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TopicPolitics Containment Topic 180: The Summit All Fears
red sox 777
06/12/18 7:58:30 PM
#50
Icehawk posted...
How does it dictate their choice of president? The logic in sanctioning Trump businesses is that Trump doesn't care about how trade wars affect every day Americans. The only thing he cares about is himself. Hurting Trump instead of actual people is the most effective way to get through to him. He is only vulnerable to this because he lied, as always, and did not divest from his businesses.


Getting through to Trump is not the important thing. Getting through to the American people is the important thing.

And if other countries are really going to trade 100 billion in tariffs on them for 10 million in tariffs on Trump businesses, that's a big win for Americans. It's basically putting in tariffs without any retaliation. After "negotiating" a deal that good, Trump could start a donation site and get back more than he lost from the sanctions from Americans happy about what a great job he did renegotiating our trade deals.
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TopicPolitics Containment Topic 180: The Summit All Fears
red sox 777
06/12/18 7:48:53 PM
#48
Icehawk posted...
red sox 777 posted...
Icehawk posted...
I know the NK thing is HOT, but we have an "agreement" on both sides that means absolutely nothing, so I don't think it warrants tons of conversation, outside of several embarrassing Trump moments the last 24 hours. There is nothing on paper, and NK is not serious about this. Nothing serious is going to come from a meeting between the two top leaders, "planned" out like a month in advance, and a president who thinks attitude is all that matters. It's all just a photo op.

I'm more interested in what will actually matter, trade wars that are inbound.

A. Do you think there are enough republicans with balls to actually get legislation through that stops trump's tariffs? (No)

B. Do you agree with this article, that the best way to handle trump would be to sanction his own businesses instead of the country at large? I think it makes sense, though I imagine the politics in the home countries would be bad, as it wouldn't be a strong enough response in terms of pure dollars..

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/6/5/17422492/sanction-trump-organization


If they want to guarantee Trump and the Republicans win reelection, they can try that. Americans won't take well to that kind of interference.


Yeah, Americans don't give a damn about tariffs on normal American goods due to Trump's trade policies, but putting sanctions on a "billionaire"'s businesses would be going TOO FAR for the middle class of America. MAGAAAAAAA


It doesn't hurt them because they aren't being hit with tariffs, but it does insult them by trying to dictate their choice of president. Heavy on the insults, light on the actual pressure. A perfect recipe for digging in heels.
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TopicPolitics Containment Topic 180: The Summit All Fears
red sox 777
06/12/18 7:39:43 PM
#46
Icehawk posted...
I know the NK thing is HOT, but we have an "agreement" on both sides that means absolutely nothing, so I don't think it warrants tons of conversation, outside of several embarrassing Trump moments the last 24 hours. There is nothing on paper, and NK is not serious about this. Nothing serious is going to come from a meeting between the two top leaders, "planned" out like a month in advance, and a president who thinks attitude is all that matters. It's all just a photo op.

I'm more interested in what will actually matter, trade wars that are inbound.

A. Do you think there are enough republicans with balls to actually get legislation through that stops trump's tariffs? (No)

B. Do you agree with this article, that the best way to handle trump would be to sanction his own businesses instead of the country at large? I think it makes sense, though I imagine the politics in the home countries would be bad, as it wouldn't be a strong enough response in terms of pure dollars..

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/6/5/17422492/sanction-trump-organization


If they want to guarantee Trump and the Republicans win reelection, they can try that. Americans won't take well to that kind of interference.
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TopicPolitics Containment Topic 180: The Summit All Fears
red sox 777
06/12/18 7:37:12 PM
#44
Corrik posted...
Not_an_Owl posted...
Corrik posted...
I dunno about pulling all our troops out of South Korea, but if South Korea doesn't have a threat it wouldn't be the worst thing to reduce presence.

Technically South Korea is under threat until there's a peace treaty (or even unification but who the hell knows if or when that's going to happen). Even without nukes the North has enough conventional weapons to reduce Seoul to rubble. Pulling U.S. troops out of the peninsula entirely would be an enormous concession and I wouldn't even contemplate it without some equally large concession on North Korea's part.

Well, I can't imagine we would ever remove troops unless they had denuclearized and a treaty was signed with a normalization of relations.

We are kind of past the day when we need to be there for an action with the information age upon us. A base would be good to keep there, but I do not know if we need 7000 troops posted there at all times.


They're there as a sort of absolute guarantee that the US will defend South Korea from invasion. Hopefully that won't be necessary in the future but we aren't there yet.
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TopicPolitics Containment Topic 180: The Summit All Fears
red sox 777
06/12/18 7:32:06 PM
#41
ChaosTonyV4 posted...
red sox 777 posted...
It doesn't change the reality that NK would lose a war, badly.


Of course they would, but they would also kill millions of South Korean civilians in the process.


That would happen whether or not we held military exercises. As a deterrent it adds very little value.
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TopicPolitics Containment Topic 180: The Summit All Fears
red sox 777
06/12/18 5:43:24 PM
#34
The military exercises themselves can be easily restarted. That's not a big concession. It doesn't change the reality that NK would lose a war, badly.

If we gave them lots of cash before they disarmed, that would be possibly overly trusting. Because we can't get it back if they don't hold up their end of the deal.
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TopicPolitics Containment Topic 180: The Summit All Fears
red sox 777
06/12/18 2:50:24 PM
#30
And I guess, when it comes time to hand over the nukes, it'll be to China or Russia. Dems are going to throw a fit if it's Russia.
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TopicPolitics Containment Topic 180: The Summit All Fears
red sox 777
06/12/18 2:45:30 PM
#29
Peace___Frog posted...
red sox 777 posted...
What we're getting from the NK deal is they get rid of their nuclear weapons. Iran doesn't have any, so they don't have anything so valuable to give us.

Are you actually that naive or what


Read my posts. I compared it to the Anglo-German friendship agreement of 1938. They haven't actually handed over any nukes yet. But if they do, then that would be a bargain well struck.
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TopicPolitics Containment Topic 180: The Summit All Fears
red sox 777
06/12/18 2:32:30 PM
#27
Trump's comments about the hotels is absolutely correct, though. Development of North Korea is the long term guarantee of any peace deal, for both sides. They don't trust us, for good reason, and we don't trust them, for good reason. But if in 15 years Pyongyang resembles Seoul or Singapore, no one is going to want to go back.
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TopicPolitics Containment Topic 180: The Summit All Fears
red sox 777
06/12/18 2:28:29 PM
#26
Espeon posted...
red sox 777 posted...
Espeon posted...
I should clarify:

What is the difference between what Trump claimed was wrong with the Iran deal, and what the NK deal actually IS? Because the claim was that the U.S. got nothing from the Iran deal and gave up a lot...yet Im seeing nothing to show that that description doesnt apply to the NK deal.


What we're getting from the NK deal is they get rid of their nuclear weapons. Iran doesn't have any, so they don't have anything so valuable to give us.


You mean the nuclear weapons they cant use because they blew up their only testing facility? Again, it seems to me like America gave up a lot in exchange for nothing, whereas the Iran deal was more balanced.


They already finished testing. They have the weapons built already. And even if their delivery technology is unreliable, that's not a chance we want to take.
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TopicPolitics Containment Topic 180: The Summit All Fears
red sox 777
06/12/18 2:21:14 PM
#24
Espeon posted...
I should clarify:

What is the difference between what Trump claimed was wrong with the Iran deal, and what the NK deal actually IS? Because the claim was that the U.S. got nothing from the Iran deal and gave up a lot...yet Im seeing nothing to show that that description doesnt apply to the NK deal.


What we're getting from the NK deal is they get rid of their nuclear weapons. Iran doesn't have any, so they don't have anything so valuable to give us.
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TopicPolitics Containment Topic 180: The Summit All Fears
red sox 777
06/12/18 2:19:46 PM
#23
YeahNot_an_Owl posted...
Espeon posted...
Could someone please explain the difference, if any, between the agreement with NK and the deal Trump reneged on with Iran?

The Iran deal actually had specifics and details.


Yeah, I can't help but notice the similarity between this deal and the Anglo-German friendship agreement Chamberlain and Hitler signed in 1938. No details, driven heavily by a claimed personal trust between the leaders, big promises of peace.
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TopicPolitics Containment Topic 180: The Summit All Fears
red sox 777
06/12/18 2:17:22 PM
#21
Jakyl25 posted...
neonreaper posted...
I do like Trump's appeal about the hotels, actually. It's along the lines of his talk-past-the-deal tactic.


The problem is that theyll be Trump hotels


I'm fine with 100 new Trump hotels in NK if it gets them to open up the country.

By the way, I heard that real estate prices in Dandong, China (on the NK border) are up 1000% this year, even before the Summit yesterday. There's a ton of business opportunity here if NK does decide to open for business.
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TopicPolitics Containment Topic 180: The Summit All Fears
red sox 777
06/12/18 2:12:15 PM
#19
Espeon posted...
Could someone please explain the difference, if any, between the agreement with NK and the deal Trump reneged on with Iran?


NK has nuclear weapons. Iran does not. NK therefore has a better bargaining position.
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TopicPolitics Containment Topic 179: My Recollection of Flair Existing Keeps Changing
red sox 777
06/11/18 2:43:57 PM
#499
There's nothing stopping the Supreme Court or lower courts from striking down worse laws.
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TopicPolitics Containment Topic 179: My Recollection of Flair Existing Keeps Changing
red sox 777
06/11/18 2:34:31 PM
#496
charmander6000 posted...
Peace___Frog posted...
Oh by the way, net neutrality in the US ended today, and the supreme court ruled 5-4 that voter purges due to inactivity are ok.

Big wins for the trump team. Gotta vote in November, folks.


How long do they have to wait before they can purge? In Canada you are removed after some time of inactivity, mostly to remove the dead and people who move and fail to report the change.

Of course in Canada we have same day registration so it isn't a big deal outside of it taking ~10 minutes longer to vote.


In Ohio, 6 years of nonvoting and not answering warning postcards.
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TopicPolitics Containment Topic 179: My Recollection of Flair Existing Keeps Changing
red sox 777
06/10/18 2:39:13 PM
#466
Mr Lasastryke posted...
red sox 777 posted...
Because it's not credible.


and trump WAS credible, even though he took both sides on like 99% of the issues?


Trump is like a used car salesman. He doesn't expect you to believe him.
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TopicPolitics Containment Topic 179: My Recollection of Flair Existing Keeps Changing
red sox 777
06/10/18 1:37:42 PM
#454
And, this is maybe why people hate her - she pairs her tendency to support whatever the majority supports with vicious condemnations of the minority, even for holding the same positions she held at another point in time (when it was more popular).

In the 90s, when Americans wanted to be tough on crime, she called black kids "super predators" with no empathy who needed to be "brought to heel." A wave of bad, "tough" crime laws were indeed passed, by her husband and a bunch of states, which actually ruined people's lives on the supposition that they were "super predators." Now, the winds of public opinion have changed. And if you said something 10% as harsh as what Hillary said, she would support you being branded as a racist, and having your business and livelihood slandered and destroyed.

For many years, Hillary opposed gay marriage. She used her position and bully pulpit to deny recognition and legal rights to gay people. Then public opinion changed, and now anyone who held her old positions is to be condemned as a bigot. Hillary voted for Iraq (supposedly believing unsupported lies from Bush), and now she says it was a mistake. It wasn't a mistake, it was simply popular at the time.
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TopicPolitics Containment Topic 179: My Recollection of Flair Existing Keeps Changing
red sox 777
06/10/18 1:25:53 PM
#452
Mr Lasastryke posted...
red sox 777 posted...
When Americans changed their positions on issues, she changed too.


why did she lose, then? if she agreed with the majority of americans on the issues she probably would have won.


Because it's not credible. The simplest explanation is she says publicly whatever she thinks is popular.

And since she does speak privately in paid speeches, and her public positions are not credible, people tend to think her actual positions are what she says privately.
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TopicPolitics Containment Topic 179: My Recollection of Flair Existing Keeps Changing
red sox 777
06/10/18 1:02:46 PM
#443
Jakyl25 posted...
Corrik posted...
Telling people one thing then in her paid speechs saying the opposite? I believe in one speechs she even said that she can't say certain things to the typical voter that she can here.


How is that different than literally anyone else?


Most candidates aren't even giving paid speeches.
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TopicPolitics Containment Topic 179: My Recollection of Flair Existing Keeps Changing
red sox 777
06/10/18 12:57:28 PM
#441
She defended her saying different things in private speeches and public ones by saying she got it from Abe Lincoln. Trump pounced all over that weak answer.
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TopicPolitics Containment Topic 179: My Recollection of Flair Existing Keeps Changing
red sox 777
06/10/18 12:46:42 PM
#437
She has held the same position as the majority of Americans on every single issue for decades. When Americans changed their positions on issues, she changed too. This is not credible.
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TopicPolitics Containment Topic 179: My Recollection of Flair Existing Keeps Changing
red sox 777
06/10/18 10:48:24 AM
#423
Also, I will point out that Britain issued a series of domestic bonds during World War I which bore interest-only payments until such time as Britain wanted to finish off the loans. They've been making interest payments on those for the last 100 years, without paying the principal. So it's not like Britain isn't paying any WWI debts - just not the ones owed to the US.
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TopicPolitics Containment Topic 179: My Recollection of Flair Existing Keeps Changing
red sox 777
06/10/18 10:37:45 AM
#420
Mr Lasastryke posted...
red sox 777 posted...
Someone really should bring this up with the president. I think he probably doesn't know that we are owed somewhere north of $1 trillion from our "allies" after 86 years of compounded interest. Finland was the only country that repaid its WWI debt to the US.


you're fine with the continent i live in going bankrupt?

also, why did you put "allies" in quotation marks? you see europe as an enemy of the US?


I mean in the sense of, if they are our friends, why are they not paying their debt for 86 years? And it's mostly Britain and France - remember that the Central Powers and countries occupied by them were not really borrowing from the US. And, the moratorium was put in place in the 30s until Germany finished paying its war reparations, which it has now! Time for Britain and France to pay up, and it won't bankrupt them.
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TopicPolitics Containment Topic 179: My Recollection of Flair Existing Keeps Changing
red sox 777
06/10/18 10:32:21 AM
#419
Mr Lasastryke posted...
red sox 777 posted...
Or the people of Crimea?


saying "the people of crimea" wanted crimea to get back to russia is pretty misleading (and makes it sound like you just take vlado's bullshit at face value). plenty of people of crimea didn't want this at all (hence the conflicts in the region).


If you don't trust the referendum on rejoining Russia, look at the last Ukrainian presidential election. Ukraine was far more polarized than the US.
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TopicPolitics Containment Topic 179: My Recollection of Flair Existing Keeps Changing
red sox 777
06/10/18 3:14:17 AM
#413
Kenri posted...
red sox 777 posted...
Why does Nikita Khruschev's will matter more than Vladimir Putin's? Or the people of Crimea?

this might be the first post you've ever made that implies popular will should actually be respected lol


On second thought Putin didn't give Crimea an electoral college before conducting the referendum. Guess it isn't valid after all.
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TopicPolitics Containment Topic 179: My Recollection of Flair Existing Keeps Changing
red sox 777
06/10/18 2:15:03 AM
#410
Seriously though, why shouldn't we demand payment for the WWI debt? Were not contracts agreed? Wasn't American money sent to these European countries? Did they not receive the money? Did they not use the money to help them win the war? Didn't they receive the benefit of the bargain? Haven't we honored all of our obligations to them? Didn't we provide more assistance during and after WWII, as a gift with nothing demanded in return? Haven't we paid for their defense from the Soviet Union/Russia for the last 70 years, again, receiving nothing in return?

Why shouldn't we get back what we lent?
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TopicPolitics Containment Topic 179: My Recollection of Flair Existing Keeps Changing
red sox 777
06/10/18 1:56:37 AM
#406
Someone really should bring this up with the president. I think he probably doesn't know that we are owed somewhere north of $1 trillion from our "allies" after 86 years of compounded interest. Finland was the only country that repaid its WWI debt to the US.
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TopicPolitics Containment Topic 179: My Recollection of Flair Existing Keeps Changing
red sox 777
06/10/18 1:50:52 AM
#405
If not for the United States, Great Britain and France would have lost both world wars to Germany. They could at least do us the courtesy of repaying the money they borrowed.
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TopicPolitics Containment Topic 179: My Recollection of Flair Existing Keeps Changing
red sox 777
06/10/18 1:46:57 AM
#403
NFUN posted...
red sox 777 posted...
Crimea belongs to Russia. Just because a certain USSR leader was Ukrainian and decided to give it to Ukraine when he was in power and there was no sign the USSR would end does not make it Ukrainian.

it literally does


Why does Nikita Khruschev's will matter more than Vladimir Putin's? Or the people of Crimea?
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TopicPolitics Containment Topic 179: My Recollection of Flair Existing Keeps Changing
red sox 777
06/10/18 1:46:18 AM
#402
I'm not sure if Trump is aware of the WWI debt owed by many countries to the US. As of 1932, when most countries stopped paying, the debt owed by Great Britain and France alone was about $9 billion. At 5% interest per year since then, that comes out to about $600 billion now. I think Trump should demand payment.
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TopicPolitics Containment Topic 179: My Recollection of Flair Existing Keeps Changing
red sox 777
06/10/18 1:33:26 AM
#400
Crimea belongs to Russia. Just because a certain USSR leader was Ukrainian and decided to give it to Ukraine when he was in power and there was no sign the USSR would end does not make it Ukrainian.
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TopicPolitics Containment Topic 179: My Recollection of Flair Existing Keeps Changing
red sox 777
06/09/18 11:46:22 AM
#380
They don't need outrageous proposals, but they do need interesting ones. My tax plan on the last page would save someone earning 50k about $100 a month beyond Trump's plan (basically doubling their tax cut). Add in a few more proposals and they would have a platform.
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TopicPolitics Containment Topic 179: My Recollection of Flair Existing Keeps Changing
red sox 777
06/09/18 11:19:15 AM
#378
That is the news he created! The idea that we can build a wall. Dems ought to be able to make headlines with their policy proposals too.
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TopicPolitics Containment Topic 179: My Recollection of Flair Existing Keeps Changing
red sox 777
06/09/18 11:11:36 AM
#376
They have a midterm election coming up. They are running for a ton of seats. I mean, I don't fault them for not having quite Trump's skill for creating news out of nothing, but still, they are a major political party, they should be halfway decent at this.
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TopicPolitics Containment Topic 179: My Recollection of Flair Existing Keeps Changing
red sox 777
06/09/18 10:40:36 AM
#374
Ashethan posted...
red sox 777 posted...
The people who believe that are gonna vote Republican no matter what. They're not the people you're trying to win over.


That's just it though. Republicans only really appeal to those people. They'll throw the lower class a few scraps to try to make them happy. But a lot of those lower class people are the ones who'll instantly buy that the rich are the job creators and that one day they'll be rich.


If you really think there are enough people in America in 2018 who believe in trickle down economics to get Republicans elected.....well it does explain why Hillary didn't even try to win whole swaths of voters.
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TopicPolitics Containment Topic 179: My Recollection of Flair Existing Keeps Changing
red sox 777
06/09/18 10:37:32 AM
#372
Mr Lasastryke posted...
red sox 777 posted...
Yes, it applies more to politicians, but I wouldn't say exclusively to them. You can respond to the tweets, but it hurts your cause if you take them at face value.


it depends. we can make fun of trump's tweets on this board all we want - that doesn't affect anything. maybe if a democrat celebrity responds to the tweets it does hurt the cause, though.


It does actually. Maybe not so much on this board, but definitely on platforms like Facebook. It's not the making fun of Trump in itself that costs votes, it's where people start calling his supporters deplorables, racists, sexists, etc. Trump is very good at being inflammatory, but liberals redirect the fire onto swing voters - falling right into the trap.
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TopicPolitics Containment Topic 179: My Recollection of Flair Existing Keeps Changing
red sox 777
06/09/18 10:34:24 AM
#371
Mr Lasastryke posted...
red sox 777 posted...
Democrats should focus on creating news themselves.


i think it's kind of unfair to act like democrats have the same platform as trump, though. if trump farts it automatically makes headlines everywhere. it's not nearly as easy for dems to "create news" as it is for trump.


Trump literally created news by tweeting, before he was president. Democrats may not enjoy as large a platform as President Trump now, but they have a bigger one than candidate Trump.

I'm not sure Democrats can change without a change in leadership though.....and maybe major institutional change, not just rotating out the people at the top for similar ones.
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TopicPolitics Containment Topic 179: My Recollection of Flair Existing Keeps Changing
red sox 777
06/09/18 10:31:12 AM
#369
Ashethan posted...
red sox 777 posted...
Republicans can't vote against my plan there without openly expressing their support for the top 1%. It's strictly equal or better than the Republican plan for everyone else


LOL That you actually believe this.

"The 1% ARE THE JOB CREATORS! They should get the biggest cut because that's where the jobs are. If you cut their taxes, they'll raise wages for everyone (even though they never have)"


The people who believe that are gonna vote Republican no matter what. They're not the people you're trying to win over.
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TopicPolitics Containment Topic 179: My Recollection of Flair Existing Keeps Changing
red sox 777
06/09/18 10:29:52 AM
#367
Mr Lasastryke posted...
red sox 777 posted...
But reacting to presidential trolling has consequences if it defines your campaign.


ok, you're just now specifying that you think democratic politicians reacting to trump's trolling is bad (rather than people who dislike trump in general).

that's a far better position than what i initially thought you were arguing. but like i said, i'm not sure how realistic that is as trump's trolling tweets ARE news, for better or worse. everyone who appears in the media talks about them and is expected to have an opinion on them. what do you suggest - should democrats just say "no comment" every time a pundit brings up those tweets in an interview? i think that would just lead to their opponents saying they're not following the news at all or something.


Yes, it applies more to politicians, but I wouldn't say exclusively to them. You can respond to the tweets, but it hurts your cause if you take them at face value.
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TopicPolitics Containment Topic 179: My Recollection of Flair Existing Keeps Changing
red sox 777
06/09/18 10:09:19 AM
#363
Republicans can't vote against my plan there without openly expressing their support for the top 1%. It's strictly equal or better than the Republican plan for everyone else. Trump can't veto that if it passes without breaking campaign promises to cut taxes for the working class (notice his tax cuts cut them maybe 1/3 of what he promised during the campaign, and the plan I outlined there would get us closer to the campaign proposal).

But Democrats have not even tried to make a play for working class votes on taxes. Instead, they just railed against Trump, saying his deal for an 80/20 split for the tax benefits, with the 80 going to the top 1%, and 20% going to the working class, was a bad deal. Maybe it wasn't a great deal, but it was a lot better than what the Democrats were offering, which was and is nothing. Oh, and Democrats also called some of their potential voters "deplorables."
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red sox 777
06/09/18 10:00:45 AM
#362
Mr Lasastryke posted...
red sox 777 posted...
But reacting to presidential trolling has consequences if it defines your campaign.


ok, you're just now specifying that you think democratic politicians reacting to trump's trolling is bad (rather than people in general).

that's a far better position than what i initially thought you were arguing. but like i said, i'm not sure how realistic that is as trump's trolling tweets ARE news, for better or worse. everyone who appears in the media talks about them and is expected to have an opinion on them. what do you suggest - should democrats just say "no comment" every time a pundit brings up those tweets in an interview? i think that would just lead to their opponents saying they're not following the news at all or something.


Democrats should focus on creating news themselves. How about a concrete policy proposal or two? They don't like the tax cuts because it gives away too much to the top 1% right? How about making a counteroffer to the voters, something that gives the working class bigger tax cuts by giving the top 1% less? Maybe something like:

Standard deduction $12,000
$0 - 10,000 - 5%
$10,000 - $40,000 - 10%
$40,000 - $80,000 - 20%
$80,000 - $150,000 - 24%
$150,000 - $200,000 - 32%
$200,000 - $500,000 - 35%
Marginal rate - 40%

This undercuts the Republican plan for the working class, keeps the same rates for the upper middle class, and puts in a higher tax on the rich. I came up with this in 5 minutes. If Democrats had put forward proposals like this before the 2016 election, they wouldn't be in the position they're in now, but it's not too late to start.
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red sox 777
06/09/18 9:51:37 AM
#360
Ashethan posted...
red sox 777 posted...
Precisely. They didn't need to work with Republicans and they shouldn't have. They held all the cards and failed to press their advantage.


Because they wanted to keep bipartisanship alive. Crazy idea, I know.


The voters didn't want bipartisanship in 2008. If they did they would have elected more Republicans to Congress. The Democrats failed to deliver after being given a mandate and were not given a second chance at one-party rule after 2010.
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red sox 777
06/09/18 9:49:26 AM
#359
Mr Lasastryke posted...
red sox 777 posted...
There's nothing to be gained by attacking the trolling tweets.


so if the leader of a country is a dictator, nobody should stand up to them because there's nothing to be gained from it. great morals you have there.


There are other ways of standing up. In republics, you can win the next election. You should focus on the ways that are effective, not the ways that actively empower the person you are purporting to stand up to.
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red sox 777
06/09/18 9:46:52 AM
#356
Reacting to message board trolling is actually much better than reacting to presidential trolling. You don't really lose out by reacting to message board trolling, because it's just a message board. If it makes you happier to respond, fine. But reacting to presidential trolling has consequences if it defines your campaign.

And before people argue that the GOP did it to Obama, let me point out that 1) Obama rarely trolled, and 2) Obama won reelection.
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red sox 777
06/09/18 9:41:40 AM
#351
Mr Lasastryke posted...
red sox 777 posted...
The question now, is, do you engage Trump's trolling or not - you can't normalize what is already normal, but you can feed the troll by engaging him - and either liberals don't get this or they just can't help themselves. It's like seeing Trump tweets drives them mad.


you think liberals should ignore tweets by the president of the united states? if anything, THAT would be abnormal.

worth noting that trump's fans aren't ignoring the tweets either. they just praise them instead of criticizing them.

plus i always hate this "feed the troll" bullshit. when someone is trolling the troll should be attacked, not the people engaging the troll. ESPECIALLY when the troll in question is the fucking president. if someone acts like an asshole, there's absolutely nothing wrong with pointing out that they're being an asshole.


These tweets? Yeah. This isn't a moral issue. There's nothing to be gained by attacking the trolling tweets. Meanwhile, Democrats still don't have a platform. Trump, for all his trolling, still found time to built and sell a platform (build the wall, cut taxes, travel ban, trade renegotiation, new infrastructure, etc.).
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red sox 777
06/09/18 9:37:48 AM
#349
Ashethan posted...
red sox 777 posted...
They have way way more than Republicans had in 2009-2010. They have 49 seats in the Senate. They have John McCain who is possibly willing to side with them on stuff. But yes, it may be past the point where bluffing is possible - since Republicans aren't as dumb as the 2009-10 Democrats. In which case, they should start folding and trying to win the next election.


The 2009-2010 democrats were only dumb for trying to work with Republicans. Who could have predicted that Republicans would kill bipartisanship and then skull fuck its corpse?


Precisely. They didn't need to work with Republicans and they shouldn't have. They held all the cards and failed to press their advantage.
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red sox 777
06/09/18 9:25:31 AM
#345
And by folding, I mean folding before you've invested a lot of political capital. Hyping up an issue as critically important and then folding under pressure makes you look weak. Better to recognize from the outset that an issue is unwinnable now and focus on the election.
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red sox 777
06/09/18 9:23:38 AM
#344
Mr Lasastryke posted...
red sox 777 posted...
If you have no cards you can fold, or you can bluff. What you want to avoid is showing your cards. Democrats are like a poker player that always raises the same amount, no matter what cards they have and no matter what their opponent is doing.


uh, everyone (including trump) knows democrats have nothing. you think they can gain something by bluffing?


They have way way more than Republicans had in 2009-2010. They have 49 seats in the Senate. They have John McCain who is possibly willing to side with them on stuff. But yes, it may be past the point where bluffing is possible - since Republicans aren't as dumb as the 2009-10 Democrats. In which case, they should start folding and trying to win the next election.
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red sox 777
06/09/18 9:15:17 AM
#341
Kenri posted...
red sox 777 posted...
I think it's because liberals hold a view of history that simply cannot comprehend the idea of going backwards. They can't believe it is actually happening. They can't believe that people want it to happen. They don't understand that it is absolutely normal. And they refuse to adapt to reality.

This is the most baffling post you've ever made. Have you ever even spoken to a liberal?


Yes, I hear a lot of talk about not wanting to "normalize" Trump. That betrays a complete misunderstanding of the situation. Trump is already normal. He was elected as president of the United States. The question now, is, do you engage Trump's trolling or not - you can't normalize what is already normal, but you can feed the troll by engaging him - and either liberals don't get this or they just can't help themselves. It's like seeing Trump tweets drives them mad.
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