Lurker > red sox 777

You know, the Soviet Union once left the UN Security Council, and in their absence, the Security Council authorized sending troops to Korea to fight against North Korea. The UN human rights stuff has always been ridiculous in that countries with major human rights abuses have consistently held seats on the council. If we're going to continue/increase human rights abuses, it's probably better that we don't sit on that council.
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The fact that the unemployment rate statistic counts long-term unemployed as not seeking work and therefore not part of the denominator is a huge flaw in the stat. It is ironic that now that he's in office, Trump regularly cites the same statistic.
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Do you consider UKIP and AFD to be alt-right? Incidentally, I wonder how much support a similar party would have in the US, if the US system was more conducive to third parties.
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This early in the game, you should probably just let the ball go in rather than handball it.
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They want it to be known and feared. It is supposed to be a deterrent. I dunno if they are proud but they are very open about it.
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Jakyl25 posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

Yet both were more popular than Mitch!

How does Mitch keep winning re-election?

Is literally everyone that likes him in Kentucky?

He does the dirty work that moves the GOP agenda forward. People may not like him but they understand the value he delivers for the GOP.
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A poll came out today that Kim Jong Un is already more popular than Nancy Pelosi with Republicans. I feel like, Iran could probably get a sweet deal where we drop all sanctions and pay them double what Obama did, if they start denouncing Hillary Clinton.
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Jakyl25 posted...

How hard would Tesla stock have to crash to make life difficult for him financially?

For it to go to zero, or close to there. Yes, it does happen. GM went to zero, and they actually had a history of profits while Tesla has run losses in every year since it was founded.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Eddv posted...

Maybe its just growing up working class but to me "not having to worry about how im going to pay the bills" is rich.

It sure feels like that, but the realization that there is another, higher class of wealth that is obscene to even comprehend puts that in perspective.

Being able to pay the bills doesnt mean youre prepared for an emergency. If a single disaster can destroy your life financially, youre not rich. There is no single thing that can happen to destroy Elon Musks wealth short of an extinction-level event.

All it would take is Tesla stock crashing hard, and a few bad investments of his pre-Tesla wealth. Not that hard, considering the company has never turned a profit ever.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Like, to me, having enough wealth to live your best life isnt rich. I believe that level of wealth SHOULD be attainable.

Rich to me is having more money than you can possibly need.

But the richer you are, the more money you need.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Im assuming the definitions of rich were consistent in the poll

Im specifically calling out people that say We are worse off because rich people exist and then say I want to be a rich person.

I would be very interested what a median Democrat thinks is rich and a median Republican. I would expect a pretty big gap between the dollar amount to count as "rich."
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He's running unless he thinks he'll lose, which he won't think because he believes he is an electoral genius. The Republican Party follows Trump because they know they'll lose elections if they don't. He eviscerated the best 16 people they could put forward, humiliating them with childish insults. They are the party of Trump now, for better or worse.
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JeffreyRaze posted...

At this point even if I assume everything you're saying is true and that is actually what Trump is arguing, it's still not good. Even with the most positive possible interpretation of Trump's statement, he's still said something vague enough to look like a complete lie if taken at face value over what he's declared to be an official channel of the president of the US, which would be gross incompetence and still condemnable, though less so. Can you at least condemn him for that?

You want me to condemn him for being unpresidential? I agree that he is unpresidential, but don't agree that must necessarily be a bad thing. If it is bad, there's far worse things a president can do.

I have condemned, and continue to condemn, the policy of separating children from their parents. That is an example of something I find very wrong.
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xp1337 posted...

As much as I don't want to wade into this argument given the current situation because this isn't even on the radar of things I care about right at this moment:

red sox 777 posted...

1) migrants generally commit crimes at a higher rate than the native population

wrt Illegal Immigration in America this is false. I admittedly don't know what the figure is if you included legal immigration as well.

I strongly suspect that legal immigrants commit crimes at much lower rates than natural born Americans. But would not be at all surprised if immigrants committed crimes at higher rates in Germany - because Germans commit "crimes" at lower rates than Americans, and doesn't have an absurd criminal "justice" system that leads the world in incarceration.
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HashtagSEP posted...

red sox 777 posted...

JeffreyRaze posted...

Crime in Germany is way up.

This is the statement by Trump. It is a direct quote. This statement is blatantly false. Can you please condemn it.

You are ignoring the context and being intentionally dumb about understanding his words. 1) What Trump literally says is not what he means. 2) All language should be understood in its context. 3) After 3 years of making hyperbolic statements daily, haven't you learned that 99% of the time, Trump's statements should not be taken literally?

Why should it be the public's fault for taking anything he says literally, and why should it be on them to just know these things, instead of on the man making the claims in the first place?

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me every single day for 3 years.......
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

red sox 777 posted...

2) America should stop migrants from entering.

why would this statement need a "rebuttal"? the burden of proof is on trump to say WHY america should stop doing this. "migrants commit crimes at a higher rate than the native population" is not good enough.

You should understand the purpose of Trump's statement is to win support for himself and the GOP in the US. The burden of proof, then, is what the voters decide it is. And Trump got elected in the first place because Democrats adopted nonsensical strategies like not offering a rebuttal at all.
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JeffreyRaze posted...

Crime in Germany is way up.

This is the statement by Trump. It is a direct quote. This statement is blatantly false. Can you please condemn it.

You are ignoring the context and being intentionally dumb about understanding his words. 1) What Trump literally says is not what he means. 2) All language should be understood in its context. 3) After 3 years of making hyperbolic statements daily, haven't you learned that 99% of the time, Trump's statements should not be taken literally?
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Also, the crime rate among immigrants can drop as a result of the crime rate among existing immigrants dropping, even if the crime rate among new immigrants is higher. If the crime rate among immigrants started off higher than for the native population, one would expect the immigrant crime rate to drop as people stay in their new country longer and the causes of the initial high crime rate (poverty, unfamiliarity with culture, lack of knowledge of laws, etc) dissipate.

None of this rebuts Trump's argument, which appears to me to be that 1) migrants generally commit crimes at a higher rate than the native population, and 2) America should stop migrants from entering.
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JeffreyRaze posted...

red sox 777 posted...

JeffreyRaze posted...

red sox 777 posted...

The German government is currently is something of a crisis, with the CDU and CSU talking about splitting, which would force new elections, over the migration issue, so Trump's not wrong that there is a lot of anger in Germany over the government policies on migration.

Before anyone gets into this discussion, I think it'd help your image a lot if you were willing to condemn Trump over the crime rate lie first.

I don't think so. If anyone has data since, say, 2011, covering the period since the refugee crisis in Europe started, that would allow us to decide if the gist of Trump's statements is true or not. That the crime rate among non-Germans fell from 2016 to 2017 is itself far from sufficient, as Trump made no claims with that degree of specificity. I'm also pretty sure that the majority of non-Germans in Germans are citizens of other EU countries and not refugees. The EU has free movement of its citizens after all.

The overall crime rate is the lowest since 1992. Crimes by immigrants are not rising in proportion with the increased numbers, and crimes against immigrants are also dropping.

The overall crime rate doesn't prove anything about migrants. The vast majority of people in Germany are German. The next largest group is EU citizens from other countries (please correct me if this is wrong, I'm not certain). Even among immigrants, there are a lot of people who are not refugees from the Middle East.

The most tenuous thing about what Trump said is actually his implicit equating of refugees from the Middle East to migrants from Central America. That's an assertion made without evidence, and done well enough that no one here called him out on it.
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

red sox 777 posted...

Trump's not wrong that there is a lot of anger in Germany over the government policies on migration.

it's one thing to say that there's a lot of anger, it's another to say it's "strongly and violently changed the culture." total bullshit as far as my country goes and i'd be surprised if it applies to germany either.

I've never seen Trump talk about anything without using extremely strong hyperbole. He just doesn't use light or moderate strength words.
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JeffreyRaze posted...

red sox 777 posted...

The German government is currently is something of a crisis, with the CDU and CSU talking about splitting, which would force new elections, over the migration issue, so Trump's not wrong that there is a lot of anger in Germany over the government policies on migration.

Before anyone gets into this discussion, I think it'd help your image a lot if you were willing to condemn Trump over the crime rate lie first.

I don't think so. If anyone has data since, say, 2011, covering the period since the refugee crisis in Europe started, that would allow us to decide if the gist of Trump's statements is true or not. That the crime rate among non-Germans fell from 2016 to 2017 is itself far from sufficient, as Trump made no claims with that degree of specificity. I'm also pretty sure that the majority of non-Germans in Germans are citizens of other EU countries and not refugees. The EU has free movement of its citizens after all.
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Jakyl25 posted...

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1008696508697513985?s=21

The people of Germany are turning against their leadership as migration is rocking the already tenuous Berlin coalition. Crime in Germany is way up. Big mistake made all over Europe in allowing millions of people in who have so strongly and violently changed their culture!

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/18/politics/german-crime-rate-trump-immigration/index.html

But data from the German government suggests Trump's hypothesis on crime is incorrect. Statistics from the Federal Ministry of the Interior show that 2017 saw the lowest number of crimes committed in Germany since 1992. The number of non-German suspects dropped almost 23% from 2016 to 2017.

Never seen Trump say anything racist!

The German government is currently is something of a crisis, with the CDU and CSU talking about splitting, which would force new elections, over the migration issue, so Trump's not wrong that there is a lot of anger in Germany over the government policies on migration.
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Would be nice if Republicans would go ahead and use the nuclear option in the Senate. Then there'll be no more excuses or blaming Democrats for inaction.
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I do love the electoral college, and would probably support it even if it favored Democrats. I'll try to clarify what positions are mine in the future, since it seems a bunch of people think it hasn't been clear.
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

red sox 777 posted...

I make contrarian posts but not dishonest ones

red sox 777 posted...

I make posts I don't necessarily agree with for the purpose of fostering discussion.

?

It's not dishonest unless I'm saying, "X is what I think." What I'm saying is often, "X is what someone thinks, and this is why they think it. You should understand how they think."
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

red sox 777 posted...

It's the openness of the other side to consider other positions that is the hallmark of discussion and you don't get that unless the person stating positions is actually in the discussion (which whoever made the Twitter post is not, since they aren't here and can't respond).

i think what you're looking for is "debate" and not "discussion." this is probably why you make dishonest, contrarian posts. you want people to argue with you.

i'm not entirely sure why you think it's necessary to do this. i assume it's because, like many, you have a problem with this topic being a "liberal echo chamber." it kinda is, and i'd like to have conservative voices here too, but i don't really see an easy way to solve this. the problem is that the "conservative voices" of the board make EXTREMELY bad and dumb posts about politics. i'd rather let this topic stay a liberal echo chamber than have ulti, MWC and sephyg go berserk here (corrik is probably the best of the bunch tbqh, but i have my issues with his posts as well).

i think it's better to just let this topic be the way it is than try to generate debate (or discussion) with disingenuous posts. because of your "discussion" posts, 90% of the regulars think you're annoying and want you to stop posting here. are you fine with that?

My feeling is that none of the people here who I respect find me annoying. For the others, I really don't care what they think. In fact, if they think I'm annoying I'm probably saying something right.

I make contrarian posts but not dishonest ones (unless you count obvious jokes like my global warming/evolution polls). I think maybe people perceive my posts as having a devil's advocate flavor is that my focus is often quite different from theirs. For instance, I post a lot about how Republicans win elections and win in Congress. Some people want me to take a personal moral position on Republicans, and I don't do that when discussing election strategy, because it's irrelevant.
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Discussion generally isn't hard in this topic. There are a bunch of users here who engage in good faith. Otherwise, I wouldn't bother posting. I usually just ignore the people who add nothing and that prevents me from wasting time on unpleasant arguments like this one.

I don't know why some people say they hate my posts so much and yet simply can't help themselves but respond to seemingly every one of them. If you can't stand to see people express opinions you disagree with, I'll give you a hint. You won't change anyone's mind (including mine) unless you present actual, good, arguments. At best, you can get people to fall in line because they are afraid of you or see some benefit to doing so. So I strongly recommend either posting something productive or nothing.
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In fact, you are being rude, and I can't remember having read any posts by you that could be considered quality discussion.
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

red sox 777 posted...

You actually contribute, unlike about 50% of the people here. The 90% figure is a but-for figure, since you need two sides to have a discussion on anything.

i disagree that the people who post news articles don't contribute anything, though. usually people who post news add their own take on it, like in this post, for instance:

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/76701362/903051010

also, you often get one or more people responding to the news article.

what you're describing is what muffin does in the freedom topic half the time - tons of times he'll just link to an article without adding any commentary whatsoever of his own (or very little - at times he'll add a "yup" or whatever). i find that pretty annoying as well. i go to that topic to read and participate in interesting dicussions on libertarianism/anarchy, not to see a reason.com feed. i'd say that without your posts and corrik's posts this topic series still contains a healthy amount of discussion, though.

I haven't read the freedom topic for a few years, didn't know that was Muffin's posting style now. And I don't mind people posting news, even if it's in the form of links to Twitter, but that in itself is not discussion. It's the openness of the other side to consider other positions that is the hallmark of discussion and you don't get that unless the person stating positions is actually in the discussion (which whoever made the Twitter post is not, since they aren't here and can't respond).

And yeah, 90% is too high, I mean I think I went several months without reading this topic at all. My perception is probably influenced by there being a bunch of users here who I can't remember having seen make a single post with actual content of their own, beyond parroting their agreement/disagreement to someone else's idea.
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I'm not going to pretend I remember everything I said 2 years ago, and I really don't think it matters. If you find my posts neither interesting nor funny, you are perfectly free not to respond. If you actually disagree with what I say, by all means, you're welcome to explain why you disagree. Posting repetitive personal attacks that completely ignore the content of my posts is ridiculous, and while the fact that multiple people do it here may make it feel more acceptable, that really doesn't make it any more acceptable, civil, or productive.

If all you want is a curated news feed, I suggest making a topic for it. There are so many sources on the internet for political news, that I highly doubt I would find such a topic interesting.
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LapisLazuli posted...

You've specifically admitted to making post you don't even necessarily agree with for the sole intent of getting people riled up to argue with you.

You've got very little ground there, it's what you want to happen.

When did I say that? I make posts I don't necessarily agree with for the purpose of fostering discussion. Getting people riled up has nothing to do with it.
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If you don't like my posts, why don't you just not respond to them?
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Also, it's kind of crazy how users who admit they don't read my posts or Corrik's persistently respond to them with personal insults. Up to now I've followed a policy of ignoring such harassment and that's probably the best way to deal with it, but this kind of behavior is really unacceptable and should be called out at least once.
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I guess, there's a fundamental difference of opinion here about what the topic is for, or what is interesting. Maybe we should divide this topic into 2 topics - Politics News and Politics Discussion?
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

red sox 777 posted...

I'm pretty sure that Corrik and I generate 90% of the discussion in this topic. The rest is just people posting news articles.

i rarely post news articles.

You actually contribute, unlike about 50% of the people here. The 90% figure is a but-for figure, since you need two sides to have a discussion on anything. But there are a number of liberals here who do make interesting posts.
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I'm pretty sure that Corrik and I generate 90% of the discussion in this topic. The rest is just people posting news articles.
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Who gets your vote to be US President?
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redrocket posted...

red sox 777 posted...

I heard an interesting theory about Noah. The Bible says that Noah preached about the coming doom for 100 years, yet only 8 people ended up going on the Ark with him, all of whom were his own family. Why is it that in 100 years of preaching, Noah managed to win exactly zero converts? The theory is that Noah did not love the people (so, for instance, there is no record that he ever prayed for them, which is something he would have done if he genuinely cared about them). People are perceptive and could tell that he did not love them, so no one listened to his warnings.

Does this relate to the current discussion somehow?

Yes, "loving evangelicals" was brought up as well as aggressive proselytizing and it made me think of that.
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I heard an interesting theory about Noah. The Bible says that Noah preached about the coming doom for 100 years, yet only 8 people ended up going on the Ark with him, all of whom were his own family. Why is it that in 100 years of preaching, Noah managed to win exactly zero converts? The theory is that Noah did not love the people (so, for instance, there is no record that he ever prayed for them, which is something he would have done if he genuinely cared about them). People are perceptive and could tell that he did not love them, so no one listened to his warnings.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Peace___Frog posted...

What about that poll that showed that they were the only religious group whose moral judgments on what the president should or shouldn't do changed dramatically from before and after the election?

I specified loving evangelicals, not self-professed ones

Does this category include evangelicals who love unborn babies a lot?
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Evangelicals supported Trump bigly. They said they didn't but they voted for him en masse because he was the lesser of two evils. And he will always be the lesser of two evils no matter what unless the Democrats do a complete 180 degree turn on their social policies.
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

red sox 777 posted...

At least as rational and with a better knowledge of the facts!

how do christians have a better knowledge of the facts than atheists?

Atheists don't think so! And Christians do! That's a disagreement on the facts.
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Ashethan posted...

red sox 777 posted...

Atheists don't want to call atheism a religion so they can make ridiculous arguments that people they disagree with have a burden of proof.

Burden of Proof IS on anyone saying there's a god.

If I say "I am god." The burden of proof is on me to prove it, not for you to disprove it.

It really isn't. If you want to convince me, then perhaps it is, but if you believe that, it's obviously already proven to you. If I want to convince you otherwise, I'm gonna have to provide some convincing evidence.
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Jakyl25 posted...

red sox 777 posted...

Actually, I haven't heard Christians claim to be irrational themselves.

Faith is by definition irrational. If you could prove it with reason, it wouldnt be something that needed to be believed.

That makes it independent of reason, not irrational. I would say arational, but I'm not sure that's a word.
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

red sox 777 posted...

Actually, I haven't heard Christians claim to be irrational themselves.

yeah, i phrased it incorrectly. what they say is "we're just as rational as atheists!!"

At least as rational and with a better knowledge of the facts!
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Atheists don't want to call atheism a religion so they can make ridiculous arguments that people they disagree with have a burden of proof.
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Putting aside issues of nationality, would you vote for Hillary to be your country's leader?
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

Peace___Frog posted...

Ok, let's get past red sox being an edgy devil's advocate.

i'm afraid he actually believes the "atheism is a religion" crap. you hear tons of christians use this logical fallacy to go "atheists are just as irrational as we are!!"

Actually, I haven't heard Christians claim to be irrational themselves. The closest is Kierkegaard who says that faith is independent of reason, which is not the same thing as irrational. This rational/irrational thing sounds like a distinction created by atheists and projected onto Christians.
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I've also heard plenty of Christians say that Christianity is not a religion. Because it's a relationship with God/The Truth.
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It's true that people use it in the sense that you describe, but, to my knowledge, no one in this topic does. This discussion originated out of Jeff Sessions' citation of the Bible in support of his policy of separating children from their parents. To my reading of the Bible, that is exactly the opposite of what it says and the policy is not Christian or Biblical. But Jeff Sessions disagrees, and he is entitled to disagree - I don't get to say that he isn't being Christian, and, as far as the law and constitution are concerned, his religion is equally valid as mine, even if I think mine is supported by the text of the Bible. That's because the government is prohibited from judging between beliefs.
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