Lurker > BetrayedTangy

Quina

Ghido

Quina

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

RockyNoHands is quadriplegic and beat Elden Ring with his mouth.

Yeah I had other examples I considered mentioning yesterday too, but I knew I would be called ableist if I did, which is why I wanted to end the debate.

TomNook7 posted...

Dude my brother has muscular dystrophy, where it can be hard for him to move his hands, but even he found a way to beat bloodborne.

There are people that would say this is an ableist statement. I'm not saying I necessarily agree with those people, I'm just trying to look at it from that perspective is all.

So I took some time to calm my emotions and I think it's important to say that Dark Souls is a game that's about ableism.

If that's something you disagree with on an ideological level that's fine. Nobody has the right to tell anyone else what they are or aren't capable of doing.

However I do believe that if someone wants to be ableist towards themselves that's perfectly okay too. The game's goal is to teach you that it's okay to do that.

All I was trying to say is that if you change the game, you're preventing people from discovering that for themselves and that's something I disagree with on an ideological level.

Debating ideologies is always messy, so again I'm sorry if I offended anyone with how explosive I was.

Ghido

I guess while I'm on the subject of opening up, I might as well elaborate on my defensiveness in this topic.

I was in a terrible spot a few years ago and had a crippling lack of confidence in myself. I couldn't trust myself to succeed in anything and had completely isolated myself from everyone. I only started the game as an attempt to distract me, I started off using a walkthrough, but little by little as I carried on, I stopped using the guide as much and started having fun. It was the best feeling I had in a long time and before long I was done with the game.

It was probably one of the most rewarding experiences of my life and it basically taught me that life can be hard and incredibly unfair at times, but as long as you persevere, everything's going to be okay.

Since then, I've moved, spent more time thinking about and working towards my future and as stated before I sought psychiatric treatment for the first time in my life. I know it's sappy and pathetic, but this franchise has been influential towards the growth of my mental health. While I still have a lot of learning and growth to do, I'm glad these games got me started on that journey.

It's sappy and pathetic I know, but I'm also not the only person who has had this experience. To me that is the magic of Dark Souls.

So if I offended anyone in this topic, I truly am sorry and that's really the last thing I have to say on the subject.

Quina

Kenri posted...

I would have preferred not to reveal this but I do have a disability (and theoretically one for which a pause button would be an accessibility feature, I think) and at least personally I'm fine with what Mac has been saying so far.

And that's fair, I appreciate you pointing that out to me.

As far as me ending that line of debate, there were actually a couple of reasons behind me saying that. One is I didn't want to speak for my friends that have disabilities.

As well as the fact that I'm currently seeking psychiatric help, because I've longed believe that I have one too and just haven't had the chance to go until now.

So I was simply avoiding self diagnosing as well as using others as examples of ableism. I just don't think one person has the right to speak for an entire community of people and it's not something I wanted to continue to partake in.

Gonna be honest, I'm still pretty grossed out by this debate and I'm not going to continue to entertain this idea of using people with disabilities as ammo in an Internet debate.

Kenri posted...

Speaking of remappable controls, it's fuckin amazing when that option is console-level instead of game-level, so you can still do it even when the game doesn't want you to.

Also strongly agree on this. There's a surprisingly large amount of adaptability controllers on the market.

MacArrowny posted...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcuPelhGlDc

Pausing is an accessibility feature.

Yes because random YouTubers are reputable sources and are leading experts in everything they talk about.

MacArrowny posted...

They're also designed specifically for people with good vision, hearing, reflexes, and ten fingers. And yet most devs (not From) put accessibility options in their games to help people with disabilities play. Some people enjoy games in different ways, and that's okay.

If you don't have a disability it's pretty gross to use those with them as a tent pole for your argument.

If you really cared about the disability angle you'd mention things like colorblind mode or remappable controls, but you're not. The only thing people are demanding in here is pausing and an 'Easy mode'.

Last time I checked being busy and sucking at video games aren't disabilities.

That take is right up there with the victim blaming line from last night.

MacArrowny posted...

No. I would not agree. I do think it's sad you can't empathize with people who live different kind of lives from you, though.

Are you really trying to virtue signal right now?

Video Games are great, but they're hardly a necessity and even then there's tons of games designed specifically for people with busy schedules.

Hell this past month, I really wanted to watch Succession, but I was broke and couldn't afford HBO. So guess what? I went without it until I got paid. Should I be blaming the streaming service?

Or keep the game exactly the same, because FromSoft doesn't have to change their creations for anyone.

notdave posted...

i think we're up to four people who have replied to "I would enjoy this game if it simply had a pause button" with "maybe you should never play video games at all"

Why are you only pointing to the two extremes? Is there something stopping you from playing Sekiro or Nioh?

ctesjbuvf posted...

I get that. I just don't think it was everyone who said that who would appre a pause option.

Yeah that's totally fair.

I guess a similar example on my end would be the original Resident Evil.

The limited number of saves and strict inventory management has deterred me for years. I wouldn't say that's an issue with the game though, it was designed specifically to stress you out.

So while it might be considered 'bad game design' by today's standards, I think it helps the game stand out more in spite of it now.

Honestly, talking about it in this context kinda makes me want to try it now anyway.

notdave posted...

Most people in here have said they wouldn't enjoy the games less if you could pause.

I wouldn't be able to enjoy this comedy skit, if the games had pause buttons

https://youtu.be/_uk_v0st-nY

Not having the pause button is one of many examples that helps the Souls games stand out and feel unique in comparison to other games.

ctesjbuvf posted...

I feel like like the fans in here are too defensive about it.

We're tired of defending our niche community and being told we're wrong for liking it.

All we're saying is that we think these games are perfect as is. They don't need specific features to be good or even playable.

Colegreen_c12 posted...

Sorry but I disagree. People are blaming people for having interruptions in their life instead of blaming the game for not allowing basic courtesy to account for it.

Obviously it's not nearly as important but surely you wouldn't think that unless your being ridiculous

This doesn't make any sense. You're acting like games are on the same level as real life obligations. If I have work in 15 minutes I'm not going to start playing a JRPG.

Video games can wait, I haven't had time to finish Sekiro yet, but I'm not going to blame an inanimate object for that. I'll just wait til I can get some time off work, then play it. It's not like it's going anywhere and there's plenty of smaller games to play in the meantime.

Kenri posted...

Every single person who has played Dark Souls has a story of "I had to just fight this boss over and over until I eventually got it". That's winning by attrition. The alternative would be, like, you can't win unless your stats are higher than X no matter how well you play.

(To be clear, this isn't a bad a thing.)

There was an interesting video I saw on this subject, but I can't find it atm.

But basically the theory is that if you try the war of attrition, it's actually making the game harder for you. The 'best' strategy is to give it a few tries then take a break and get some rest.

I'm sure all of us have had moments where we've been stuck on a game, just to get past it first try the next day.

tazzyboyishere posted...

There's a small difference between removing most of the game from existence and making enemies do less damage, buddy

Well seeing as how most of the game revolves around how balanced the combat is. Then, yeah, I'd say that's removing most of the game, buddy.

kevwaffles posted...

Celeste's is buried in a menu. Get over it. I promise no one using it lessens your accomplishments in any way.

Honestly my core belief with this is that it should be up to the developers. If FromSoft were to add an easy mode, yeah I'd get over it.

They said they're not planning on it, so I don't see why everyone is still so concerned about it.

tazzyboyishere posted...

Wtf is this argument? Is this a trap?

Modding a game changes said game, therefore changing what the core experience is.

Dark Souls and modded Dark Souls are two different games and therefore are two different experiences.

MacArrowny posted...

Millions of people play and enjoy easy mode mods for Souls games. You're dead wrong.

If I modded all the dungeons and combat out of OoT am I still playing Ocarina of Time?

skullbone posted...

These little backhanded comments are so weird. You seem to be taking it way more personal than everyone else in this topic that some people might want to pause the game lol.

Because I'm tired of the "If something doesn't appeal to me, it's bad" argument.

It's not just a Souls thing either. Majority of debates I've seen anymore usually just boildown to skin deep complaints and it's exhausting to read.

It's like complaining about The Godfather being a slow movie. If you don't like slow movies that's fine, but acting like the movie is bad because of it is asinine.

skullbone posted...

Yeah that's the level of gatekeeping I really don't understand with these games. It's like other people playing on easy impacts your experience somehow which is confusing.

Nobody's gatekeeping you. The only person stopping you from playing the game is yourself.

There are plenty of ways to make these games easier. Walkthroughs, glitches, mods, cheese tactics, spirit ashes, summoning, etc. You can play it however you want.

If you don't want to put in the effort, then that's fine too. Nobody's forcing or preventing you from doing anything related to these games.

skullbone posted...

Even if it's a minority there are people who want to play these games and can't because they're too difficult for them.

Then they're not actually interested in playing the games.

The difficulty is a core part of the experience. If someone wants to play an easy Souls game, then there's plenty of Soulslikes on the market with difficulty options and pause buttons.

skullbone posted...

So why are Dark Soul fans so against just opening the franchise up to more people? Plenty of hard games have easy modes, it feels a little gatekeepy to say that Dark Souls is good because it's too hard or inconvenient for some people.

Because it goes against the artistic integrity of the game. The intended experience is fundamentally changed by adding difficulty options.

It's even backed up by the lore. Every player is considered an Undead. So if an Undead gives up on their quest they eventually lose their sentience and turn Hollow. So the game is basically saying if you quit the game for good, your character goes Hollow and becomes a basic enemy.

If you take away the difficulty, you take away a crucial piece of the concept. Artists shouldn't have to change their work to meet the demands of others. Plus it's clearly worked in their favor, so I don't see a reason why they should change it at this point.

Kefka
Freya

Quina
Ghido

MacArrowny posted...

Sekiro being the only one that lets you pause normally kinda implies that it's a multiplayer issue.

Not exactly, Sekiro doesn't have the inventory issue either since there's only one primary weapon.

Also Sekiro allows you to pause, but I doubt that'll sway anyone's opinion.

TomNook7 posted...

It's like fromsoft got tired of people complaining about a lack of difficulty settings, and designed a beginner mode directly into the game

And then they continued to complain about a lack of difficulty settings anyway

TomNook7 posted...

these games are less about "having fun"

Lol probably not the best way to phrase that. Me personally, fromsoft is some of the best fun ive ever had with games

Oh I agree with you wholeheartedly, but a lot of people won't find something like that fun. Which is unfortunate, but still true nonetheless

Steiner posted...

ah

Well at that's the other half of it. The difficulty curve is amazing. As you get better and continue to learn the game, you start having more fun. So by the time you reach NG+ the entire game just turns into a huge power trip as you blitz through areas the kicked your ass the first time through.

Might not be for you, but that's why the games are so celebrated.

The reason Souls has become so celebrated is because it throws out traditional gaming conventions (like pausing, difficulty settings, etc.)

It's certainly not a franchise for everyone, because these games are less about "having fun" and more about going on a journey and facing challenges that you simply won't get in other games.

These games are popular for a reason, anyone claiming that these games are bad are completely missing the point of what FromSoft is doing. If the games aren't for you that's fine, but that hardly makes them bad games.

AriaOfBolo posted...

-Is loot set or randomized?

Loot is pretty much set, although enemies have the chance of dropping several different items

-How much story is there? I know it has SOME but pretty much every time I've watched somebody play it's two lines of dialogue followed by three hours repeatedly dying to some giant guy with a sword.

A LOT if you read into it and it's really good. It's mostly through environmental storytelling and item descriptions, but the fanbase has compiled most of the lore online. So it's not hard to find if you're curious about a particular area or character.

-What would you say is the main appeal? The challenge? Making builds? Settings?

All of the above.

Each game has different strengths and weaknesses. Bloodborne might have the best lore, but Sekiro wins combat, Elden Ring has the best sense of discovery, etc.

Quina
Ghido

Quina
Ghido

No

Easily the second worst Disney Princess

I think that's a dead Exdeath

Gilgamesh

Quina

Snap
Metroid

Oh Terra's safe

Vincent

Ghido
Terra

Oh wow I'm late