Lurker > turbopuns3

What kind of patterns?

yep

Here you go @PrivateBiscuit1

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/78182311

Maybe this topic is needed. Maybe it isn't. One way to find out!

For those of you who are software developers by trade, what kind of experience do you have? What kind of teams and projects have you worked on?

Dump all your unreasonably opinionated opinions here. Let's just see where this goes.

If we had this argument in person it would've lasted an hour, two hours tops. Look at what happens when you have the conversation asynchronously! Days of bullshit. Score one for face to face imo, imo.

Lopen posted...

Anyone who argues that remote isn't better 100% of the time is THE ENEMY dude

How ironic is it that foolmo is doing his best brick wall impression in this debate about effective communication.

foolm0r0n posted...

Not sure why you were arguing so much for the anti-remote side.

I've never been anti-remote and you know this by now I'm sure.

So all I need to do is win out (I face the 10-1 team next week) while also outscoring the 7-4 team by 150 points over that stretch while he also loses out.

Over the past two weeks I'm outscoring him by 17/week so I just need to triple my average margin and maintain it for three weeks, easy peasy

Then why does any chat conversation that escalates in complexity invariably result in one of us walking over to the other person's computer?

What I'm saying here is that if what you say is correct that chair swiveling is the most awful way to communicate and that the damage it has on my company is easy to demonstrate, the following scenario I'm about to describe would not exist. And yet it happens several times a day (not with just me specifically but across the whole department). We do not depend completely on face to face communication but it is far more practical in some contexts.

Here is an example scenario of what I'm describing:

I'm in the office, at my desk, working on a bug ticket. I'm looking through the relevant section of code and just getting a grasp of what it's trying to do. It's the first time I've seen this particular part of our code.

Eventually I pinpoint where things are going wrong, and I start trying to think of the best solution. A helpful thing to have would be full contextual knowledge of what the original developer was aiming for when they wrote the code - why do it this way and not that way, are there any pitfalls I should be aware of, any relevant business logic, do any of our other repos depend on this code, etc.

The original developer is sitting at their desk which is approximately 10 feet away. I look over and notice him sitting there with headphones on.

He seems to be focused, so I send him a message over our team chat as to not be intrusive (notifications are configurable, he can be bothered when he wants to be, etc. yay asynchronous communication)

After 5 or 10 minutes he responds something to the effect of "oh, hmmm that was a long time ago that I worked on that. I need a refresher to be able to give a good answer"

Now at this point, he has two options (well, three I guess):

-read over the bug ticket to get a gist of the issue, then change contexts of what he's working on, (opening up another instance of his IDE, browser, etc.), sift through the code long enough to jog his memory on everything, eventually type up some notes and/or response questions which may or may not ultimately be of any real relevance to my direct problem

or,

-he can stand up and take 5 steps over to my desk, where I'm sitting there with the exact spot in the code already open, and my mind is totally fresh on all the context of the bug and the existing code, so I can very quickly catch him up on the exact relevant parts, which things I've looked into already, what I've considered and not considered, etc. , and as he sort of stumbles around in his memory getting back to the point of the code path I'm working in, I can quickly steer him and keep him on track because I know exactly where I need him to be

(third option is he just doesn't help me but that's neither here nor there)

Now, that whole face to face interaction could take place over the team messaging system. But it would take way longer even if we said the exact same words back forth, because typing is slower than talking. But on top of that it's impossible that the exchange would not use more words over chat because I don't get to know what he's thinking until he fully completes and commits a message. I just see some moving ellipses for 30 seconds and then get a few lines that may not be remotely relevant. Whereas in spoken language I could cut him off right away if he's off base.

When given the option in this scenario, it's kind of silly to picture us sitting 10 feet part, chatting to each other about the problem, when we could just be talking and be way more effective. Everyone who chooses to work in the office would make the decision to stand up and walk over to the other person's desk, because it's just a thousand times more practical in that context.

Nelson_Mandela posted...

This is the worst topic

Did you read all of them? ;)

I avoided looking at this topic for an entire day because the thought of it made me feel super cringey and that is how I know I've extended too far once again.

I hope you're enjoying San Francisco. :)

To me the topic was never about whether working remote was good or bad or whether face to face was necessary. It was just about foolmo coming across as a condescending douchenozzle. I'm sure it's not 100% intentional and part of it just escalates with me because his particular flavor of condescension hits close to home and it's related to things I often think about IRL but rarely have the chance to discuss, so when I'm already here blowing off steam in the first place and such a subject comes up I get entangled easily.

Anyway our work experiences are pretty different, it seems, and I agree with basically everything Lopen said.

It's board 8 what do you expect?

foolm0r0n posted...

They can learn to program as well as you, but you (clearly) won't learn to communicate like them. That's why I say they are more effective.

I used to have a job that was live chat (instant messaging) techincal support and my pay rate was determined by customer satisfaction surveys, in which I was consistently in the highest tier (>95% satisfaction)

My job prior to being a developer was also a technical job where I had to communicate countless times per day with external customers - half techincal, half non-technical - via email only, for 2.5 years. (When it was particularly involved they would call me on the phone-- because it's more effective when you have a lot to discuss)

Prior to that I had a job where all I did all day was call people on the phone and support technical issues remotely.

Now that I'm a dev my team rates me as the best communicator.

When I was younger I was the lead in a few different plays and have been in musicals, public speaking roles, etc. basically since I was 15.

For goodness sake, stop talking to me like I'm some ass-backward stubborn nincompoop who just doesn't have a clue.

Please, if you're going to keep on about it, share with us these almighty _sources_ you have. Show me the science that's going to prove to me once and for all that I should never look my coworkers in the eye again. I really can't wait to see it.

foolm0r0n posted...

You said all you solve all your hard problems face to face, therefore excluding your remote coworkers. That's why I said they were more effective (assuming they don't limit their communication).

There are so many bad assumptions baked into this I don't even know where to begin.

You assume that because I choose to resolve things face-to-face when it's an option, that I would automatically by definition leave problems completely unresolved if I was remote.

You assume all the solutions implemented by my remote coworkers are better and more effective than my solutions.

You assume that my remote coworkers would not also use face-to-face communication to resolve difficult tasks if they were in the office. Just because they're remote and they ultimately set the work item to "resolved" state does not mean their solution was optimal or more effective.

And I said I guess you've never been on an effective in-person team only because I can't fathom how someone could have a positive experience working closely on a team and then turn around and say communicating with humans face-to-face is the most awful method possible.

I'm not anti-remote. I'm not sure when or why you started thinking I am.

In my first post, I said

turbopuns3 posted...

I mean I'm a software developer and when my team was given the option to try working from home, I still came to the office (though a couple people on my team stayed home) because I just work better in that environment for a number of reasons (human interaction being one). But my drive to work is 10-15 minutes so maybe it doesn't matter.

I work better.

I never said nobody could ever work better remote. I never said people shouldn't work remote.

I said I work better in the office, and you said that's like the worst possible way to communicate ever, and I responded to that. I don't think I ever argued that remote work cannot be effective.

foolm0r0n posted...

Nothing I presumed from you was a guess. It's all based on what you told me. You think less of your remote coworkers because they are lazy millennials. You can only handle hard problems face to face. These are things you have said yourself

I did not say any of that nor did I imply it. You just chose to extract the most convenient possible interpretation of things in order to push your point.

You said, with almost no context whatsoever,

foolm0r0n posted...

You are less effective than them.

You said this knowing nothing beyond the fact I do not work remote and they do work remote.

This assertion assumes a lot so you don't get to act like it doesn't.

Given no further context, you assumed the utmost optimism of my coworkers and the worst about me, ("They work from home and you do not, ergo they are more effective than you"), without even knowing them or me or anything about the organization of our workplace.

So, I'm sorry but you come across like a grossly self-important smug ass here. I never asked for your sources because I don't give a damn about your sources because they aren't going to change my situation whatsoever.

I need it to be a 7 field goal kinda night for the chiefs.

Oh I see these people 5 days a week, I'm not worried about them flaking.

I know this isn't "meta" but I went 31 into elemental and then into enhancement for 2H weapons instead of going into resto. Just got to 51 and had the opportunity to start using a nice 2H mace with high dps and a chance on hit effect.

I gotta say I'm having a blast pulling with 1-2 lightning bolts then the second the mob gets in range having a single melee swing go off for 1k total on a windfury proc lol

Also very nice in mara where a lot of mobs are nature immune

Oh yeah I'm still in it, just taking a break while the others catch up

https://m.maploco.com/visited-states/mine.php?states=AL-CA-CO-DC-DE-FL-GA-IL-IN-KY-MD-MI-MN-NC-NV-OH-SC-TN-VA-WI-WV

Lived in Kentucky my whole life

Neat

Ah crap I forgot to post.

Guess I'll go with

Level 6

RAIDERS (-16.5)

What's the point of having the deadline for the tiebreaker be 1pm when those games have zero impact on who I would pick for the later games? >_>

Yes

Wednesdays at 11pm eastern

Like what if you only published four chapters of the original fanfic and then it had 2 million views. That would be awfully surprising!

Chris you are making something great here. Try not to get discouraged. I see this as something that won't gain a ton of traction until there's one random episode that has one random moment that's just next level great and that will spread and then all the people who like that moment will have the experience of realizing "wait, there's X-1 other episodes of this??" and then it will take off from there.

Just keep doing exactly what you're doing. The source material is great and popular so this will be as well.

Did ZF the other night and someone paid me 15g to subscribe to their YouTube channel.

Well, the 3-7 team facing the 6-4 team has Conner who is done for the night with 2 points. RIP

Year before I don't remember the details I just know the guy went from like 2-6 to run the table and win it all and I think the number was 4(?) of my starters all got their lowest or second lowest scores of the entire season in the championship.

I made the very poor choice to not pick up CJ Anderson thinking it was going to be a trap and he'd bust. Cost me the championship oops

All teams from last year's championship and the one before that are all 3-7 lol

Three distinct teams, one of which is me

Two distinct champions, neither of which is me :(

I'm still haunted by a 1.4 point loss in week 2 where there were four different bench players I could've started and won.

My work league right now:

9-1
8-2
7-3
6-4
5-5
3-7
3-7
3-7
3-7
3-7

Everybody theoretically still in the hunt. It ain't over til' it's over, I guess.

Anyway.

Yeah, remote communication can be situationally better, and so can in person communication. Clearly you have more experience in organizations where remote is preferable, so good for you, but your adamant stance that in person communication is necessarily awful almost by definition is at best a silly exaggeration.

When I chimed into the conversation initially I was speaking for myself and about my own situation, not to say that remote communication cannot work, but simply to offer an example of face to face communication being preferable. The presumptions you made about me and my coworkers were good for a laugh. I don't guess you've ever been a part of an effective team that worked well together in person (not just at a job but any sort of team), which is a bummer, but if you can navigate life without it then go for it.

For the record I don't literally swivel my chair. I was speaking loosely because I didn't realize that my proximity to certain inanimate objects had such a major impact on my face to face communications.

foolm0r0n posted...

Most people don't actually prefer that nearly all their daily human interaction is with their coworkers. It's largely a culture instilled by extroverted CEOs who enjoy buying their friends.

And? Some people are extroverted and like to interact with their coworkers.

I mean I guess you can say "you're all just brainwashed wage slaves!" which I know you like to say, but I could just say the opposite "this work from home culture is instilled by introverts who are afraid to put themselves out into the world" and it would have just as little clout with you as your extrovert comment would have with me.

Or well, that's what I meant anyway.

Technically I didn't say you two were similar, I just said I'm similar to both of you. >_>

word

My hair on my head is brown and my eyebrows are black (or, at least very, very dark brown) and my beard is full on red, and the hair on my arms is closer to blonde.

IRL this is not all nearly as jarring as it sounds when I say it like that, lol

Some B8ers constantly argue with users who are most different from themselves...other B8ers constantly argue with users who are most similar to them...I engage foolmo and Lopen out of love, tbqh.

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

what even is this topic

It's people actually earnestly discussing something with foolmo, which is the most miserable thing you could do other than existing as foolmo.

I lol'd

foolm0r0n posted...

Keep in mind I'm arguing with people who think it's laughable to suggest there's a better way to communicate than swiveling a chair.

Why do you keep emphasizing the chair, an irrelevant and unnecessary detail, as opposed to the actually relevant part which is just communicating in person? Almost like you're intentionally distorting the point to artificially discredit the notion.

Can people communicate effectively remotely? Obviously. Nobody is saying otherwise.

or what "regular beard" means

>Regular beard
>Beard out of control

I feel like I should fall between these two, but alas.

I guess it's a matter of opinion on what "out of control" really means

Apparently that's like the normal expected amount of vacation in western europe?

Wait I made a slight mix up. Baseline I get 26 PTO days per year, with a maximum of 5 unused days carrying over to the next year. So this year I do have 31 because I saved 5 from last year.

And yeah the 10 holidays are on top of that. 6 of them are set dates and 4 are floating (in recognition of certain holidays but if you want you can choose to work on the designated day and take it a different time)

Software developer

Biggest pros:

-super generous time off policy (31 days of PTO and 10 holidays like what)
-autonomy (flexible hours, independence to choose how to implement a solution, etc. Never told "how" only told "what")
-geeks for coworkers (weekly board game night at the office, someone always is interested in the same new video game I'm interested in, etc)
-get to rub elbows with some truly brilliant people who have vastly more experience and knowledge than me. Improving via osmosis

Biggest cons:

-I kind of seasonally wish my job was more physically active and/or outdoors (maybe this isn't actually tied to the job and would happen regardless)
-despite how much of my free time is spent with a screen regardless, sometimes I think I might rather leave programming for hobby time and have a job that is more people oriented (or maybe just more of a hybrid role...I definitely love my head down technical time too)
-the best answer is a constantly moving target. You don't just learn the trade and then you know what you need to know. Technology constantly advances and you have to keep up to stay relevant (this applies to most things but not quite so much as technology)

I can't think of any movie that's a "guilty pleasure" to be honest. If I like it I just like it, no guilt necessary

Mean Girls? Or is that too popular to be guilty pleasure?

If I had to pick one, it'd probably be a rom com.

Legally Blonde or How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days