Lurker > scar the 1

Esrac posted...

clearaflagrantj posted...

dontIoseyourway posted...

"I ate too much food so someone called me fat so I'm going to eat more food and become more fat"

It's always someone else's fault

Didnt someone post an article a few weeks ago about how food companies use psychology to get more people to eat their foods and insinuate that, therefore, they are to blame for obesity?

I mean, it does seem like a trend is to diminish the concept of personal responsibility for the fat people here. They just can't help themselves, apparently.

I believe you're referring to an article I posted. How much you want to blame whom for obesity is of course an open question, but there's not really any doubt that the food industry is quite predatory and will go to any lengths it can to make money.

The line of reasoning is extended in this article, as well, though. See for example this passage:

You see this in so much of the research: The most effective health interventions aren't actually health interventionsthey are policies that ease the hardship of poverty and free up time for movement and play and parenting. Developing countries with higher wages for women have lower obesity rates, and lives are transformed when healthy food is made cheaper.

It echoes what the article I posted some week ago said - that obesity is a class issue. IIRC that one cited some research indicating that there was a connection between being poor and an unhealthy diet. Here we have studies suggesting that healthy food is becoming increasingly more expensive per calorie, as well as a pilot program showing that making healthy food cheaper increased vegetable and fruit consumption. The above quote doesn't have any links to studies, though, sadly (other than the pilot program).
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Balrog0 posted...

but that's also obviously a behavior issue. there are two sides there. this author cites an article from a bioethicist and pans it becuase it encourages shaming fat people. well, it does, but it also talks about these other issues as well. It says that we need to do things to control obesity from the 'supply side' as well as the 'demand side' as they put it. is that really such a wrong idea? maybe fat shaming isn't the right way to do it but we also probably can't stop at system-level interventions

Well no, addressing the issue on both sides sounds perfectly reasonable. But when you have scary implications (admittedly implications at this point) like that study where the stigma itself reduces life expectancy more than the condition, it's important to be careful IMO.

Balrog0 posted...

nothing is entirely separable from social attitudes of course but I guess I'm questioning how much social attitudes are in the drivers seat as opposed to being downstream of the experts

Oh sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's some kind of feedback loop situation rather than one being the source of the other.
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Balrog0 posted...

scar the 1 posted...

tl;dr:

Science shows that diets rarely work and that fat shaming makes things worse.

CE: *proceeds to fat shame*

I was more interested in the citations about how doctors treat fat patients. That seemed to me to be more important than fat shaming in general. The problem isn't societal attitudes, it's about how physicians are trained to deal with obesity.

Do you think that's entirely separable from societal attitudes, though?
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Bok_Choi posted...

scar the 1 posted...

Bok_Choi posted...

and we keep talking about these healthy fat people like they're super common or something

Studies have found that anywhere from one-third to three-quarters of people classified as obese are metabolically healthy. They show no signs of elevated blood pressure, insulin resistance or high cholesterol.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabolically_healthy_obesity

Some research suggests that metabolically healthy obese individuals are at an increased risk of several adverse outcomes, including type 2 diabetes,[11] depressive symptoms,[12] and cardiovascular events.[13][14] Other research also suggests that although MHO individuals display a favorable metabolic profile, this does not necessarily translate into a decrease in mortality.[15] Research to date has produced conflicting results with respect to cardiovascular disease and mortality.[16] MHO individuals are at a higher risk of cardiovascular disease compared to metabolically healthy non-obese individuals, but they are also at a lower risk thereof than individuals who are both unhealthy and obese.[17][18] A 2016 meta-analysis found that MHO individuals were not at an increased risk of all-cause mortality (but were at an increased risk of cardiovascular events).[19] The relatively low risk of cardiovascular disease among people with MHO relative to metabolically unhealthy obese people has been attributed to differences in white adipose tissue function between the two groups.

Note the last two things did not have the qualifier "may" or "seemingly" or "were found to" before the statement
Being fat in itself is a problem, but it also exacerbates other problems.

Sure, what you're showing is that the jury is still out on exactly how unhealthy it is to be metabolically healthy obese. That's a far cry from the prejudice that they're non-compliant, over-indulgent and weak-willed (and keep in mind, these were just three examples of negative descriptors).
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Bok_Choi posted...

and we keep talking about these healthy fat people like they're super common or something

Studies have found that anywhere from one-third to three-quarters of people classified as obese are metabolically healthy. They show no signs of elevated blood pressure, insulin resistance or high cholesterol.

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Bok_Choi posted...

scar the 1 posted...

Dozens of indicators, from vegetable consumption to regular exercise to grip strength, provide a better snapshot of someones health than looking at her from across a room.

You can be "healthy" in every aspect but it's not a secret that just having a lot of fatty tissue on the body is taxing and renders most of that null

I'm no health expert and even I knew that

I'm not really seeing your point here. There's a documented bias that fat people are judged differently when showing the exact same symptom. Studies also show that fat people generally have shorter appointments and doctors show less emotional rapport. Like, there are clear, documented biases. Are you trying to excuse them or something?
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Bok_Choi posted...

scar the 1 posted...

The summary in the OP article just says "all else being equal", implying that the same behavior was described differently when demonstrated by fat patients.

it would seem to me that that's because they're fat and that's unhealthy

Dozens of indicators, from vegetable consumption to regular exercise to grip strength, provide a better snapshot of someones health than looking at her from across a room.

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prince_leo posted...

average women take care of their skin, wear makeup, and dress better than the average man
if the average man took the time to get a good haircut, shaved/trimmed facial hair, used moisturizer/sunscreen daily, and dressed without resorting to graphic tees and cargo shorts they'd be considered attractive

Yeah this. I have a feeling that the average woman spends a lot more time, effort and money on her looks than the average man.
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Bok_Choi posted...

if patients are being noncompliant wouldn't that indicate it's a problem with the patients

i know that sounds backward but i think it should be considered

Before making that judgement I would look closer at the study whose results you're calling into question. The summary in the OP article just says "all else being equal", implying that the same behavior was described differently when demonstrated by fat patients.
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Bok_Choi posted...

scar the 1 posted...

Well it's one thing that they have to see other patients. Of course there's a big discussion to be had about whether there are enough doctors and if healthcare is properly optimized etc, but there's this:
This phenomenon is not merely anecdotal. Doctors have shorter appointments with fat patients and show less emotional rapport in the minutes they do have. Negative wordsnoncompliant, overindulgent, weak willedpop up in their medical histories with higher frequency. In one study, researchers presented doctors with case histories of patients suffering from migraines. With everything else being equal, the doctors reported that the patients who were also classified as fat had a worse attitude and were less likely to follow their advice. And thats when they see fat patients at all: In 2011, the Sun-Sentinel polled OB-GYNs in South Florida and discovered that 14 percent had barred all new patients weighing more than 200 pounds.

lol i must have skipped over this part (if it's from the OP article)

that's actually pretty shitty but i still want to side on "doctors are humans too" on this. I'm sure you can only keep seeing the same patient coming in with sky-high blood pressure and triglyceride levels out the ass, let them know they have to stop eating unhealthily or they will risk heart disease, and then see them the next month for some other weight-related complication so many times before you get tired of it

"noncompliant" is about as neutral tone you can get for "doesn't follow instructions"
"overindulgent" shouldn't be considered so negative when it's very obviously true
"weak willed" bothers me a little because it kinda shows where the doctor's mind is at (that this patient doesn't REALLY need help, they just need to try harder)

Oh yeah, the article goes on to emphasize that it's not necessarily malicious intent with some anecdotes from doctors and patients, and then talks about unconscious biases. So the point isn't to blame doctors personally, rather to point out that the issue is apparent in health-care as well, and that it's damaging.
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Hexenherz posted...

Oh no sorry I meant a *different* show, the Swedish one is called From Beyond: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7714520/?ref_=fn_al_tt_3

They also have the Ray Bradbury Theater (that's a good one), and... Strange Events.

Oh sorry, misunderstood. Haven't heard of that one either though, cool cool
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Bok_Choi posted...

scar the 1 posted...

But the issue was also that doctors were found to spend less time on fat patients, no? So they definitely do play a part in the systematic issues. There are some nasty anecdotes about fat people complaining about stomach pains and just getting told to lose weight. Anecdotes of course but yeah

Right, but doctors aren't miracle workers. They have to see other patients, and as far as I can tell they like to move from "most likely" to "least likely" in terms of causes

So if you are a land whale and your stomach hurts, I wonder where the logical assumption would be
If that person actually lost weight or just started eating better and their stomachache wasn't going away, then you'd know there's a problem.

Well it's one thing that they have to see other patients. Of course there's a big discussion to be had about whether there are enough doctors and if healthcare is properly optimized etc, but there's this:

This phenomenon is not merely anecdotal. Doctors have shorter appointments with fat patients and show less emotional rapport in the minutes they do have. Negative wordsnoncompliant, overindulgent, weak willedpop up in their medical histories with higher frequency. In one study, researchers presented doctors with case histories of patients suffering from migraines. With everything else being equal, the doctors reported that the patients who were also classified as fat had a worse attitude and were less likely to follow their advice. And thats when they see fat patients at all: In 2011, the Sun-Sentinel polled OB-GYNs in South Florida and discovered that 14 percent had barred all new patients weighing more than 200 pounds.

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Bok_Choi posted...

scar the 1 posted...

So you actually don't have anything to say about the article then

i think she's saying it's bullshit to pin it on doctors

i think it's a fair point - doctors are not automatically fitness experts, they can't always develop a diet or exercise regime to help you lose weight. at the same time we should stop relying on them to be fitness experts.

Sure. But the issue was also that doctors were found to spend less time on fat patients, no? So they definitely do play a part in the systematic issues. There are some nasty anecdotes about fat people complaining about stomach pains and just getting told to lose weight. Anecdotes of course but yeah
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Creepy Chronicles is Swedish? I've never heard of it, and IMDB says USA
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Coffeebeanz posted...

Half the time, patients b**** about how doctors never talk about diet and exercise as legitimate medical advice. Now we've got a movement saying it hurts their feelings when we do.

Protip - it's not that diabetes runs in your family, the problem is that nobody runs in your family.

So you actually don't have anything to say about the article then
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Bloodychess posted...

Oh no, that poor activist group. Won't someone defend them!!

I'm just saying it's off-topic though
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Coffeebeanz posted...

I mean, the u-shaped curve demonstrates his point, tbh lol.

Until your BMI is above 30, then it skyrockets.

And Health at Every Size advocates tend to be ones with BMIs well above 35.

There's a difference between being large and being morbidly obese, and HAES advocates pretend it's all a continuum.

So do you have any comments on the article in the OP specifically or did you just come here to shit on some activist group?
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Coffeebeanz posted...

And here's one of the main points of the article in the OP: The focus on losing weight should be replaced with a focus on healthy habits. Losing weight is actually quite often not healthy.

As an actual doctor, please for the love of sanity just stop.

Thanks for your input. Don't you have some SPSS models to check?
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clearaflagrantj posted...

There is a direct, unequivocal link between waist to height ratio and health:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5318865/

Losing weight is healthy, that is an objective fact. You drank the HAES Koolaid.

You're linking to a study that does not say anything about losing weight.
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ColdOne666 posted...

Yes. They are very into fat shaming and it works.

So it has nothing to do with different dietary habits in different parts of the world? I mean you definitely can convince me, it just takes more than your word to do it.
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Bok_Choi posted...
1. One might argue "deal with it", it's a very pragmatic viewpoint, but again. It apparently doesn't work so well. No matter how many times one doubles down on it.

2. I don't see why this is relevant. The anecdotes in the article are there to paint a picture of how fat shaming looks. They're decorative in nature and don't really add much (if anything) to the actual point.

3. There was that study that I linked earlier (cited in the article) that showed that healthy food had gotten increasingly more expensive per calorie compared to unhealthy food. But this is a minor point to bicker over.

4. Good talk, it seems we agree more than it seemed we did
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GiftedACIII posted...

All studies are is just graphs and numbers which are then shown to the public. None of your evidence here have any more substantial negative correlation with higher obesity rates either.

Wow
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clearaflagrantj posted...

scar the 1 posted...

Link: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030691921000076X

Here's the thing, to lose weight you simply eat less food than what you are currently eating. So if you can afford to be obese, all you have to do is eat less of what you are eating and you will lose weight.

So it is frugal to lose weight.

And here's one of the main points of the article in the OP: The focus on losing weight should be replaced with a focus on healthy habits. Losing weight is actually quite often not healthy.
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GiftedACIII posted...

I mean, you were really quick to dismiss and brush away the fact that Asian countries have much lower rates of obesity with much higher stigma when that would logically be evidence that stigmas do work. The "evidence" in this article are far flimsier than that.
And the lower life expectancy from people who feel discriminated could be due to people who are less healthy and more likely to die would be the ones more likely to feel discriminated against to begin with.

I'll be happy to not dismiss and brush away your hypothesis if you present any evidence that stigmatizing obesity is positively correlated with lower obesity rates.
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clearaflagrantj posted...

scar the 1 posted...

Bok_Choi posted...

Yeah, THAT'S gonna make me want to sympathize with motor-scooter riders more
Holy s***
It's a f***ing lifestyle issue
It starts a childhood

Certain people need to raise their kids better

You don't need to sympathize with fat people to acknowledge that fat shaming is harmful and exacerbates a problem. Not matter how much you cover your ears and say that it's a lifestyle issue.

It's everyone's personal responsibility to maintain their own health, blaming someone else because they were fatshamed is pathetic.

Just 4 percent of agricultural subsidies go to fruits and vegetables. No wonder that the healthiest foods can cost up to eight times more, calorie for calorie, than the unhealthiestor that the gap gets wider every year.

Link: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030691921000076X

You see this in so much of the research: The most effective health interventions aren't actually health interventionsthey are policies that ease the hardship of poverty and free up time for movement and play and parenting. Developing countries with higher wages for women have lower obesity rates, and lives are transformed when healthy food is made cheaper. A pilot program in Massachusetts that gave food stamp recipients an extra 30 cents for every $1 they spent on healthy food increased fruit and vegetable consumption by 26 percent. Policies like this are unlikely to affect our weight. They are almost certain, however, to significantly improve our health.

Link to the pilot program: https://mafoodsystem.org/media/resources/pdfs/PilotFinalReport.pdf

But I suppose you think being poor is also a personal choice.
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Bok_Choi posted...

you and others made it seem like "body shaming" was the focal point of the article

Sorry if I misled you, to me it's more talking about how fat shaming and the attitudes towards fat people run far deeper than what you're dismissing as some stray comment. The takeaway for me in this article is that the way we talk about the solution to obesity (i.e., just telling people to eat less) isn't effective and misses the point. This is mainly for two reasons:
- It's very often done in a dismissive and shaming way, either explicitly or implicitly. This is harmful, so emphasis should be on supporting rather than shaming or denigrating.
- Weight isn't really the fundamental problem, so focus should instead be on health. You're right that it's got to do with lifestyle, what I take issue with is that IMO you make it seem very much like a personal choice. Often times, healthy choices aren't nearly as available to poor people. Healthy food is more expensive, they don't have time to exercise with their kids, etc. So it's a structural problem of lifestyle. That's what you're saying as well, I guess, when you say it's societal, so it may very well be that I'm just reading you wrong about placing too much blame on individuals.
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GiftedACIII posted...

scar the 1 posted...

tl;dr:

Science shows that diets rarely work and that fat shaming makes things worse.

CE: *proceeds to fat shame*

Where exactly are the studies that conclusively show a causation from fat shaming?
The only thing I found was

. According to several studies, thin doctors are more confident in their recommendations, expect their patients to lose more weight and are more likely to think dieting is easy

which linked to https://www.nature.com/articles/ijo201333.epdf which didn't say anything about thinking dieting is easy and in any case isn't actually fat shaming and there's nothing to show that it's tied to rising obesity rates.

Find me a study that conclusively shows causation about anything and I'll be surprised. Causation is super hard to show, and holding studies up to that standard is a little dishonest. Usually studies don't seek to prove causation. Especially as you move away from the really hard sciences. Here's one interesting passage, though:

According to a 2015 study, fat people who feel discriminated against have shorter life expectancies than fat people who don't. These findings suggest the possibility that the stigma associated with being overweight, the study concluded, is more harmful than actually being overweight.

Link to the 2015 study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4636946/
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@Kazi1212

A 2016 study that followed participants for an average of 19 years found that unfit skinny people were twice as likely to get diabetes as fit fat people. Habits, no matter your size, are what really matter. Dozens of indicators, from vegetable consumption to regular exercise to grip strength, provide a better snapshot of someones health than looking at her from across a room.

Link to the 2016 study:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4731253/
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Well yeah, the article makes the point that fat shaming is more than just yelling "eat less" at a parking lot. It's doctors giving you less time and worse care. It's being overlooked when applying for jobs. Etc. And it's focusing on people being fat when we already know that that's not a good solution, nor is it the fundamental problem (it's a symptom). But eh

I'm glad you finally decided to read the article instead of just talking
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Bok_Choi posted...

Yeah, THAT'S gonna make me want to sympathize with motor-scooter riders more
Holy s***
It's a f***ing lifestyle issue
It starts a childhood

Certain people need to raise their kids better

You don't need to sympathize with fat people to acknowledge that fat shaming is harmful and exacerbates a problem. Not matter how much you cover your ears and say that it's a lifestyle issue.
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Bok_Choi posted...

obesity is on the rise in asian nations DESPITE poverty
diets are changing with increased Americana consumerism enveloping the globe

Ok, but the context here was Asian countries, where poverty looks a little different from America. And often it's a little tricky to separate diet from poverty. And you're again just saying stuff in the face of actual studies with actual results.
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BettyB0op08 posted...

I'm not sure if it's "fat shaming" but certainly negative reinforcement. Being significantly overweight is seen as a negative stereotype trait associated with Americans and parents and even governments at times openly encourage not to become like that.
Also, on that note, you're not American, what do you know about American culture outside of internet articles? Have you ever been to the US?

And what about differences in diet, poverty, etc?

On not being an American: I've been in America a couple of times, I have relatives who have lived there for some 10-15 years. But I'm not making any claims about American culture here, am I? Why is my Americanness on trial?
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Me: "They cite studies that show..."
Bok: "This isn't happening"
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Kazi1212 posted...

What other indicators do they list? I thought high BMI shows a strong positive correlation with increased risk for certain diseases

Uh, they listed a bunch of others. I'm on my phone rn but I can copy the passage later. There is a positive correlation, yes, but there are other better indicators. Essentially, being fat doesn't have to mean you're unhealthy. It's often the case, but far from always.
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ColdOne666 posted...

scar the 1 posted...

Actually, no it doesn't. The article mentions that not a single country in the world has managed to reduce the rate of overweight/obese people

Asian countries have real low rates of obesity so it would be hard for them to get lower.

Sure, and are you honestly going to tell me that this is thanks to fat shaming?
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Bok_Choi posted...

that'd be great
if it were happening
i'm saying it's not, not that we should fat shame more

but fat shaming shouldn't be condemned because being fat is unhealthy and taxes society

Alright, the studies mentioned in the article show that it indeed happens, systematically even. They also show that high BMI is quite a poor indicator for bad health compared to a lot of other ones.
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Nazanir posted...

scar the 1 posted...

tl;dr:

Science shows that diets rarely work and that fat shaming makes things worse.

CE: *proceeds to fat shame*

Really? Because that writer did a fantastic job of not listing a single credible source for the claim they were making.

I summed up what the piece said. Not wether it had properly cited stats. If you choose to distrust an op-ed because it doesn't present references like an academic paper, feel free. I'm not going to hold it against you.
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Bok_Choi posted...

so are you actually a fat person or are you just defending fat people to feel good about yourself

i'm a fat person and i deal with insecurities regarding my body shape all the goddamn time
you don't see me crying because I looked at a shirt off the rack and my friend said "you sure that's big enough"

i have trouble remembering that I'm actually not that obese compared to other fat people - i'm someone who actually gets what being fat is like, even if I am not wal-mart motor-scooter fat

im just asking now because you've clearly run out of things to say to defend your idea that American adults actively make fun of each other for being fat in public

I'm not fat, and except for saying that I think bullying and fat shaming is wrong, I'm not really talking about individual people. I'm saying (like the article is) that fat shaming doesn't work. Regardless if you think they deserve it or not, it's well known that it literally makes things worse. So if you think it's actually a problem that overweight and obesity is increasing, it's frankly dumb to advocate fat shaming, from a purely pragmatic point of view. You don't have to even bother with the morals of it. This is the way things are.

Then add a food industry who will naturally seek to take as much advantage of this as possible to maximize profits
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Kazi1212 posted...

catboy0_0 posted...

Kazi1212 posted...

Do you drink a lot of drinks full of empty calories, like soda or beer?

not anymore. I drink a high gravity tall can or two once or twice a week and avoid soda almost entirely. I mostly just drink water all day.

Ive heard changing drink habits helped a lot of people toward weight loss. Have you been drinking mostly water for a hefty length of time now?

Same. A lot of people I know noticed a big change just when they completely stopped with soda.
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BettyB0op08 posted...

Works for countries like China, Korea, Greece and Japan. Places like NA and UK's public opinion on obesity is actually more lenient than most other places precisely because it's more common.

Actually, no it doesn't. The article mentions that not a single country in the world has managed to reduce the rate of overweight/obese people.
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Bok_Choi posted...

Literally being reminded that they are fat is too much for some people? LOL maybe you should try not being fat then

It's like I make some hyperbolic statement and then you come and make it for real. It's impressive
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Bok_Choi posted...

scar the 1 posted...

Bok_Choi posted...

Imagine thinking "People called me fat and that made me sad so I ate more so I am now fatter" is a valid excuse

Imagine justifying your preference of bullying

if having your body shape pointed out is bullying maybe fat people should, ironically, get some thicker skin

"Hey, we have a public health epidemic going on in the entire world. We should try and figure out how to fix it"
"Let's just shame people"
"We tried that and it didn't work, actually it made things worse"
"Well people should be different, let's shame them more"
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I played a lot of MUDs when I was younger. Big part in teaching me English.
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Bok_Choi posted...

Imagine thinking "People called me fat and that made me sad so I ate more so I am now fatter" is a valid excuse

Imagine justifying your preference of bullying
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Kazi1212 posted...

Ah that makes sense, the way you phrased your initial post made it sound like dieting wasnt going to help fat people become healthier.

Yeah I realized that, lol. My bad
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Kazi1212 posted...

Hmm so diets rarely work, but your weight is affected a lot more by what you eat? Im not sure the logic makes sense here.

I can understand the confusion. When they say that science shows diets rarely work, what they mean is that studies show most people don't manage to complete them (iirc the number cited was absurdly high, 95-98%). And even when people do lose weight, they're more likely to gain it all back. So going on a diet, like Atkins or something, is likely to fail.

This of course is separate from the fact that people eat too many calories. Honestly I thought the piece was quite interesting, especially if you skim the anecdotes. They're just there to make you feel more.
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Kazi1212 posted...

scar the 1 posted...

tl;dr:

Science shows that diets rarely work and that fat shaming makes things worse.

CE: *proceeds to fat shame*

Does this apply for exercise as well? Does that rarely work?

The article didn't say, but we know that your weight is affected a lot more by what you eat than by exercise.
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Where I'm at, restaurants close their kitchen before they close. So you're free to enter but they won't serve you very much.
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Bok_Choi posted...

Right, and pining for obesity sympathy is totally the right path

Not fat shaming is just basic human decency
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Bok_Choi posted...

scar the 1 posted...

tl;dr:

Science shows that diets rarely work and that fat shaming makes things worse.

CE: *proceeds to fat shame*

It's a lifestyle issue

That should be resolved by people feeling so much shame from being fat that they prevent their offspring from being fat too except oh no now they have genetics to blame

certain people are gonna be riding motorized scooters at 25 for the foreseeable future

scar the 1 posted...

tl;dr:

Science shows that diets rarely work and that fat shaming makes things worse.

CE: *proceeds to fat shame*

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