Lurker > red sox 777

And you still don't get it. It doesn't matter so much if you offend conservatives. They were always going to vote against you. It matters if you offend swing voters, the people who choose our government.
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Kenri posted...

red sox 777 posted...

"This is why you lost." I would think it's extremely clear. Explaining why liberals lost the election.

We already know we lost because of easily threatened conservatives who view bigotry as simple disagreement.

That reason doesn't give you anything you can do to win an election. Mine does.
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But maybe this isn't something American liberals are going to get anytime soon. After all, accounts are that Bill Clinton, probably the most gifted modern Democratic politician, was actively warning the Hillary campaign, and was also ignored. If they won't listen to Bill I don't know who they will listen to.
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Kenri posted...

red sox 777 posted...

I disagree, but in any case, fault is irrelevant. This is a description of why liberals lost, not a moral judgment.

If it's not about fault then what exactly is your point?

"This is why you lost." I would think it's extremely clear. Explaining why liberals lost the election.
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Kenri posted...

red sox 777 posted...

TIWYL is about Democrats failing to try to win votes. It's about actions Democrats control that influence voters, not about why Trump voters believe they voted. It operates mostly on a subconscious level and it mostly is not about spite.

Example. You and I are having dinner. We are friends and you assume I must be a liberal since all your friends are liberals. So you start condemning another person who happens to be my friend, who you don't know I am friendly with, calling him bigoted. I don't think that person is bigoted at all. I, very naturally, feel threatened, because what I see is you understanding disagreement with you to be equivalent to bigotry. Months later, this will have a subconscious effect on how I vote.

You are not a good friend or a rational actor in this hypothetical and the fault of that is on you, not liberals.

I disagree, but in any case, fault is irrelevant. This is a description of why liberals lost, not a moral judgment.
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Now, you may ask, why am I so sensitive? I'm not more sensitive than the average person, but I am a swing voter, so I am vastly more likely to change my vote based on my sensitivity. That's the point that Democrats missed. They did a poor job of identifying the swing voters in 2016.
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

red sox 777 posted...

No, but your post seemed to treat Ulti, Corrik, SephG and me as basically the same person.

how on earth did you get this from my post?

Okay, I reread your post. I think the confusion stems from a misunderstanding of what This Is Why You Lost means, or how I use it at least.

TIWYL is about Democrats failing to try to win votes. It's about actions Democrats control that influence voters, not about why Trump voters believe they voted. It operates mostly on a subconscious level and it mostly is not about spite.

Example. You and I are having dinner. We are friends and you assume I must be a liberal since all your friends are liberals. So you start condemning another person who happens to be my friend, who you don't know I am friendly with, calling him bigoted. I don't think that person is bigoted at all. I, very naturally, feel threatened, because what I see is you understanding disagreement with you to be equivalent to bigotry. Months later, this will have a subconscious effect on how I vote.
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

red sox 777 posted...

I certainly didn't vote for Trump to make liberals salty.

i didn't say you did. i know you wrote in bernie.

No, but your post seemed to treat Ulti, Corrik, SephG and me as basically the same person. You shouldn't really argue that person A said he voted out of spite, and he used #TIWYL, so everyone else who used it must have voted for the same reason.
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Jakyl25 posted...

kevwaffles posted...

So, we wanna talk about the 25% tariffs on Chinese goods that came out of nowhere today despite Mnuchin saying the trade war was "on hold". Or how the Dow has dropped over 420 points?

Any idea why?

Probably to establish Trump as unpredictable to improve his bargaining power.
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Lasa, you're kind of mixing people together. I certainly didn't vote for Trump to make liberals salty. I didn't even vote for Trump at all, but if I had, there would have been loads of reasons that would come before that one. I'm quite sure SephG had substantive reasons for his vote too.

Also, you didn't vote for Hillary and don't live in America, so I rather think you didn't lose.
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Dancedreamer posted...

I mean why do you get to be upset about something, but other people don't? Just because YOU don't view it as important.

(THIS is a perfect example of privilege by the way.)

The privilege of having a majority of the voters in the swing states. Democrats thought this was their privilege before the election, but they were wrong. They bet the farm on it, and they lost.

It's not a moral question, it's one of electoral results.
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I was going to post that I've seen lots of examples of conservatives and especially religious people being insulted on this board, but I don't archive these topic and didn't remember any concrete examples. But Kenri just gave us one, so I guess, the witness's admission in open court will obviate the need for evidence?
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xp1337 posted...

red sox 777 posted...

My question was rhetorical.

I am aware. It's precisely why I answered it. You tried to sneak in what I found to be a false premise under the cover of a rhetorical question.

I do not agree that your answer is satisfactory, for the reasons I stated.

Weird, because you never actually stated that. In fact, I took it as you implicitly agreeing it was indeed a solution. What I saw was you saying was that you believed people would not successfully arrive at that answer. That's a wholly different issue and is why I accused you of shifting the goalposts of this argument.

And sure, privilege is not inherently an attack, but it has been used as an attack so much in the past few years that by now, people get defensive from even hearing the word.

Again. This is a separate issue - that of successfully, and effectively, convincing people of a position. Were this the only discussion in play, I'd be happy to have that conversation. But you're conflating this more general argument with the more specific argument that bringing up privilege is something that is unanswerable. And in doing so you're trying to force people to engage you in a setting where that specific premise has been accepted.

I don't feel like playing that game.

I'm trying to make the general point, yeah. My language might not have been terribly precise but I really wasn't discussing the subject of whether privilege is unanswerable. If you think my language should have included more qualifiers, that's fine.
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An analogy is "this is why you lost." I thought this phrase was a gem, five words that explained so much about the current state of politics in the US. Five words that if Democrats thought about, honestly, introspectively, would unlock the key to them winning future elections.

But from I could see, me and others posting it here generated zero introspection whatsoever. It simply doesn't make sense to liberals, even if to SephyG and me it encapsulates books worth of knowledge into a single sentence. And it won't make sense to liberals unless they go through introspection, which they won't do merely because of me repeating an insulting-sounding statement at them over and over. So I stopped posting it.
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Kenri posted...

Corrik posted...

I didn't say I saw it here. I definitely saw it here or on Reset though.

Stop saying "you" if you don't mean us, you absolute dingus.

Um......are you trying to prove his point?
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xp1337 posted...

red sox 777 posted...

xp1337 posted...

red sox 777 posted...

how can the conversation continue?

introspection

People usually don't respond to attacks with introspection. If that's your goal, just explain what it is you want them to understand without saying that you think they can't do it. If you tell me there's no way I can understand, I'm probably not going to try to.

You're moving the goalposts. You asked how the conversation could continue and then declared it could not. I am contesting that and provided an answer I believe in.

You can try again without trying to work in faulty premises (That "privilege" is an attack) if you like.

My question was rhetorical. I do not agree that your answer is satisfactory, for the reasons I stated.

And sure, privilege is not inherently an attack, but it has been used as an attack so much in the past few years that by now, people get defensive from even hearing the word.
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xp1337 posted...

red sox 777 posted...

how can the conversation continue?

introspection

People usually don't respond to attacks with introspection. If that's your goal, just explain what it is you want them to understand without saying that you think they can't do it. If you tell me there's no way I can understand, I'm probably not going to try to.
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Privilege isn't an accusation, but it does shut down a conversation. If your argument is "your privilege blinds you," how can the conversation continue? It won't, and you probably won't get that person's vote either.
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Kenri posted...

What's an example of an accusation from the left that doesn't have to do with performance or dishonesty?

Racism. Bigotry. Sexism. Privilege.
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

red sox 777 posted...

Let's look at Trump's criticisms of people:

Crooked Hillary
Little Marco
Lyin Ted
Failing New York Times
Low Energy Jeb
Etc.

All of them relate to either performance, or dishonesty.

you conveniently left out "crazy bernie" and "dumb as a rock mika."

Those are the least moral of the lot.
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Dancedreamer posted...

I've seen conservatives regularly call liberals MS-13 supporters, baby killers, and said Hillary Clinton worshiped Satan and did some soul cooking and ran an underground pedophile ring from a pizza place.

Do you know anyone who believes that pizza place stuff?
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Jakyl25 posted...

red sox 777 posted...

But Corrik is right, they generally don't attack the moral character of their opponents.

Remind me who is President again?

Let's look at Trump's criticisms of people:

Crooked Hillary
Little Marco
Lyin Ted
Failing New York Times
Low Energy Jeb
Etc.

All of them relate to either performance, or dishonesty. Performance is obviously amoral, and Trump has made it pretty clear that he doesn't consider dishonesty to be a moral failure. And most people would not rank it up there with murder or bigotry.
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I mean, Republicans aren't exactly paragons of virtuous civic discourse either. But Corrik is right, they generally don't attack the moral character of their opponents.

And notice that the religious right used to do that, with the whole "moral majority" stuff. After 30 years of this, and achieving basically none of their goals, they appear to have given up on the strategy.
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And I would also say, I think objectively, there's a huge difference between calling someone dumb and a Nazi. Lots of people are dumb. The Nazis killed millions of people. On purpose. Because they hated those people. These things are not in the same stadium.

And I hear a lot of liberals saying they are afraid of "normalizing" speech they dislike. Nothing normalizes stuff as much as comparing everything under the sun you disagree to the worst thing in the world. If you compare bakers of wedding cakes to Nazis, at best, you will be tuned out. At worst, you will normalize Nazis - you will make people associate that word with refusing to bake a cake rather than with mass murder.
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

red sox 777 posted...

Plus I'd rather be called an SJW than a Nazi.

i'm not really interested in splitting hairs on what the "worse insult" is. yes, i agree that being called a nazi is worse than being called an SJW, but they're both insults.

if you're saying "you're wrong about social issues," you're respectfully disagreeing with me. if you're saying "you're a social justice warrior" you're basically calling me a dumbass. i take it as a harsh insult.

I don't take SJW to be a huge insult I guess. I would prefer to be called a bleeding heart liberal than "severely conservative" or whatever would be its opposite.
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

red sox 777 posted...

But the difference is Republicans don't act this way to people they know, only people they don't.

i've been called both of those things tons of times by republicans on this board so that's not really true.

if you mean "know" as in "know personally" you're still wrong, as i've been called these things (or variations thereon) by people i know in real life too (though then the number of times i've been called these things greatly diminishes, obviously).

I thought you lived in the Netherlands? I'm pretty surprised you've been called such things by American Republicans.
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Plus I'd rather be called an SJW than a Nazi. SJW, snowflake, etc. do not really express moral disapproval any more than a criticism like "low energy." The GOP had that debate where all but one of the candidates agreed that Obama had good intentions but was just in over his head. Donald Trump even managed to say something good about Hillary Clinton at the end of a debate (that she was a fighter who never quit) while all she could think of to say that was positive about him was that his family was nice.
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

red sox 777 posted...

And Republicans are pretty darn inclusive of ideas.

constantly calling people you disagree with "SJWs" and "bleeding heart liberals" is your idea of being inclusive?

I would take "bleeding heart liberal" as a badge of honor, myself. But the difference is Republicans don't act this way to people they know, only people they don't. If my friend or acquaintance acts like SJWs do, I won't think of him as an SJW, but as someone who cares deeply about civil rights. And you only really influence the people you know.
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

red sox 777 posted...

In practice, stop ostracizing people who don't share all your beliefs, even the ones that are really important to you.

i don't see why that would be a preferable strategy. why would you "tolerate" ideas to get more votes if you have gigantic moral issues with these ideas? plus, the republicans aren't being all that inclusive to people with ideas they disagree with either.

If you don't tolerate people who hold ideas you dislike and you lose the election, you won't be in a position to do anything to help your cause. Whereas if you won, you could. I didn't say you had to agree with the ideas, merely tolerate the people who hold them.

And Republicans are pretty darn inclusive of ideas. It doesn't matter what views you hold, as long as you vote R.

If you want to push your agenda as far as you can, to the utmost limit, you could be intolerant of all who oppose you....but you had better be sure you win the election then. If you lose after taking that attitude, you may find yourself in your worst nightmares.
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

red sox 777 posted...

The Democratic Party mainly needs to be more inclusive of people with different beliefs.

what does this mean?

In practice, stop ostracizing people who don't share all your beliefs, even the ones that are really important to you. You can think someone who supports defunding Planned Parenthood is bad, but if you refuse to associate with them, guess what, you have virtually no chance of winning their vote. And you may lose the votes of their friends.
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Kenri posted...

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/05/23/opinion/international-world/centrists-democracy.html

This is the kind of thing I think about anytime someone talks about the Democratic party needing to move towards the center lol

That's really interesting. I guess maybe more centrists feel authoritarian government is likely to favor them, since they are in the center?

The Democratic Party mainly needs to be more inclusive of people with different beliefs. Tolerance of an idea, agreement with it, and fighting for it are 3 completely different things, and the Dems should stop conflating them.
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5 faithless electors decline to vote for Hillary, causing her total to drop to 269. The House elects Donald Trump as president over enormous protests across the country.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Corrik posted...

I am not sure Trump was aware of that

Thats not good! IMO a President should be aware of what his subordinates are saying on his behalf to the press. Otherwise whats the point of even having White House press conferences?

I'm honestly kind of surprised we still have them at all.
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Trump doesn't have the power to destroy the media's credibility by simply stating that they are lying. The media has had poor credibility with many people for many years, and Trump is playing to that audience.

Do you really think Trump wants the NYT to stop writing about him? That would eliminate a major plank of his platform! People distrust the media, Trump attacks the media, people think Trump must be trustworthy. The media falls for it, over and over and over. Trolling the media is a winning strategy for Trump.
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So, I don't get why people continue to act as if the president's words are related to the specific literal subject matter of the topic he's discussing. After the 1000th time it shouldn't be surprising.
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

red sox 777 posted...

In the words of Hillary Clinton, what difference does it make what some official said? If it's not an official presidential tweet it doesn't reflect the president's position, and even then, that's only good until the next round of tweets.

The difference is that the President said the New York Times was lying and wrong, when they literally quoted someone in his administration.

Realistically, there's only two ways the president wouldn't say the NYT was lying. One is if they sold a ton of newspapers to the point where he would just look silly if he said they were failing. The other is if they started printing pro-Trump stories.
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In the words of Hillary Clinton, what difference does it make what some official said? If it's not an official presidential tweet it doesn't reflect the president's position, and even then, that's only good until the next round of tweets.
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Corrik is saying that if the president really wants the meeting to go forward, it will happen, regardless of how prepared his team is. If he has to go in there and wing it, he can decide to do that. If he wants to.
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So North Korea buckled under, and the meeting will still be on if Trump chooses for it to be on. Power assertion successful.
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Yeah, but Seph needn't care about a RINO opposing his Iraq War. Now, if he had good judgment to go with his courage, McCain could have opposed that war 15 years ago.
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Does Seph like McCain? I would have thought he's been well known as a RINO for about 20 years.
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

red sox 777 posted...

Trump criticized Hillary not so much for being bellicose as for being stupid about how to do it. But he's never expressed aversion to military action.

fair pount, maybe i shouldn't give trump that much credit for convincing people he was (more) pacifist. on second thought, it's probably a cognitive dissonance kind of thing. muffin, tom woods, lew rockwell, etc. are people who self-identify as anarchist but they just like trump, who obviously isn't anarchist in the least. so to explain this they go "well all the major candidates suck but trump is OBVIOUSLY the most pacifist and anti-war out of them," even though trump did nothing to indicate that this is actually the case.

Trump does give me the sense that he understands that limited war is, at best, ineffectual. The scary thing about politicians starting with Bush I guess is that they seemed to believe that you can win a limited war with minimal casualties. That kind of thinking makes war much more likely, because you believe you can win without anything bad happening.
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The typical Democrat can only handle one set of facts at a time. An average Republican can generally hold two sets of facts in his head at the same time, even if they contradict. Some very smart people can hold three or even four sets of facts, but it takes a true stable genius to be able to hold as many as 100 sets of contradictory facts in his head simultaneously. Of course, having such facility with facts makes playing 4D chess a lot easier.
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Teacher: Class, can anyone tell me what 2+2 is?

Tom: I know! It's 4.

Teacher: Wrong.

Sam: It's 5.

Teacher: Good job, can you explain how you got your answer.

Sam: First I opened up the internet. Then I checked President Trump's Twitter feed for the facts of the day. Today's tweets said 2 + 2 + 1 = 6. So then I subtracted 1 from both sides and got 2 + 2 = 5.

Teacher: Great job! Now, can anyone tell me if Tom would still be wrong tomorrow if President Trump tweeted 2 + 2 = 4?

Sarah: He'd still be wrong!

Teacher: That's right, because we also have to check what the Democrats are saying. And they say that 2 + 2 = 4 every day. So that answer would both be right and wrong at the same time.
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Jakyl25 posted...

red sox 777 posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

red sox 777 posted...

I submit that it's not possible to lie if you don't understand what a fact is.

So your claim is that Trump understands the CONCEPT of facts, not necessarily specific examples of facts?

Sure, okay, thats a little clearer.

Yes. I'm not sure how one would even understand specific facts. For example, the sky is blue. I know the sky is blue. I can observe that the sky is blue. I can say the sky is blue. I can lie and say the sky is green. But can I understand that the sky is blue? I'm not sure what there is to understand - it is a simple fact. I guess you could say I have to understand the concept of color and that an object can "be" a certain color, and the concepts of blueness and sky....

I mean it in you understand a specific fact by knowing that its a verified fact and not an alternative fact.

The Sky is yellow is presented AS a fact, but in actuality is NOT a fact

It's a false fact you mean. But facts can be false without losing their character as facts, in fact, it's their falsifiability that gives them their character as facts.

And again, you have to be able to distinguish between a true fact and false fact to lie.
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HashtagSEP posted...

Trump may know the fact that the sky is blue, but after he's said that it's green for long enough, it reeeally seems like he's starting to think it's actually green

That doesn't bother me much as long as he can differentiate between the following types of statements:

1. The sky is blue.
2. Blue is a beautiful color.
3. God made the sky blue because he likes the color blue.
4. The sky should be green.
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Jakyl25 posted...

red sox 777 posted...

I submit that it's not possible to lie if you don't understand what a fact is.

So your claim is that Trump understands the CONCEPT of facts, not necessarily specific examples of facts?

Sure, okay, thats a little clearer.

Yes. I'm not sure how one would even understand specific facts. For example, the sky is blue. I know the sky is blue. I can observe that the sky is blue. I can say the sky is blue. I can lie and say the sky is green. But can I understand that the sky is blue? I'm not sure what there is to understand - it is a simple fact. I guess you could say I have to understand the concept of color and that an object can "be" a certain color, and the concepts of blueness and sky....
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I submit that it's not possible to lie if you don't understand what a fact is.
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Kenri posted...

red sox 777 posted...

I think it's more that I feel more comfortable with the people, that they understand the differences between a fact, an opinion, an argument, and a moral position.

LMAO

Ive always defended you Red Sox, but truly LMAO if you actually believe this. Hello? Trump is President?? Lmaoooo

Trump understands perfectly well what a fact is. That's why he knows what an alternative fact is. He also knows how to exaggerate and even lie. Just compare Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton lying - the skill gap is enormous.
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When BriJakyl25 posted...

Trump is speaking to the Navy

https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/1000028833058381826?s=21

Trump lies: "We just got you a big pay raise. First time in 10 years. We got you a big pay increase. First time in OVER 10 years."

Troops have received pay increases every year. This raise is not as big as the one eight years ago under Obama.

Republicans know what FACTS are

https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/1000029887871225857?s=21

Trump: "We are recommitting to this fundamental truth: we are a maritime nation. True. And being a maritime nation, we're surrounded by sea. We must always dominate that sea. We will always dominate the oceans."

WE MUST ALWAYS DOMINATE THE SEA

When Britain first at Heaven's command
Arose from out the azure main
This was the charter, the charter of the land
And guardian angels sang this strain

Rule Britannia!
Britannia rule the waves!
Britons never never never shall be slaves!
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