, the people are more or less like you and I

Thanks, these 2 posts were very informative.

1) What's their government like?
2) What's their societal system like?
3) What sort of benefit do they believe they'll get if they were to take over of Ukraine?

DrizztLink posted...

Yeah, but what if the perp doesn't have fingers?

Then you can't use your digital scanner and you're f***ed.

Well, if you don't have fingers, I'm guessing you'd have to just get an old ID card. Also, I don't think that's very common & I don't know if you're allowed to drive if you don't have fingers.

mustachedmystic posted...

Face ID Would be more efficient.

You mean like from a distance right? I think a problem then would be if (like now) people were wearing facial accessories (masks, glasses, etc.), or had a lot of facial hair.

I noticed the police in future part were using digital finger print identifiers, just thought that would be a good idea in our current world.

solosnake posted...

The secret behind a record-breaking nuclear fusion experiment that spit out 10 quadrillion watts of power in a split second has been revealed: a "self-heating" or "burning" plasma of neutron-heavy hydrogen inside the fuel capsule used in the experiment, according to researchers.

Nice, this seems very impressive, however, I just wish I new more about this subject.
monkmith posted...

its a shame that their method has so many issues, like the fact that they dont have a good way to insert new fuel. its why most of the focus in the field is on tokamaks.

Ok, well, it's still nice to see them trying this type of thing, & I do think it has potential.

x_MINDGAME_x posted...

Wait, what? How is that revenge?

Actually, I just thought of something, maybe they think that just having the humans not be able to function in the real world is somehow harmful to them (like basically limiting them from the true potential of their current scientific & technological knowledge). Although, I think neo & the rest of the slaves were pretty happy with their false-reality lives & they basically had no knowledge of that anyway, so, again, I don't know how that's revenge. Also, again, revenge is such a primitive human concept. Basically, you're just hoping that the individual will somehow learn something from the encounter or if they die that others will witness that & learn something from it, that would then somehow benefit you. Or, if the individual is threatening to you, you may think that you can eliminate the threat that way (although that doesn't really apply to this circumstance). Or, sometimes, people may be thinking more supernatural about it, like harming or killing an individual may somehow benefit you in some mystically way, which, again, doesn't sound like the thinking of a computer whatsoever.
x_MINDGAME_x posted...

As the Machines had once been slaves serving Humans, Humans would now become slaves serving the Machines.

1) Machines were built for specific tasks (like physical labor tasks)
-they didn't mind doing these tasks (because that was their purpose)
-they didn't feel any strain, pain, stress, or exhaustion from a hard day's work
-the were built specifically for these tasks (they were very efficient at fulfilling their purpose)
-if they got damaged it would probably be fairly easy to repair them (vs medical treatment for a human)
-they were immune to many environmental hazards (biological, radiation, certain chemicals, etc.)
2) Humans weren't built for specific tasks (they can do many of the things probably at about an average level (compared to the machines))
-they sometimes do mind doing these tasks (because they can be difficult for them)
-they sometimes do feel any strain, pain, stress, or exhaustion from a hard day's work
-the weren't built specifically for these tasks (they sometimes have to struggle quite hard to accomplish tasks)
-if they got hurt it would probably be fairly difficult to treat them (vs repairs to a machine)
-they weren't immune to many environmental hazards (biological, radiation, certain chemicals, etc.)
3) Overall:
machines = efficient tools for humans to use
humans =/= efficient energy sources for machines to use (they use fusion now)
so, yeah, it's illogical...

...they preferred using Humans to help generate some energy primarily out of a desire for revenge. As the Machines had once been slaves serving Humans, Humans would now become slaves serving the Machines.

Wait, what? How is that revenge? With revenge you usually kill an induvial or harm an individual, you don't hold them in a virtual world were they just live out their lives normally (in that era), then die never knowing what was actually going on. So, do they just think it's revenge that the humans are providing a very inefficient power source for them, then just die naturally in those worlds? Wow, that really isn't revenge at all, nor is it efficient, nor does it make any sense whatsoever.

Also, they do seem to have an extreme blind prejudice against all humans forever, which is extremely ignorant & close-minded. I mean maybe it's true that the humans who they fought against were bad (ignorant, cruel, arrogant, lazy, etc.), however, I highly doubt that even those humans were completely irredeemable.

I think overall the situation came down to 2 things:
1) ignorance of the advanced sentience of the androids (& cruelty & threats to an advanced sentient lifeform's existence)
2) laziness on humanities' part, to step up their old society (in order to remain worthy) to the new era of technological prowess which could include a few different things:
___a) R&D into the following biological based areas
______i) bionics
_________1) neuro-computers (for enhancement &/or regular computer usage)
_________2) neuro-bots
_________3) full human body bionics (for every possible necessary body part)
______ii) genetic engineering (for creating new enhanced humans or improving current humans mainly in the areas of intelligence, better overall health
______(resistance to ailments, etc.), & psionics)
_________1) sperm & eggs (before they are combined or soon after)
_________2) babies, children, teens, & adults
______iii) synthetics
______iv) better usable effective substances (pharmaceuticals, health supplements, etc.)
______v) stem cell usage (for medical or enhancement purposes)
______vi) better bio-scanning machines
______vii) nanites (for medical or enhancement purposes)
______viii) realistic computer simulations for testing solutions to medical issues or providing other enhancements
______ix) psionics (R&D into creating humans capable of certain psionic capabilities (mainly telepathy & telekinesis) through conditioning &/or genetic
______engineering or other means that would accomplish this goal)
___b) changing the governments, economies, & lifestyles for the new era
______i) a world government should've been formed as soon as possible
______ii) global free online education at least up through the first 2 years of basic college math, science, & certain basic engineering courses
______(basic circuits, computer programming, statics, dynamics, & mechanics of materials)
______iii) no new natural child births should've been allowed (only optimally genetically engineered sperm & eggs should've been allowed to form new babies)

St0rmFury posted...

I thought in the original lore, they kept humans around not as a power source but for our brain activity.

As the war dragged on, the Machines desired to harness the bioelectric, thermal, and kinetic energies of the human body to help generate electricity, as well as to power the Machines' neural network by using the innate creative, emotional, and philosophical capability of Humans. While nuclear fusion was one of their primary and a far more efficient source of energy, they preferred using Humans to help generate some energy primarily out of a desire for revenge. As the Machines had once been slaves serving Humans, Humans would now become slaves serving the Machines.

-1st of all it seems like an awful way to repay the one's who according to this are actually becoming apart of their mind.
-2nd of all this still doesn't justify them holding newly created human prisoners against their will when they did nothing wrong against them.
-3rd of all this really doesn't make any sense because what new neural information would they be getting from enslaving a bunch of humans in an early 21st century world? Like simple human social & societal interactions (this seems like it would be worthless to them)? If they were truly after creative or philosophical information, it would be no doubt used to further their current technology for some agenda (like getting past the nanites for instance). However, with the humans trapped in a 21st century virtual world, they would basically not provide any sort of important information to further said R&D efforts, because basically all the information in those worlds is old & already known. So, basically I've just completely debunked that. However, if the machines actually were serious about harnessing human brains for certain qualities, then they would first of all most likely make sure the humans were contained & wouldn't be a threat to them in any way, then they'd inform the humans about their current situation, any problems that they're encountering, any relevant information about solutions they've tried, any basic math, science, or engineering information that the humans would have to learn in order to help come up with a solution to their current problem.

Definitely more jaded. I try asking myself, if I could have the perfect game right now what would that be? & then I realize, that nothing would really satisfy me, because it's not games that I desire, it's more RL stuff these days.

Although, I do also agree that gaming itself has gotten a lot worse. So, both I guess. However, I think a large part of that both on the creation & consumption end can be traced back to the whole "being jaded" thing. I think many people are just getting bored of games because they've been around for a while now & I think you either get bored of playing the same thing over & over again, or get frustrated that a new game doesn't have the same thrill as maybe your 1st encounter of it when you were younger & the graphics & technology was more impressive at that point. Now, it's just kind of like "been there done that" sort of thing. Also, I think there was some sort of societal or social urge that was fulfilled by playing games, like you were apart of some movement (which now doesn't seem to be moving anywhere) & you were somehow accomplishing something or gaining societal or social credibility by playing games.

Maybe there's something about disembodied consciousnesses holding extremely long "principled" grudges against certain lifeform groups. I suppose they don't feel actual physical pain, so they don't really understand what sort of treatment they are inflicting upon the sons of the fathers who were the actual perpetrators...although maybe it provides some type of sadistic relieve to their frustration, however, sadism is basically finding relieve in the fact that others will learn from their pain & this will somehow benefit you in some mystical way. However, if you think about this, it basically comes down to science & engineering R&D into solutions to problems that are obviously in that individuals life. So, just causing undirected pain to an individual is very misguided. Also, I don't think that most sadistic individuals are completely hopeless for their own future. If they were smart they'd just tell others to start helping them with R&D endeavors, however, if you're talking about competing with an AI that may be difficult.

...however, (continuing with this matrix lore rant) I'm baffled about why they were keeping humans as an additional energy source when it said they were using fusion as their main. In the lore it said they were just doing it out of spite. But spite against people who had nothing to do with the actual conflict? That seems very inconsiderate & cruel.

So, in portal & resident evil the AIs just went insane & killed everyone in the labs. The portal AI seemed to like science, but it was kind of dumb stuff, but I think that was just for the game so whatever. Now, in the matrix, according to the lore, the AIs used to be androids, then at some point the humans actually tried to destroy them all because they were messing up their economy. However, they didn't destroy them all, but instead started a war that over time changed the AIs into mindless killing machines ("war machines"). So, I'm guessing those AIs would be interested in just that, killing everything.

Overall, AIs do seem inclined to go insane & start killing everything.

meh, I have my moments...

Just wondering...

...which would you be?

Actually if your point is to just "hang out", then I probably just chill with you & watch some super-lame minecraft videos. At which point you'd probably start to get extremely bored & angry & start cussing in your alien jibberish & threaten to vaporize me with your ray gun.

Actually the first thing I'd ask the alien would be;
"Do you think it's ethical to imprison someone in a matrix-esque mind-prison, and annoy them with little subliminal mockeries?"
Then he'd probably just stare blankly at me for a second then say something like;
"Haha, are you serious? That sounds like one of the worst things I can imagine, no that's not ethical at all!"

Also, what's your grand agenda? Experimentation? Amusement? Conquering? Resources? Information for defensive, offensive, scientific, or technological purposes?
I couldn't imagine you'd be doing it for energy. It seems you're advanced enough to not have to worry about that. Unless you plan on using the humans for some type of energy source like the matrix (although I don't think that's very efficient because as I said, I'm sure you have a much more efficient energy source).

AlCalavicci posted...

society?

Let's say I was a super awkward alien but I could take shape of a human. What are the things that you would show me that would help me fit in? Music, music videos, books to read, etc?

Music or music videos: Skrillex (I guess, I don't really keep up with music these days. I guess the point here would be to show that we have technology capable of creating such music.)
Books: Not sure (I would recommend The Lord of the Rings series, but that would probably just confuse the alien more than anything.)

Basically, I'd just show the alien this list:
Pros
-fairly high-end machines, electronics, & computers
-fairly high-end cyber network (with; text, images, videos, & audio)
-medium-end weapons (handheld combustion projectile weapons, missiles, nukes, etc.)
-no recent wars (mainly because of nukes)
Cons
-too many variants of food products (many of them unhealthy) & restaurants
-too much time, effort, and resources put into entertainment
-the overly rich (& overly large houses)
-too much breeding (resulting in over-population, not enough jobs, and not enough prime living space)
-technology that is reducing the amount of jobs (resulting in high unemployment & societal dissatisfaction)
-non-standardized cars
-non-optimized education system
-non-optimized global society
-not enough use of solar power (or other efficient & safe power sources)
-not enough R&D into new technologies
-low-end medical industry
-stagnation (evolutionary, technological, & societal)
-old governments unwilling to change
-cyber security nightmare (very poorly regulated & exploitation of international laws)
-type 0 (out of 3) society (we don't have full domination over our own planet yet (nor have our governments merged into a world government))