Lurker > Kamekguy

Live a Live
Marvel Snap
Neon White
AI The Somnium Files: The Nirvana Intiative
SIGNALIS

Kirby and the Forgotten Land
SIGNALIS
Immortality
Pokemon Scarlet/Violet

Mario + Rabbids: Sparks of Hope
Chained Echoes
The Quarry
Digimon Survive

Waymond

Vampire Survivors
Kirby's Dream Buffet
Frog Detective 3
Stray
Citizen Sleeper

God of War: Ragnarok
-
Citizen Sleeper
Pentiment

Yes

Even just beyond the character story (which I enjoyed but is more than a bit messy), his body language and acting is perfection.

Mercs 5 Changelog, Part 3:

Banjo & Kazooie - Adding some clarifying text to Split Up to ensure that its clear that Collectathon can be used once between the two of them as a PS ability and that their terrain can be bid on. Otherwise, honestly they went better than Id hoped - functioned as a nice deterrent for abilities, neat combo pieces, and people actually talked about them. Gruntildas Lair is my big favorite, and in spite of being a big terrain, was fair enough to keep fights understandable.

King of All Cosmos - Perfect. I will never make a better ability than Beeeear!

King K. Rool - I wanted him to be a low tier bully. Absolutely succeeded, which is nice as I thought the other option was "he gets laughed out of the building"! Cost 2 AP to be a match decider with no inherent ability protection, but otherwise is a low-value target. Still has wiggle room in spite of being able to get a ton of power, good guy, I like him. Please buy him I think he's very funny.

Sagat - Effective, a bit there but creates low-value pressure. Didnt get to highlight the potential for ring outs or his close quarters abilities outside of is good, but I think its neat! Needs a bit of further testing to see how effective King of Low Tier/applying fatigue on his tiger shots are.

Kirby - Honestly exceeded my expectations in terms of combat respect. Kirby was one of the mercs I was most afraid of seeing released, because the gulf of strength hes received since the last mercs is MASSIVE in terms of actual feats that arent just theoretical or he punched the planet in half. Kirby respect leaned a lot harder than expected. As such, if Kirby brings a 6/week form or higher, he will be considered a 5/week for rostering purposes. This wont apply if he eats a 6/week, just if he brings one in. Also will tweak his bio to less emphasize durability, and more explain his copy ability has very few showings of increasing durability and base stats when hes not attacking. Friend Heart and Robobot Armor require further testing, but I still think Friend Heart is a slightly more elegant Helper that fits Kirbys flavor a bit more.

Solid Snake - The idea of Snake is to make your opponent scared of what you CAN do, even while youre doing absolutely nothing. This 100% happened. As such, will be tweaking Snake to clarify that ALL of his abilities are privately declared after Tactical Espionage other than Wartime Has Changed. Also will note on ability upgrade, you can spend 1 AP to cancel Kept You Waiting, Huh?s self-negate. Otherwise, the build worked as intended - create pressure from the potential of what Snake CAN do, rather than solely the presence of Solid Snake.

Aigis - Mostly just clarifying language that she takes all damage from abilities, including KOs, but non their non-damaging effects. It basically worked out that same way in-topic, just updating language to clarify it. Was put in a bad position in-topic, but I feel this build works.

Tusk - Removing Death Comes to Us All at base and in its current form. It was intended to be a neat bit of flavor, but honestly, its more of a strong nerf that Tusk isnt strong enough to need. Instead, moving it to be an upgrade option, wherein if hes hit with a removal ability, hell just be unconscious and will show up after the rest of his teams fallen, ignoring all SoB and Pre-Battle effects. This will replace his current ability upgrade, which will mix in the 2/week ability immunity. With that said, he got a healthy amount of respect for a literally who?, which is what Id like from someone who was intended to fit the Ike archetype of man who hits with sword and others die. Finally, were reducing the XP cost of Watchman of the Gods, and reducing the character limit on Ask Uncle Tusk to 400 - 640 was excessive for ME, and Im obnoxiously verbose!

Thank you for joining us for this week of demo matches! We hope that the overall changes made to the mercs formula has been intriguing and enjoyable, and the matches themselves were entertaining enough! We'll be releasing information shortly on what we plan to do in the future, and value any and all feedback!

Match Results:

Kan > Kamek (13-0)
Kamek > Trdl (8-0)
Trdl > Kan (6-5) (Close!)

Kirby's Hit! He Loses His Zenos ability.
Gael gains 5 Blood Counters
Max gains 1 Storm Counter

XP:

Kan - 15 XP
Kamek - 15 XP
Trdl - 15 XP

Also request that as soon as Raiden pops out of the cake, an electric rock version of "Happy Birthday" starts playimg.

Oh yeah if cake isn't here this isn't even debatable. Uninhibited Raiden at least kills everyone who isn't Zenos and the two rewinds ensure that Garrus basically gets to pick him off for free. Like Raiden will just eat the one Tetrakarn per body, probably lose an arm, and not miss a beat slaughtering them.

What's keeping me here is Yu, who has a canonical 1v1 (after an assist from the P4 villain) win against this with just Izanagi.

https://megamitensei.fandom.com/wiki/Hinokagutsuchi_(demon)

This is a malevolent demon made to manipulate people by creating false bodies that pop up out of nowhere and outright possession, with world-ending power by the point Yu fights it (it's absorbed a bunch of persona energy due to some red fog... stuff, look I really don't care for Ultimax's story at all outside of a few isolated character beats), and Narukami just... beats it up with his sword until it dies. No usual P4 power of friendship 11th hour power-up, just Yu being given an opening by the guy he hates the most to fight a big demon thing and winning. For reference, there is a parallel P3 story where Labrys takes his place, and Labrys actually has great combat feats of tearing down military installations and beating combat androids of her model and relative abilities while being vastly outnumbered, she's GREAT and I take her to win against Zeratul in almost every situation where he doesn't gank her, and even then I think he takes a lot of damage. Yu doesn't command that respect from me, but the fact that he can keep up and has good showings against Aigis in almost every telling of P4A's story makes me think that he really needs to be targeted if Zeratul's in his melee range.

That bit is keeping me hanging on; Zeratul and Garrus NEED to clear Yu/Tifa/Kiryu in three attempts, and Garrus doesn't know to change up his strategy for each attempt until he's in the middle of it. And this is presumably with Zeratul also avoiding Zenos (Selvaria I think Garrus just snipes as a matter of course at some point, probably without Tetrakarn as I see her going off to kill either the fleeing dragon or wherever she thinks the dragon was gonna go, and sadly I think Gael is just outclassed here in a way Kiryu isn't due to his persona support magic). I think this is POSSIBLE, but I think that Zeratul will not have the ability to measure one of Yu or Tifa's combat parameters properly in just three shots, will take a hit he didn't expect, and then Zenos ensures it's over. And from there, I don't see Garrus outpacing the healing before Zenos finds his vantage point and gets to him - I think he can kill Kiryu and one of Tifa or Yu, but not both in time.

I think that's the tipper - Zenos v Raiden, yeah, give it to Raiden, easy. But Zenos with Yu's buffs v Raiden, where Zenos can actually riposte the sword? Yeah that's gross.

Time is short and I can still be swung, but I'll toss a tentative to Team Narukami. Really tricky putting everything through its paces though, had to rewatch a bunch of Ultimax to figure out "how much DO I respect Yu beyond just spells?"

Just some brief thoughts:

-I actually buy that Team Garrus is the one who will be defending mostly. Selvaria is... not in the best shape for complex thinking beyond MURDER, and Zenos is not in the best shape for not wanting to wait patiently for a worthy foe to slowly chip themselves out against all these reflect barriers. Garrus is smart enough to figure out a good place to trap, I'm more than confident on that.

-Tetrakarn hurts stealth HARD. ME bullets are explicitly supermagnet-fueled metal, warp blade would definitely qualify as physical if Akechi's laser swords in P5R are also physical. If Zeratul didn't have rewind, this would be really awful.

-Zeratul has Rewind! I do think he has to blow through them in real quick succession, he's got no way of knowing that EVERYONE has this barrier and Garrus probably triggers a shot on himself, which'll suck (though not terribly if he lives it, those shields will get back up right quick).

-Vrtra I dunno if he lives or not. I totally buy that Kiryu, the newest model of hot bar owner he's hanging out with, and the newest kid he's adopted make very, VERY short work of this turbodead Estinien, but I dunno, I've learned from experience Zenos is very fast at charging an opponent and Selvaria is sure to do some good damage. Even being generous and assuming Vrtra gets out, I think he's taking a lot of damage to the dome.

-I think it would be hilarious if Haurchefant gave a dramatic speech to buy his team more time. If there is a "hold up, let him cook" character, it is 100% Haurchefant.

So I suppose the tipping points for me are if Garrus can survive one of his own sniper rounds coming back at him, how well he and Zeratul are communicating and if there's any plan there, and basically how much support does Zenos have by the time to gets to Raiden. Because I don't think Raiden chops him down quickly, Zenos has way too much AoE crap to get in the way of a clean advance for Raiden, but that's manageable unless he's also being flanked by some Persona magic.

Our final showmatch for you. I am sorry that it is not also on Gruntilda's Lair. Enjoy!:

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/80319720

Kanz's argument

TL;DR: Vrtra and Estinien are dead. Sneak attacks don't work. Buffs and war of attrition favor us.

---

Our final match of this showcase is going to be an explosive one. Unfortunately, this explosion will consume the enemy team in a blaze of nuclear hellfire.

To start things off, I want to very quickly dismantle the value of Garrus' ambush time. To do this, I want to propose a fun little game to you. Check this video out:

https://youtu.be/uRDQJcAzq7Y?t=39

No, I don't want anyone to watch this in full. Instead, simply count the seconds where the characters are moving forward, deeper and deeper into the depths of Ala Mhigo, and skip over any and all instances of battle until you hit a full minute of walking. Then look at how much more video there is left. This is a massive, sprawling terrain, and Garrus won't get into position to ambush my team in time.

Estinien is dead. There's no way he can survive an uppercut, Rise and Fall, Starshower, Dolphin Flurry AND Final Heaven from Tifa, and then take a quadruple damage ANYTHING from anyone. It's just too much. He's gone. Which leaves Vrtra all alone with the rest of my team. The Hall of the Griffin is very large, and Vrtra should be able to move, so it's likely he'll try to escape. Unfortunately, the Hall is very sturdily built (you can see it in the final segments of the video above where Zenos appears), and even more unfortunately, there's a much bigger, badder dragon in the way.

https://imgur.com/Ls1Ok4x

This is the size of Vrtra, relative to my character, a 5' 10'' human (I'm the guy with the flaming halo, hi everyone).

https://imgur.com/tveBjVi

This is the size of Shinryu's top third or top quarter, seen from a distance, with my character as a reference.

https://imgur.com/YyTMZ9J

...And this is Shinryu's size from up close and personal. Note the halo as my character clings on for dear life to him. It's not even possible to capture a full shot of the size of Shinryu's bladed tail using an unmodded instance of FF14. The best I can do is show you how it covers the arena with plenty of room to spare.

https://imgur.com/pISgQ50

Vrtra will try to fly away, and he will be put in a tail hold or simply slammed against the ground by Zenos. The rest of the team will butcher him afterward. He's simply too small and too weak to escape this fate. Once taken care of, that just leaves Zeratul and Garrus to deal with as active threats, as Raiden is in a cake and can be dispatched at leisure. Enter Yu and Kiryu. Yu's Izanagi persona has the Rakunda skill, which inflicts defense down on a chosen enemy and will nuke Garrus' defenses, leaving him vulnerable to Yu and friends' attacks. Kiryu, for his part, has the persona Vishnu, which not only allows him to combine its attacks with his for a devastating tandem physical offensive...but also has Tetrakarn, a buff that reflects *any physical attack* an ally is hit with to the attacker, and doesn't fade away until consumed. This turns Zeratul's sneak attacks into liabilities because he'll try to kill someone and end up hitting himself with his warp blade. He's not very resilient to them -- one good stab from Artanis' own blade killed him in Starcraft 2. Even if he survives his own botched assassination attempt, he'll be heavily wounded, and his team has no way to patch up wounded allies. His and Garrus' preferred fighting styles heavily lean on physical attacks (especially Garrus, whose only non-physical attack is Overload, a lightning strike...and Yu's Kohryu persona passively reflects lightning). Taking those away from them turns them into sitting ducks. Raiden is tough enough to take his own hits reflected back at him and continue attacking, but unfortunately, he'll be debuffed and facing an overwhelming numbers disadvantage before long -- and what's worse is, his enemies will keep getting back up if defeated, and Yu's Heat Riser buff will turn Zenos, his most dangerous foe, into an even greater menace by buffing everything he can do. It'll likely be a drawn out battle, but the outcome should never be in question. These upstart invaders will not snatch Ala Mhigo away from its true owners. Their invasion will be repelled, and their defeat will serve to remind them of the most important constant they should have remembered before challenging us: their own inferiority.

trdl's argument:

There have been an awful lot of walls of texts here, and some people have said they don't bother reading them. So let's keep this quick. Three main questions are important to answer: A) Can Vrtra get out of the Hall of the Griffin? B) Can Raiden beat Shinryu-Zenos? C) What effect does Garrus have here? Let me answer these for you:

A) Yes, Vrtra gets out of the Hall. Selvaria is Hollowed and thus lacks much of the technique that makes her arsenal so scary -- and I'm willing to bet she focuses on finishing off Estinien if my playing of Dark Souls has given me any indication. Take the kill she knows she can get. Vrtra will be super sad to leave Estinien for dead, but he's a wise ruler of a subcontinent, and he knows when the greater good needs him most. He's also a huge fuckoff dragon and can force a way through. Finally, he knows Zenos and knows what makes Zenos tick since they met on Sharlayan - he can promise Zenos a fight with a being that may even surpass Zenos's "friend," and Zenos will slobber at this and let him go. He has a habit to let people go when he knows there's a greater fight to be had later. Vrtra flies back to his team start point and gobbles up the cake to get Raiden free. Nobody else packs enough firepower to hit Vrtra hard enough to be relevant in a small skirmish.

B) Absolutely. I'll hold off on showing Raiden's feats, you already know what they are. Shinryu could easily just try to cast magic from a distance... but this is Zenos we're talking about. He will ALWAYS go for mano-a-mano for the thrill of it - in FF14, he even gladly extends his tail as Shinryu to bid his rival run up it toward him for a melee brawl.

C) Garrus makes everyone else irrelevant. There's a plaza choke point right here he will absolutely reach first and trap to hell and back: https://youtu.be/AcjclS3M0pQ?t=285

This is a grand sniper who held a bridge against three massive merc companies, solo. Hollow Selvaria can't parry him with her technique. Only Zenos matters.

Raiden, Garrus Vakarian, Zeratul, Estinien Wyrmblood, Vrtra, Slave Knight Gael, and Haurchefant Graystone have challenged Zenos viator Galvus, Selvaria Bles, Yu Narukami, Tifa Lockhart, and Kazama Kiryu to a fight! Location of the fight: Ala Mhigo - Capital city of the namesake country, now a war-torn battle site in the final days of Garlean occupation, as seen in the duty of the same name and the Royal Menagerie trial. Attackers will begin at the staging point, while defenders will begin at the Hall of the Griffin. All enemies are absent and all obstacles impeding passage have been cleared, but the unmanned pieces of military hardware still remain, free for mercenaries to use as they see fit.. Which side will win?

Guidelines
- The fight will occur in real-time (like an FMV sequence). Gameplay mechanics are less important than how the characters would function in a real-time environment.
- The members of each team are ideal teammates capable of executing a prearranged battle plan.
- Unless stated otherwise, characters have access to their full arsenal of abilities and equipment. They may not always work at full power, however (e.g. a petrifying spell may have only a partial hindering effect not seen in gameplay or even fail outright against sufficiently powerful mercenaries). Use your own discretion.
- There may be SPOILERS from all of the games the characters are from.
Rules for Voting
- Bold your votes (using bold HTML tags).
- You do not need to require justification for your vote, though the admins reserve the right to disqualify votes in the advent of obvious alt voting and other similar scenarios.
- Leaders cannot vote for their own teams, but they are free to argue their case.
- If you want to switch your votes simply bold the change; there's no need to delete your post, though you may if you wish.
- This match will end in 24 hours.

Raiden is as seen in Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance with access to all of his weapons (save the Fox Blade) and upgrades available in that game, including the Murasama blade, as well as a full complement of grenades and stinger missiles. Raiden will start battle entrapped within a cake larger than him, completely indestructible to all attacks save eating through it. Raiden is are free to exit the cake as soon as they and their team have eaten them a way out, and will automatically emerge from it when Kiryu or the majority of his team encounter the cake, attempting to surprise them.

Garrus Vakarian is as he appears in Mass Effect 3, with his Black Widow sniper rifle and M-7 Lancer Assault Rifle and all powers seen therein. He has entered the battle one minute early to do whatever he'd please.

Zeratul is as he appears in the Starcraft series and Heroes of the Storm with all of his skills except Void Prison. He is permanently invisible, only detectable by the shimmer of light refracting off his cloak. Zeratul has the ability to "rewind" up to 15 seconds as seen in Life is Strange, up to two times.

Estinien Wyrmblood is as he is seen in Final Fantasy XIV: Endwalker, with all of his gameplay, cutscene, and trailer feats from every expansion of the game. He also has the full PvP Dragoon kit, sans elixirs. Estinien has been hit by Tifa's Whirlwind Uppercut, Rise and Fall, Starshower, Dolphin Flurry (FF7:R versions), and Final Heaven (FF7 version) Limit Breaks! After sustaining all damage from these attacks, he will start the battle dazed for 3 seconds, taking quadruple damage from the next attack that he receives, and knocked into the air next to Tifa.

Vrtra is as he is seen in Final Fantasy XIV: Endwalker, with all gameplay, cutscene, and trailer feats from it. Varshahn is absent, so he possesses both of his eyes. Vrtra starts next to Estinien.

Slave Knight Gael is as he is seen in phase 3 of his boss fight in Dark Souls 3: The Ringed City, although he starts at full health and retains his sanity from before his bossfight as well as his moveset from previous phases. The lightning storm around him only extends to his immediate vicinity and does not hurt his teammates.

Lord Haurchefant Greystone is as he is seen in Final Fantasy XIV, including all feats in-game and in cutscenes.

~VS~

Zenos viator Galvus is as he appears in Final Fantasy XIV: Endwalker. He has access to all of his attacks seen in his final battle, as well as any from previous appearances and cutscene showings, save for Storm, Swell, Sword. He may transform into Shinryu at will, possessing all of the attacks seen in The Minstrel's Ballad: Shinryu's Domain, save for Reiryu, though none of his attacks will have enrage properties. He may not summon any allies, save his avatar.

Selvaria is as seen in Valkyria Chronicles, with access to her Valkyrur lance and shield as well as her Ruhm machine gun. She cannot use her Valkyrur Flame self destruct power.Selvaria will prioritize the safety of Zenos over all else, even if they're on different teams. She is equipped with the Persona, Sraosha, as it appears in Persona 4 (with Null Fire, Ice, and Wind. Mamamaon may not necessarily instantly kill targets on successful application).Slave Knight Gael has reduced Selvaria to a hollow! She will be considered undead, and will be berserked and ravenous for the duration of the battle.

Yu Narukami is as he appears in Persona 4: Golden and Persona 4 Arena: Ultimax. He has the persona Izanagi available, may not summon Izanagi-no-Okami, and may freely switch to his persona Kohryu (with Heat Riser).

Tifa Lockhart is as she appears in Final Fantasy 7 Remake and continuations, with full access to all of her moves and Limit Breaks seen therein. She has access to the Chakra, Prayer, Assess, Deadly Dodge, Parry, Steadfast Block, Breach, Provoke, Poison, Elemental and Carbuncle materias, fully mastered.

Kazuma Kiryu is as he appears in the Yakuza series, at the peak of his fighting prowess. He comes into battle equipped with three bottles of Staminan Royale, the Ama-no-Murakumo blade, Extremely Sturdy Brass Knuckles, a 9mm handgun with unlimited ammo, the Transcendent Body Armor and a motorcycle. He may use any of his fighting styles, Heat Actions and techniques as he sees fit, and starts the battle with full Heat, which will not drain unless used. He is equipped with the Persona, Vishnu, as it appears in Persona 4 (plus Tetrakarn and Blade of Fury).

Eh, tough call. I do think a 3v3 woulda been more accessible, but we also wanted to do a midgame showcase to be more indicative of game flow. Double edged sword, y'know?

I got people to care about King K Rool in a dumb fantasy fight though, so I'm happy.

My apologies. I tried a shorter version and then organizing things by section. It's hard when you have a full team at once to hype, instead of mercs where you're usually like "okay you know what these guys can do by Week 20 so here's what my new guy, who is also from FFXIV, can do".

I don't expect to talk about Mass Effect, K. Rool's durability, the entire late-game lore of Kirby and the Forgotten Land, and what Gruntilda's Lair looks like all in one ever again. And THEN a strategy.

Lopen posted...

So can Banjo barrel into an enemy and remove them from the match if he manages to touch them?

This is true, but only once, he deletes himself in the process afterwards.

I'm not asking Banjo to LIVE, god no!

I'm simply asking him to use the tremendous momentum from his Beak Bomb to lawn dart his ass at the big dragon. Normally, Banjo gets belmont'd back by attacks, but the Beak Bomb actually continues his momentum - he just loses control and hilariously and painfully crashes as he skids along the floor. The ideal is not for Banjo to go through a big attack and survive - it's that he takes it, is horribly mauled, and his charred, screaming body carries through anyway.

Or y'know. He just wonderwings to them when they're in a tunnel they can barely get through. Like Hell if my guys are coming outside to fight the dragon.

So to better sell this, I'd like to think that Gael is probably pissed off from Sagat shooting him in the face. I doubt he will be calm, and thus, I think his journey through the lair will be one where he's taking point. If that is the case, I absolutely think he's running into mines Kazooie's set up.

The main thing is that Sagat is always gonna be in front of Banjo until it's the bear's time to shine. As much as I'd love to argue that Vivi contributes something here... nah fam. K. Rool doesn't need to be a great shot, Vivi is a clumsy child who trips and falls over at the best of times. The moment that guy stops to cast a spell, he's getting filled with lead. I'd like to also emphasize that the Black Widow is not a single-shot sniper - it can shoot out three rounds in succession before needing more fuel. It's a VERY generous piece of tech that honestly gives Garrus a scary amount of wiggle room. With K Rool, I think (considering he is copying Kirby's ability to be Garrus, Kirbo naturally becomes skilled enough to use weapon, etc.) he can manage to shoot a child who's already paranoid about mines littered all over and Gael's probably tripped at least one for them to realize OH SHIT, MINES.

Sagat is just a solid wall and K Rool and Banjo hold a range advantage, Kazooie specifically having the Amaze-O-Gaze goggles to zoom in and act as a sniper's lens. This is coupled with all of her eggs having homing properties, and some of them (specifically grenade and ice) actually being rather useful! Clockwork Kazooie Eggs ensure that they'll know exactly when Team Gael is coming, and keep in mind, this is a group that is now paranoid because there have been mines all over, one of the rooms was just full of piranhas for no reason, there is an instant death bear just wandering around that this asshole bird has sent toward them - they're gonna be in rough shape. And all K Rool has to do is wait for a pair of beady yellow eyes to come out of one entrance, and it's over. Harche can't GET DOWN MR PRESIDENT faster than the future gun with superbullets, Gael is now at a huge disadvantage vs Sagat as Kazooie can camp at K Rool's safe distance and shoot eggs that'll freeze him in place for a second (they've frozen larger, such as this octopus: https://banjokazooie.fandom.com/wiki/Inky who Banjo is a bit smaller than the size of its head) and then Sagat shatters him.

And as for Kirbo, I think he deals more damage to Est than he manages to heal up, at the very least. Like, Kirby's reaching his timer and dying of old age, absolutely. At which point it's gonna take Estinien a loooong time to get through, possibly with more traps already set, Vrtra having to take things verrry carefully to avoid the RANDOM BEAR. Like, there is no way this fight isn't staggered into three separate encounters (Kirby Vs Est, Gael Vivi and Harche Vs Sagat Kazooie K Rool, Est and Vrtra Vs K Rool and Banjo/Sagat), and there's zero reason for Banjo to be put in harm's way. Even if a wonderwing is necessary once, it's easy to turn on and off on command, burning through 4 seconds to avoid one of Vivi's spells isn't going to cost him, he's gonna land his corpse on Vrtra in 36 seconds as well as he would 40. He's hit Grunty mid-flight on her broomstick before with the Beak Bomb, and while Grunty was just cruisin', she was also in the open air and is a MUCH smaller target than big dragon!

I'm gonna be dead honest, I got a lot further than I thought I was gonna.

I have. It was rather awful. I am absolutely not calling it easy.

But I am comparing it to throwing a boxing glove off of your hand at a monkey with a jetpack and ensuring it boomerangs back to your wrist with this weird sidearm curve. Which I imagine is also rather awful.

... okay so it's actually much worse than I remember. Albeit he IS throwing a boxing glove trying to read a monkey with a jetpack's movements which, y'know. I would imagine aiming a gun is easier, but... yeah it's using N64-era tracking your movements. You can imagine it's goofy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjKLiXdOkpY#t=3m55s&ab_channel=VGamingJunkie

The only other example I can think of is Barrel Blast, where the pineapple launcher essentially works like a Red Shell. It's... more than most people get? Like, all the kongs are actually trained in their stupid fruit guns WITH sniper rifles, as is Krusha the Kremling.

... I should emphasize here that his mines cause slow and have a detonation range far larger than the entryways in Grunty's lair are wide. And I certainly don't think he's bad enough to miss a free shot. I do not doubt K Rool is a worse shot than Garrus - of course he is - but everything (mines, invisibility, slowing, small passages, Sagat) is set to ensure that he gets a solid line of sight and a FAR easier time.

I do think he can handle recoil from a gun very well. His blunderbuss is an actual cannon, and he can shoot it rapidly, sometimes three cannonballs in less than a second. Stability is not gonna be a problem for him. Nor is being unfamiliar with tech; K. Rool invented a robot that used DK and Diddy's brain waves to fuel it out of nothing but his wife's pots and pans.

Marksmanship... little more questionable. With that said, he does have very good aim when hitting Diddy with a jetpack out of the sky in Donkey Kong 64, with his projectile of choice being... a boxing glove he's throwing like a boomerang.

Terrain mitigates these weaknesses a LOT, though. Very predictable openings for K Rool to snipe, lots of tight corridors, assault rifle mitigates a lot of the risk because that's a lotta bullets and he just has to keep the gun steady, CAN DO THERE. And of course, the 100% free shot he gets on respawn.

KanzarisKelshen posted...

-How good are Kirby's copying abilities these days? If K. Rool gets Garrus' guns as Kamek says he does he's an absolute menace that might unironically carry. If he gets 'garrus-y guns' instead of the genuine article that's a lot harder for me to buy into, though. Need some feats here.

I actually detail this in our topic!

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/80317205/970952341

The short version is "he copied the soul of a guy that ANOTHER guy absorbed to use as an attack. And also all of the other attacks sans setting an entire room on fire. AND lifesteal and teleporting".

Copy ability got GOOD.

Kazooie can make Banjo invincible for like 40 seconds (20 Wonderwing feathers, each one lasts about 2 seconds).

This is video game cheat code-ass invincibility that he is required to use at points. Like, big spooky dragon go BWAR and try to hit him, oh no he go right through.

I am also arguing the beak bomb, which...

https://youtu.be/DY6tY5Opy2c

Is silly.

Please understand, I am not asking Banjo to LIVE. I am asking him to throw his corpse directly at a very large target. One that will likely be alive while Harchefant is not as I just don't see him or Vivi making it through a minefield. Banjo knows what he's here for; to die in a hilarious manner that will please God enough to defeat his enemy for him. He's done that once before!

KanzarisKelshen posted...

Alright, read more. Question: is there a good sniping spot K. Rool can get to within 30 seconds before Estinien lands? Because if Kirby goes out to pick a fight with a wounded (but not anywhere near dead, maybe like, 20-30% injured?) Gael, Vivi and Haurchefant with sniping support...I think Estinien arrives to a dead-ass team (or one close enough to dead that the Dragonshadow Dive finishes them off, as its aoe can friendly fire). At which point, the match is kind of arguable. If no such sniping spot exists, however, things get much more complicated IMO.

The thing is basically that K. Rool and Kirbo are going in different directions. If you think of Grunty's Lair, it's a big-ass mountain with random biomes in it all stacked on top of one another. Kirby is going out the top and around to the enemy team, because living tremendous fall damage is a thing he can do and, y'know, flight. K. Rool and Banjo are going the long way, toward the center. The plan is to reach this room:

https://i.gyazo.com/90a3ffa4b6cf6b2abfe7df429048ccc4.jpg

The only entrance to it from the outside is the door on the left. Grunty's Lair is labyrinthine, but Banjo absolutely knows the way through it. K. Rool's ideal spot is the door on the right (where the spooky eyes are), which leads to a graveyard where he can fall back and play cover shooter. Also there's just big pools of lava down there so, y'know.

With Sagat to cover them, I don't see the point where K Rool doesn't reach the spot. Or find a nice one in general since, y'know. Can turn invisible.

Yeah Gael is nice but like.

Future gun tho.

And he's very clearly just with himself, Vivi, and Harche, especially after Sagat pissed him off x3 combo. And these are tight corridors, like K. Rool would take up the entirety of one. He's not gonna miss with an assault rifle (from the future).

As for Sagat's durability.

http://www.noe-v.com/images/articles/rf22.jpg

Yeah he takes a full clip from that. Does not care. Trading blows with Gael? Can do, and he's got the brute force to beat him back.

Oh yeah, nah, did not realize that.

Yeah Estinien still like. Super injured. Vrtra impressive, a little under Chaos Elfilis for me, though. Estinien still take major mondo damage.

And then best of luck slowly moving through the booby trapped lair with a clearly pissed off Gael and Vivi taken out, both of them out of their element because the ceilings are too damn small and I get to set up mines and camp anywhere I want for free, and not running into either bear in the process.

The Krack-Shot Kroc: King K. Rool

Let me tell you about guns. Right now, K. Rool has access to Garrus Vakarians abilities, granted to him via Kirby. This allows him some absolutely incredible abilities. First of all, yes, more land mines, ones that can easily be shot out, cause slow whenever someone detonates them, can be shot out every 6 seconds, and have an effective 4.5 meter radius, MUCH larger than any of Gruntys passageways. He also has a neat trick that fries robots, but more importantly, does stun any organic life for a short time in a cool chain lightning kinda deal. Fun at parties!

But lets talk weapons. Mass Effect guns are not your ordinary weapons. They are fueled by something called mass accelerators, which does exactly what it says on the tin: takes mass and makes it go really, really fast. Rather than using the force of an explosion, combustion, or something similar, a mass accelerator uses electromagnetic repulsion to shoot out metal slugs at quote supersonic speeds. Not only does this mean that ME guns shoot bullets faster than other bullets, but on impact with a target, these slugs squash and shatter on impact, creating this shredding shrapnel effect designed to not just punch holes in things, but deal maximum structural damage. This is why armor in Mass Effect is divided into three layers: one a kinetic barrier specifically designed to repel bullets until the system fails, avoiding damage altogether, a second, material barrier to actually try to mitigate the damage, and a third made of tech in order to rapidly repair the damage a single bullet could do. They made self-healing armor that has a second energy shield to repel the bullets, and it STILL mows people down like nothing! With all due respect, most armors? They aint cutting it, not even close. Understand that I am UNDERSELLING this if anything, considering the quote If accelerated to a high enough velocity, a simple paint chip can impact with the same destructive force as a nuclear weapon. is in the game and CAN hurt you.

K. Rool has an assault rifle full of that. And a sniper rifle. And he can turn invisible. AND Garrus specifically specializes in FURTHER armor-piercing rounds, ones that rend terrain advantages useless and try to poke through cover.

Not only can K. Rool pop out of nowhere and fill someone with exploding lead, not ONLY can he camp certain areas where he is GUARANTEED a good sniping position (my favorite being the entrance to Mad Monster Mansion, a big room with a solitary, narrow pathway over lava and then retreat into a spooky graveyard), but he has his regular blunderbuss, too! Now that might not seem all that special, but it can shoot out an exhaust cloud that freezes you in place! And guess what assault rifle does extra damage to frozen targets?

On top of this, think of clipping K. Rool? Hes not going down easy! Donkey Kong (famed for punching moons, deadlifting sunken galleons while on top of them, and slamming bananas) once uppercutted him straight through the metal roof of his airship. K. Rool then fell down his entire island (which is a swamp, mountain, amusement park, haunted forest, ice cave, and castle stacked on top of each other, in that order, and he was in a plane hovering well above them), got eaten by sharks, swam out of the swamp, immediately came up to fight Diddy, was blown into the source of his islands energy that exploded WITH him at the center and blew up the entire island and he lived and laughed as he sailed away. The guy can take a hit, like, hes got a Luca Blight series of getting beat up! And that aint his only showing, DK64 seeing him repeat the feat in a boxing match with Hunky Chunky, a 4x sized version of the normally 2000 pound gorilla punching him square in the jaw and launching him into a turnbuckle repeatedly.

and then he comes back on death, in the extremely unlikely event that hes not the last one left standing. AND he gets a free shot. With the super sniper rifle, guaranteed sneak attack. This sniper rifle normally kills marines with that super techno hyper shielded armor in one shot. In the BODY. Straight through the eyes? Not a chance in Hell youre gonna live that.

A straight up fight, this absolutely is not. This is multiple stages of Hell, friends getting picked off one by one to the various traps in the witchs lair. Worst case you dont buy Kirby, you dont think the regular bear does anything, Sagat barely slows anyone down? Banjo takes out the (literal) biggest threat in an insta-death divebomb, and from there, no one stands up to Garrus gun helmed by the Kremling Kommander. Not with mines literally slowing them, not with him able to turn invisible and live another day, not with a guaranteed shot if, against all odds, Estinien ends up making it to the end. There is no hope. Long live the Kremling Krew.

https://youtu.be/QjarPq9dW98

Banjo

Banjo is a bear. If any bear touches another merc that isnt Kazooie, both get sucked up by the King of All Cosmos and are outta here. Thus, Banjo has two goals: tell Kirby to get outside, and then die. Even Banjo can probably figure out that the giant dragon would probably be a great target to sacrifice himself to, and he has great options to charge in with. The Beak Bomb shoots Banjo forward at a stupidly fast speed, burning up some of Kazooies Red Feathers in the process; even if he gets mowed down, his corpse is probably gonna come into contact with a dragon in the process! If thats too difficult, the Wonderwing technique makes him completely invincible. And I do mean completely - the massive dinosaur Stomponadon, foot the size of Banjos house, can try and crush the bear all hed like, Wonderwing just powers through! This is TRUE invincibility, codified by Banjo being a video game-ass universe very aware that things like cheat codes exist and CAN hurt you. No, that dragon is gone.

Kazooie

Kazooies role is twofold: getting Banjo in close for his big moment of death, and making Gruntys Lair an absolute nightmare to get through. Kazooie comes equipped with Proximity Eggs, which yknow the Mine Thrower from Resident Evil? Its just that. Stick to walls, stick to ceilings, whatever - she shoots it onto a surface, it sticks on, it gets armed. Considering the close-quarters nature of Gruntys Lair, this means she can EASILY trap various doorways from a distance, and youre gonna just have to hope that you notice or can effectively minesweep! This is coupled with the Clockwork Kazooie Egg, tiny little remote-control bombs that she can control somehow without them even being in her line of sight anymore, able to be remote detonated at her leisure. These can both trigger her own mines prematurely and be used to scout out where the enemy is, meaning that getting the drop on her? VERY unlikely!

Sagat

Sagats contributions are essentially stall out the advancing force. Banjo knows where to go, so Sagat should be able to get to where hes going before the enemy does (there are many forks leading to dead ends in Gruntys Lair, some of which are in gross swamps and deserts and stuff!) Now, Sagat is more than capable of lasting a few rounds - hes beaten Kage, the very embodiment of Ryus Satsui no Hado, bodied the mechanical lifeform, Seth, calling him weak and hollow, and is in a league of strength with Balrog, who killed an elephant in one punch. He regularly ties with Ryu, whos grown strong enough to 1v1 Bison, and even is implied to have tapped into the Power of Nothingness, which sounds a lot stronger than it is (its like anti-Satsui no Hado? Like babys first Ultra Instinct? His mind is clear and makes him super good at fighting, basically, like, Street Fighters vague on it, I dunno what more you want). Is he gonna beat everyone? Unlikely but he can probably punt a child really well.

Bear

There is also a bear. Based on what center of the terrain would be, Id imagine its in the hub area connecting to Freezeezy Peak. This leads to multiple chokepoints, most notably the entrance to Gobis Valley, which is the only way to access this area from the lower levels of the lair. Considering that Vivis crew doesnt exactly have a map AND are being delayed by Sagat, Kazooie is gonna get to this bear faster than anyone else. And oh you KNOW shes gonna spook it with Clockwork Kazooie eggs, not touching it, but luring it toward the enemy. This bear ALSO will KO via divine intervention on touch. It is not necessary, but bear CAN solo ANYONE once. This bear is also an insurance policy; if a big scary dragon tries tearing through the lair to find K. Rool, this bear? Gonna fall right on it. Poof. Then Banjos free to warp away a new friend!

Okay I Need Some Convincing Version

Look, I get it. You see Kirby with a heart virus and an angry dragoon telling him his life ends in 30 seconds, you see a giant dragon supported by the worlds most lovable black mage, and then you look over and Ive got a goofy crocodile and a bird. This looks like a stupid fight. However, every single advantage, every intangible, works entirely in my favor. And those intangibles are K. Rool is the most dangerous man in this building, no shut up, he is, youre actually dead and oh man Kirby tho. KIRBY THO. This is A LOT, I want to cover every angle here. So please, do relax only check out the portions youre curious about or disagree with in the above, and enjoy.

Understanding Gruntildas Lair

https://i.redd.it/mz385ysvwsy41.jpg

Gruntys Lair is a sprawling system of small corridors with weird themed areas for each world. Its less a singular hub like Peachs Castle and more a system of smaller hubs that spiral up to the top, with a few branches here and there. The important thing to note is the starting locations: Kirby & Friends start in Dingpots Chamber, which is a small flight up to the very top of the lair. Team Vivi starts at the lairs mouth, connected directly to Spiral Mountain. The thing with this is, <i>The top of the lair is directly connected to Spiral Mountain</I>. Its a bit of a drop (as Grunty herself proved at the end of the game), but simply by jumping off the top of the lair, youll find your way to the bottom. Banjo is WELL versed in this, and knows very well that Kirbys time is short, so introducing the pink puffball (who has the Wing ability, mind you, making his ascent significantly faster) to the fastest route to the enemy to flank them is GONNA happen. Its also going to keep Kirby far, FAR away from his teammates when Estinien eventually lands which could very well be on Stone Kirby, as Stone is there to ensure that the little guy makes it to the ground with time to spare! And if anyone should try to get the same idea, fly up top? Well, its a damn long way to fall, Grunty taking a solid 20 seconds from fall to splat during her own tumble, and it likely takes longer to fall down than anyone could fly up! By that time, K. Rool and Banjo will be long gone, ready to hold up anywhere in the lair that theyd like in order to get a perfect stronghold.

Kirby

Kirbys improved a bit since the days of Super Star! Specifically, his showings in Forgotten Land are a MASSIVE step up! Please observe his battle with the final boss (who, surprisingly, has his True Arena form made canon, a first for the Kirby series!)

https://youtu.be/XKaGhrkkXd4

Keep in mind this is BASE FORM Kirby. He doesnt have any special powers for this fight, and here he is, taking on a cross-dimensional psychic being, enfused with the chaotic power lingering from Morpho Knight, a tiny butterfly who eats beings of incredible cosmic power and adds it to his own (you ever think about the little butterflies that follow Kirby around? Theyre trying to devour him. Hes too strong).Look on as Kirby is able to evade black holes, massive meteors, even a ball made of pure flame and hate (5:07), even a massive kaiju-sized stand with a spear the size of a skyscraper (2:10). Kirby can, of course, take these attacks, too - and that aint just gameplay talking! Kirbys been shown to take blows from foes like Meta Knight, who casually bats away cars wih a single sword swipe, survived massive explosions of energy against foes like Void Termina, and can generally take a bit of a walloping in spite of his tiny size!

So when I say hes gonna survive Estiniens massive drop? Yeah hes gonna be roughed up, but thats nothing he hasnt handled before! Its also very likely, in the fight timeline, that hes got Stone up, which yeah Stone just doesnt care about being hurt. Black holes, lasers, sword strikes that cleave reality-warping machines in twain, Stone just no-sells it. Im sure SOME damage would be taken in a mercs context, Im not about to argue i-frames forever, but I think it works out that Kirbys gonna avoid some damage - if he can react to a teleport right in his face, he can probably react to a jump given theyre outside and its a looooong fall to the base of Spiral Mountain.

Oh, and the little advantage of the Zenos form giving him some precognition, and it being his strongest form so hes probably gonna have it up. Yeah, no, hes got the tools to know the mans coming down.

This leaves an injured Kirby Vs Estinien, probably isolated from both teams (why would you go outside rather than going forward, especially when Gaels been provoked by some Tiger Shots and theres zero guarantee theres any entrance at the top?), as the most likely scenario for the Kirbster. And you might worry about Kirby, oh no, we dont like to see Kirbo hurt at all! Let me introduce you to the Morpho Knight Sword.

https://youtu.be/vmqbtf4r7uk

Forged from the remains of the dream eater himself, Morpho Knights sword isnt your average blade! You can see how fast it utterly SHREDS Kirbys regular foes, and this is in its weakest, unupgraded form! Its got incredibly fast strikes, can summon fire tornadoes, can grow in size to become a big-ass buster sword, controls the soul of the damned Fecto Forgo its eaten to track in on enemies (weird flex but it can do it!), but most important are two small features. One, it turns Kirbys dodge into a short-range teleport, wherein he is completely intangible, can attack right out of it, AND can spam it easily from point to point. And two, every single hit landed by the blade has lifesteal - if you dont catch Kirby as hes teleporting around you, hes constantly getting stronger. This is, by far, the most powerful form Kirby has ever had access to, and considering that he gets that cool time slow effect that Bayonetta and Link and all the cool action kids have whenever he dodges something, letting him get in a barrage of attacks too fast to react to? Yeah, no, I think hell be okay.

OH RIGHT AND HE ALSO COPIED ZENOS.

Now, I am not as qualified as my colleagues to argue Zenos. However, if Kirby ends up getting this guy off? Tidal waves, followed by lightning storms? Diamond dust freezing the ground around him, no bother for master ice skater Kirby, summoning an avatar who can also petrify during it? The combination of Swift as Shadow and Thorns, able to kill an endgame Warrior of Light in a single attack? All damage absolutely unavoidable in the center of it? Ripping lives directly from you? Estinien was one of those lives, I think, I havent played FFXIV but I think from secondhand osmosis I know you get a TON of souls ripped from you that belong to some friends! Bro hes only got one Estinien soul to give!

If ANYONE comes out to support Estinien in this outdoor fight thats a very bad decision! Whats Gael gonna do with non-functional legs, flail a crossbow out and then flop as hes swept away by the storm? Vivi does have reflect on him but then Kirbys got plenty of close combat to end his life with. Vtaras the one who is actually gonna contribute, but considering theyre probably struggling getting through the lair carefully (dont wanna bump into a bear, after all!), its probably gonna take them some time to get down!

KIRBY SOLOS? I dont think so, I think he more than survives to his expiration timer, but Im not sure he catches up to the rest of the enemy squad. But Estinien chose the wrong puffball to land on. At best, that man is going to be horrendously wounded. At worst, he calls his buddies in to a hopeless fight that he loses.

The Short Version

-Sagat is a solid stall to ensure that K. Rool and Banjo get in position.

-Kirby can fly out of the lairs top, which connects right to its mouth via a very long drop (which Wing and Stone facilitate for him). He is not going to be near the rest of his team - he's gotta bail outta there with his short life and they're not fast enough to accompany him! If he gets dragoond while stoning, thats gonna be frustrating for Mr. Drag-On Dragoon. If not, given Forgotten Land bosses and Zenos precog hes copying, he can take it. He heals up with his attacks and then OH NO ZENOS POWERS.

-Banjo is a bear. If he touches anyone other than Kazooie, both him and whoever he touches will go bye-bye via the King of All Cosmos. Banjos Wonderwing allows him.

-K. Rool and Kazooie both have mines. Gruntys Lair is filled with very tight corridors and chokepoints. Getting to them will be horrendous and arduous.

-K. Rool has two magical future guns. These guns are based on miniature mass relays, shaving off small ammo clips to launch them with electromagnets to supersonic velocities. These are not just bullets, they are superbullets. Superbullets that specifically pierce armor AND terrain AND shred through insides. This is on someone who can actively turn invisible and has another gun that freezes you.

-If K. Rool dies, he gets a free shot on anyone left alive with a supergun sniper rifle. This sniper rifle regularly kills space marines with space armor and psionic shielding with a BODYSHOT. No ones gonna survive.

-There is another bear here. If anyone touches him, they also die. Im sure hes nice.

I will now gladly argue that Kirby uses his Zenos tidal wave to knock every enemy out of the lair and onto Spiral Mountain, breaking their spines horribly.

Nah Metalmind, go crazy and ask questions, Mercs is a bunch of throwing stuff at the wall and imagining wild scenarios. Like I got to explain Kirby lore today as to why the copy ability works like it does based on old Miiverse posts and why that lets him turn into a dragon today, that's some goofy stuff I love doing! Enjoy at your own pace, all the info is mostly there if you REALLY wanna dig in and fill in the blanks, you just need to look at the openings and draw your own conclusions as amusing thought experiments. I'm mostly just here to go "look at how strong Kirby and K. Rool are, they are my boys and they are going places".

Kirby can actually regen his own health on-hit using the Morpho Knight Sword, which can be swapped to in a pinch (and is ultra evasive like, dude's got teleport spam like crazy with it going on. Trust me, I know, I spammed with it) and has the disruption wave effect which causes confusion (in Star Allies is actively makes your allies lose control and attack P1, even if they're normally human controlled. In Forgotten Land it screws with your vision). I do see it as a very valid option for later in the fight after his Zenos AoE stuff has really messed up Tifa and Kiryu, but I do admit "full heal" sounds juicier.

Y'know if they have time to drink it before they die.

Please keep in mind that Kirby and Aigis know this plan. Like they KNOW Selvaria has gotten these orders. Zenos and Selvaria have explicitly not been attacked at all so far, they are not under fire, only Tifa is and she hit a woman unprompted. Kiryu too but that's funny. Selvaria is comparatively not gonna give a shit past "OH NO MY LORD'S ULTIMATE CONQUEST"

With that said, for all of those who do think Aigis is absolutely dumpstered... that means Zenos is not focusing on Kirby. Please understand, if Aigis knows she is going to die, she is gonna do so making sure Kirby is 100% okay. Please understand, those Zenos attacks? Those are going RIGHT at a conflicted Selvaria and a stunned Tifa and Kiryu.

And THEN Kirby runs away. Probably injured after Zenos has dealt with Aigis, sure, but I am not seeing her go down in one here. Even when hit with lightning, she just gets ONE MORE'd and usually stunned, it's not like Pokemon where she becomes turbofodder'd instantly.

Though I do wanna ask Kanz a bit of a question - how does Zenos' "mild precog" work, exactly? Like what are its specific parameters, when it triggers, etc?

Metis is exactly equal to Aigis in strength for plot reasons.

"I was able to send myself flying with a punch" proves very little other than you're very strong we're all very proud. I couldn't do that. I would assume most robots designed for combat could, regardless of build, like if The Crushinator couldn't send The Crushinator flying, I'd be concerned about The Crushinator's prospects as a Crushinator!

I'm glad Zenos has swapped from cleaving her to shooting lightning specifically, though. If he's NOT cleaving her, Kirby has the opportunity to properly escape with her underground. "But how will Kirby know what option" well if Zenos has nifty little battle precog, Kirbo can make that work, too. Learn what's coming, react, escape. Like again, wanna emphasize Kirby is legit just. In the air, free to act. And also he's Zenos.

Johnbobb posted...

One thing I'm not fully sold on is Aigis. I get how Kirby gets away but how does she? Can she survive the initial onslaught? Trying to understand what Persona characters can do is difficult even when I've played the game, and hers I haven't. From what I can tell from her she's at her best at a range, but doesn't seem to be exceptionally mobile or durable.

Aigis has jets in her legs.

https://youtu.be/jbYvblCtz1I

She's good. Others of her model (or older) use it for flight and escape.

https://youtu.be/Ksa1lxoN-e8

I just think he's neat and has less distance to close to draw a weapon = )

All I need is one second. Kirby's regular abilities (Wheel, Twin Drill, Morpho Sword) all have elements perfect for running away, the former two WITH Aigis. Kirby can create that opening. Selvaria can create that opening. I really should've used a Tiger Shot on Zenos in retrospect but didn't wanna piss Selvaria off.

Also I would not be here if I was not creating a meme-ass strat backed up by "hol' up, this is kinda disgusting". Winning is boring, winning in ways people can't predict? That's class.

trdl23 posted...

I'm going to need some more info on Kirby, I think, it's kind of hard to believe he can copy everything 100% but the last Kirby game I played was Kirby 64

Alrighty, lemme use Morpho Knight as an example. Morpho Knight is the tiny butterfly you see at the start of most Kirby games. He's actually a cross-dimensional being who travels realities looking for beings made of the 'matters' to devour, such as Galacta Knight and Kirby (Kirby does not get instantly absorbed by this butterfly, by the way, unlike "the strongest warrior in the universe"). In Forgotten Land, Kirby gets his weapon, the Morpho Knight sword.

https://youtu.be/vmqbtf4r7uk

Not only does he get the sword itself, as well as the skill of Morpho Knight (who has absorbed Galacta Knight, who is like ancient Majin Buu-ass Meta Knight sealed away great evil swordsman, they're really good at swords is my point), he is also able to make the sword giant, shoot out Morpho's disruption waves (which causes friends to turn against each other for a moment in Star Allies, as a counter to Kirby's ability to bring friends together with hearts), spam short-range teleports, make his sword grow real big, shoot tornadoes, and even summon the soul of Fecto Forgo to attack people, someone who was recently absorbed by Morpho Knight. He even gets lifesteal on all of his attacks, absorbing his foes as he fights!

It's not just the simple concept of "oh I eat Zenos I get cool scythe and my reflexes super good~". All of Zenos' abilities, magical or even obtained from another source, are within Kirby.

Also Kirby has this form right now so like. If you wanna take "he ate the strongest warrior in his universe" at face value, please go right ahead!

Based on abilities, Selvaria treats Zenos like her lord/commander.

It's right dere on the wiki page.

KanzarisKelshen posted...

Sir, this is from the same game where Kanji fights with a normal-ass chair

Not that I'm opposed to free hype for my own mercenary, but there's still a vast gulf in power here between what you'd reasonably expect Yu to do with sword strikes vs what Zenos can do while beasting out, considering his baseline is shattering the guard of warriors who block swords the size of a tenement building and effortlessly resisting attacks from people who blow up artillery platforms. Whatever Yu can do, Zenos can outdo trivially. Aigis is very very done for.

I will not take Kanji disrespect. That is a chair given the power of the collective unconscious and fueled by Take-Mikazuchi. That chair is as powerful as you THINK a chair shot in wrestling is, where it writes you off of TV for a few months. Either that or chair is equal to Labrys, who again, cleave through military grade steel gate in not-gameplay, making it the strongest chair in the world.

I'm not arguing Zenos can't outdo it. But I feel there are multiple people's reactions (Kirby, Selvaria, and Zenos) that have to be taken into account, and Zenos has to not just win that three way quick-draw, but make up the most ground doing so (actually going to attack Aigis versus Kirby parrying directly next to Aigis versus Selvaria putting an ANYTHING in the middle of that clash).

trdl23 posted...

-Kirby does NOT do "everything Zenos can do." Garleans are biologically top-tier races in FF14, having simply evolved as such at the cost of being magicless. Zenos underwent further body transformaton to get over the whole "magicless" thing and use the absolutely ginormous amount of aether at his disposal.

I trust your FFXIV expertise, so let me explain a bit about Kirby's biology. Kirby is composed of one of the four primal elements of his universe, Heart Matter. All "matter", in this sense, is amorphous, able to take on the traits of anything that it decides to manifest around. This is how "Dark Matter" possesses things and transforms into a swordsman, "Soul" bosses revive from the souls of beings like Sectonia, Marx, and Magolor who have absorbed too much of a great power, and how the Dream Matter being, Fecto Forgo, was able to reconstitute itself as Chaos Elfilis. Kirby's copy ability is not just duplicating biology - it's a combination of knowledge, intent, and actual ability. This is why he's able to perfectly match Meta Knight, a lifelong trained swordsman, just by eating a blade - in fact, if he eats Meta Knight's Sword in Forgotten Land, he will instantly gain the abilities of MK, regardless of if his "sword" power level is greater OR lower than MK's at that time (ex. he has the Gigant Sword as his 'sword' ability, if he eats MK's he will still get the MK Sword).

He is eating the character and copying them, as intended, on a level equal to their character. It's like, eldrich primordial magic shit explained via Miiverse posts. Kirby is good at copying.

Drakeryn posted...

okay, so, exactly what is going on here

you mention that Tusk can remotely control Warg-gram with his thoughts. but he also seems to be able to physically control an unrelated third party, forcing him to move against his will? how exactly does that work?

So in that scene, Cinder is holding the sword (because he's a lava-fire man, so burning him with teeth and metal melting powers is not a thing Warg-Gram can do). Tusk is bantering, then tells the sword what it wants to do. Cinder tries holding on, the sword is stronger than he is and complies in spite of being held.

KanzarisKelshen posted...

This is also probably a good time to post a reminder of exactly how squishy Aigis is against swords:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ef/f2/4a/eff24a2727135a6b4d22a3a4bbd80bc0.jpg

If Yu Narukami can tear pieces of her off with a fairly ordinary katana, Zenos' magitek scythe should absolutely murder her. Bit of a strength gap, that.

Oh noooooo the man with the lightning sword swengthened by his persona (reminder that your STR stat is directly tied to your Persona, so that's an "ordinary" katana forged from materials in the collective subconscious) bwoke my headphones, I so weak ;-;

Please, Aigis is fine. Persona-users like Labrys (whose persona is not exactly 'strong' compared to others, like that's a fresh awakening) have broken military-grade steel gates in a single attack, and Aigis managed to survive an encounter with Thanatos (VERY strong boy in the context of personas) when she was at her absolute weakest.

Also I am sorry if Ms. "Can dodge bullets" and "would follow orders if it kills her" is somehow unable to get in front of Zenos and at least say SOMETHING before he's able to run forward. When Kirby, who by the way ISN'T EVEN HURT he's just in the air, is perfectly equipped to immediately get away with Wheel and Twin Drill, friendo in tow. Like, lemme reiterate that - Kirby is NOT stunned, Aigis has taken ALL of his damage, he's just there. If he wanted to (and he's a friend, he would), he can riposte an initial attack from Zenos if necessary. Why can Kirby do this?

Bro he's got the same weapon, power set, and reaction times (have you SEEN Samurai Kirby? He gets a variant of that, like, every game!)

And then things get said, Zenos KNOWS he wants to fight Tusk before Tusk has to go away and everyone else picks off Sagat, Kiryu probably says something profound about respecting your opponents and friendship while the sad sub-story music from Yakuza plays you know the one.

https://youtu.be/RP1FRaelzc8

Aigis is a walking arsenal. Inside of her frame is tons of weapons - literal finger guns, gattling guns, assault rifles, sniper rifles, grenade launchers, missile launchers, rocket boosters, you name it. How accurate is she? She was able to infiltrate a plane filled with terrorists and handcuffed each of them before they could fire a shot at her, one of them being disabled because she removed a button from another mans coat and flicked it at his forehead fast enough to disable him AND before he could pull the trigger on his pistol. Were talking ridiculous accuracy here. This is not what Aigis is here for. Please, feel free to look at Aigis spells:

Freidyne - Heavy Nuke Attack
Diarahan - Fully restores one allys HP
Matarukaja - Increases partys attack
Marakukaja - Increases partys defense
Masukukaja - Increases partys Hit/evasion rate
Marakunda - Lower defense (all enemies)
Aegis Shielding - Null Fire/Ice/Elic/Wind/Psy/Nuke damage to users row (requires active focus)
Samarecarm - Revive and restore all HP (1 ally)

This is in addition to physical arts like Agneyastra, which is just a meteor storm, and Gods Hand, where the fist of a holy lord comes down to punch someone in the face, some of these strongest physical skills available in the Shin Megami Tensei series. Aigis is not here to deal direct damage - she is here to ensure that not only does Kirby live, he is stronger that he could ever possibly be. Any damage Kirby takes, healed off. Stray elemental blows from Zenos, those arent gonna affect Kirbo through Aegis Shielding. He goes down for ANY REASON, and she gets him right back up to full. This also might passively help Sagat, too, which would be neat because the guy deserves his w against Kiryu. Selvaria has one revive in this fight. Kirby has as many as his friend will allow for. And Kirby ALWAYS protects his friends, no matter how far he has to go to do so. And because Kirby is so overwhelming offensively, Aigis can be allowed to focus on her support capabilities, purely avoiding damage and making sure Kirby either does the same or recovers from it. She CAN shoot out but she doesnt need to.

Oh, and if Tusk goes down she can probably prop him up, too. I dont see her healing him mid-fight because thatd definitely aggro Zenos to her and shes gotta support Kirbo, but if he loses (which will take longer than beating up Selvaria and Tifa)?

But just in case, we do have one more little trick for you. Ysee, Kirby has brought his Vivi form in here, too. Now, Vivi has an auto-reflect status cast on him in mercs. Kirby has some decent battle precog through Zenos. If Zenos would, say, get a huge attack that Kirby would happen to be in the way of, well, swapping to Vivi to bounce it back at everyone else wouldnt be too hard! Then he can go right back to Zenosing after he Zenosed your Zenos. Regardless of who wins Tusk v Zenos, Kirby will be there. He will be well rested. He will probably be buffed. And he will be ready to win. Pure offense was brought to a battle of attrition, glory seeking a great battle, and it loses in the face of a far greater force. Friendship.

tl;dr

-Kirby and Aigis escape, Selvaria will explain her orders INSTANTLY, she will know things are already going wrong and WILL stop her lord from ruining his own play however possible. Zenos likes fighting a worthy foe too much to waste the opportunity, Kiryu respects women.
-Aigis heals off all of her damage. During all fights, she is able to null all magic damage to Kirby besides darkness, and can revive Kirby on command.
-Tusk is durable enough and WARRIOR, LITERALLY REVIVED BY LIGHT enough to keep Zenos attention for pretty much the whole fight, if not actively give him a great fight.
-Anything Zenos can do, Kirby can do just as well. Selvaria and Tifa dont stand a chance with the AoE within the tighter confines of Gruntys Lair
-Sagat and Kiryu can have a cool man fight somewhere else if they want. It doesnt matter who wins, just imagine them having it.
-Aigis prevents Kirby and herself from being caught in AoE nonsense. Selvaria and Tifa do not have this luxury.
-Kirby can get auto-reflect when he feels like it.
-The simple thing is that healing and defenses provided by Aigis mean that this is a battle of attrition that can be won, and her natural mobility and reflexes are enough to keep herself alive while playing support.

So Kirby and Aigis are surrounded by bad guys. Not a great look! However, there is the matter of Selvarias message, one she believes to be from Zenos, who she sees as her lord, sworn to protect and obey, beyond her own safety or thoughts. Shes been told to keep that puffball and robot girl safe until Zenos can fight his great warrior (who is not the puffball in this case), and heres Tifa, already screwing that up! Sure, the girls getting punished with some Tiger Shots for her trouble, but theres no time to process this information. Selvaria WILL explain things at the first possible NANOSECOND, she will make the words of her lord understood, and probably everyone will say mean things to Tifa. Like, Zenos is going to want to enjoy the thrill of a good fight too much to NOT let them go (plus he knows Tusks stipulation, killing the weaklings in front of him means he does not get a potentially glorious battle), and whats Kiryu going to do, AGREE to punch a woman? Even if worst comes to worst, Kirby is perfectly equipped for a quick escape, burrowing into the terrain after grabbing Aigis with his Twin Drill ability. Kirby may not be the brightest bulb, but hes more than willing to help get his friends out of a tight jam, especially one who just protected him! All they have to do is get some distance and Wheel Kirby can just zoot Aigis right back up, she just needs to hang on and hell take her for a ride!. No, this fight is gonna take place fairly and squarely. And by fairly, I mean Zenos and Tusk are gonna duke it out, and everyone else is also gonna fight over to the side here. Everyone here wants that, except Aigis, who just wants Kirby safe.

But I have a feeling a big question is okay who the Hell is Tusk?

https://youtu.be/NJGo2fmUAII

Everything you wanted Conan the Barbarian and He-Man to be. That is Tusk. An immortal warrior, given endless life and the durability to match by the Ichorians, angelic beings of the Astral Plane that yknow just like. Angels and shit gave him immortality, alright? His sole purpose, defending the Earth from astral threats like Gargos, a demon that none else could even hope to wound. Equipped with the blade Warg-gram, forged from the most primal and unbreakable element of the Astral plane, Tusk well, to put it simply, he swings his sword at you, and you die. Please enjoy a few passages from the Killer Instinct novellas The Watchman Awakens and Conflux

***

Dont struggle, continued the stranger, speaking through an ugly slit of a mouth set in a featureless face. Youre not goin anywhere. Thats Ultratine youre wrapped up inproprietary tech, of course. Each cord is a hundred times stronger than the cables that hold up the Golden Gate Bridge.
(Followed By)
Cut me free, said Tusk again. And he closed his eyes in concentration.
I told you, it aint gonna happen.
I wasnt talking to you.
The runes on Warg-gram blazed to life and Cinders arm lunged forward suddenly.

What the blazing hell! cried Cinder. He tried to let go of the handle but he couldnt. The blade pulled him against his will all around the cargo hold, hacking at everything in sight, throwing up sparks, and wreaking havoc. Riptor scurried up the stairs leading to the second level, and vanished from sight. Cinder staggered forward like a puppet and swung Warg-gram at Tusk, but the blade merely sliced through the Ultratine netting as though it were nothing more than string, leaving Tusk unscathed. The barbarian dropped to the floor. Slowly, he stood up to his full height.

Now make a door, he commanded.
Cinder cried out as Warg-gram, still held in his hand, plunged into the steel floor up to the hilt, then dragged him around in a circle, cutting through the metal sheeting. The instant Cinder completed the circle, the sword flew from his hand and Tusk caught it in mid-air by the handle.
***
The dinosaur glanced up at the bound swordsman, then peered down at his weapon, snuffling at it. Reaching out its neck hesitantly, it picked up Warg-gram with its mouth. The handle instantly turned molten hot and the dinosaurdespite being a fire breatherhowled in agony as several of its teeth melted. It flung aside the sword and ran down the ramp to plunge its mouth in the cooling snow.
***
Tusk went into a dive position, holding Warg-gram out in front of him, the wind blasting his face as he reached terminal velocity. He reckoned he had a minute or so before he hit the ground. He thought about the young Asian woman hed seen in Warg-gram. He thought about the blue-skinned warrior. He thought of the Ichoriens and their making song He struck the ice with the sound of a bomb going off.

***

So the simple matter is, Warg-Gram is an utterly insane weapon. Able to follow Tusks commands with thought, capable of melting through steel, bone - it took a man made of lava in order to even get close to how hot the sword could get! Designed specifically to pierce a magical being, known as the only weapon in the realms that can slay Gargos (and the only one that actually HAS!). This is combined with Tusks 10,000 years of training and discipline, honing his reflexes, making him a warrior without peer. And sure, hes a fighting game character amongst the Killer Instinct cast, but he defeats Fulgore (imagine if The Predator were a robot) and ARIA (imagine if all of SKYNET were a robot and it wanted to step on you) in a single blow and mortally wounds Riptor (imagine a raptor, but technology and it breathes fire) in the process. He is not just guy with magic sword. He walks forward, he slashes you, and you WILL be cut in twain. You slash him, he will survive it - when stabbed in the heart by a fragment of Gargos via Shadow Jago, something made explicitly to kill him doing exactly what it was supposed to, Tusk just fell comatose for a while. Im not saying thats ideal, but I am saying that considering his terminal velocity fall, it is going to take a very, very long time for anyone to wear Tusk down.

Which brings us to his fight with Zenos. Now, I will not pretend that Zenos is not a worthy foe - he absolutely is. The sheer amount of damage he brings to the table is tremendous. But the thought of clashing blades with Tusk? That will be absolutely intoxicating. Tusk is seasoned enough to know how to avoid magical attacks, has slain dragons in the old world, can take on assaults from beyond the stars. A test of your reflexes? Bro SHADOW COUNTERS are the name of the game, get outta here, reversals are Killer Instincts entire thing! Tearing out out a life? Tusks life will NOT end, thank you very much, no matter how much he seeks it! The important thing is that this will NOT be a short fight for either of them, they both will be injured, and theyre both probably going to have a Hell of a good time.

Which leaves everyone else and uh. Yknow that Zenos guy? The one thats fighting Tusk? Kirby has his powers. Like, all of it. Tidal waves, lightning, precog, the rending of souls, freezing the ground and petrifying all around, becoming dragon, A TEST OF YOUR PUYO? Look, as much as Id like to argue that Kiryu and Sagat have a really awesome 1v1 over around Bubblegloop Swamp or something, they are 100% collateral damage in this fight. Or at least, Kiryu is. Kirby might have by far the best offensive output of everyone here, and can pretty handily keep Tifa and Kiryu out of their most effective ranges, but hes not soloing. He has a friend. (Contd Below)