Lurker > red sox 777

Well, Mr. President, if they are a criminal organization, good thing you have the power to make changes there. They all report to you and you can fire people there at will.

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September 1, 2003; November 4, 2007; September 2, 2013
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So the thing about the modern media (with the probable exception of Fox) is that they are utterly incompetent. Trump was absolutely correct that they worked hard to elect Hillary, and managed only to hurt her.

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xp1337 posted...

It's not even a deep red district. It was like Trump+2.

and doing this in a redistricting year.

All indications are that he personally does not want to impeach and saw dire primary polling on what would happen if he did not vote to impeach. IIRC he also tried to vote "no" on the Speaker vote back at the start of the year but I may be mixing him up with someone else.

also comedy moment of the year was the report that he asked the DCCC if they'd still support him if he changed parties

Given how much the DCCC loves moderate Republicans I'd say that was a completely reasonable question!

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Are you talking about Scottish independence?

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But yeah Labour did just fine with the centrists. They held their own in London and the South. They got annihilated in the working class areas in the North. And they've been completely replaced as the party of the left in Scotland.

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And I suspect it's making some crazy assumptions because the SNP + Northern Ireland seats alone far exceed 49, so 601 would require swinging seats from the SNP to Labour, which I doubt increasing youth turnout by any amount would do.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

https://www.politico.com/news/2019/12/13/biden-warns-democrats-about-results-of-uk-election-084359

Joe Biden is awful, and I will put 20 bucks up that says Buttigieg adopts this line soon.

The polling is not in favor of Labour's policy being bad, these results are due to anti-Corbyn bias, Brexit, and garbage-tier youth turnout.

Funny/sad sidenote: I saw a graphic that said that if every 18-24 year old voted, the results would have been 601 Labour seats to 0 Conservative.

It's the youth that Dems need to get, not the centrists.

Is that assuming they all vote Labour? If so, that really doesn't show anything.

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The pardon list

Donald Trump
Donald Trump Jr.
Ivanka Trump
Melania Trump
Barron Trump
Ivana Trump
Vladimir Putin
Every single KGB or FSB agent worldwide
Mitch McConnell
Hillary Clinton

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Jakyl25 posted...

Funny, we never use the UK as a valid example of other policies people like

I never understood how proud British people seem about the NHS. Don't a lot of countries have public healthcare? I feel like beating the United States in this area should not be a source of such pride.

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Hopefully we'll get Hunter Biden and Hillary Clinton testifying.

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We could end up with a 2-tier justice system here, as was the case in Britain until the 30s or 40s. Regular people get tried in the regular courts. The President and his allies are tried in the United States Senate.

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Also, SCOTUS should be keenly aware of what happened when it ruled against Andrew Jackson - he made that famous quip, "[The chief justice] has made his ruling, now let him enforce it." And the President proceeded to ignore the decision of the Supreme Court with no consequences, because there wasn't support in Congress to impeach him.

SCOTUS has been building its power in the nearly 200 years since that episode by being careful never to make orders it didn't think would be followed.

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xp1337 posted...

SCOTUS decided to take up the Trump subpoenas case (both Congress and NY.) Arguments expected in March.

what a joke ruling against congress would kill checks and balances. SCOTUS could have just declined and let the lower rulings stand.

Guessing this is a stall tactic by the conservatives on the court (only need 4 for cert) and I am bracing myself for the eventual Roberts "No, the Administration is wrong on the merits (so we can subpoena future democratic presidents) but you can't get Trump's records because (arcane technical reason)" 5-4 decision in June or whatever.

Not sure if the House can request SCOTUS expedite this because it'd be kinda important and relevant atm but I'm not holding my breath and with arguments in March even if they somehow handed down a ruling in a day by then the Senate trial has surely ended.

Well, they've expedited things before. They decided Bush v. Gore in 3 days. And I think checks and balances requires the executive to have immunity from this kind of thing. Otherwise the President would be below Congress. It would be like the House issuing a subpoena to the Senate.

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When is DJT pardoning himself for all crimes he or may not have committed?

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So what makes Corbyn unpopular as a personality? He doesn't seem like a great speaker, but then, neither is Boris Johnson (at least to my ears).

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

No one is advocating for Arkham Asylum style "rehabilitation" where Harley Quinn falls in love with The Joker and deems him sane and Two-Face keeps tricking the doctors. Come on.

The entire point of advocating rehabilitation is to make the process better, and that's also why violent criminals are lowest priority compared to rehab for non-violent offenses and improving prison conditions in general. If you don't or can't make a fair assessment, or it's impossible to rehab someone, then don't let them out.

But the problem is that if you take the position that if you can't determine if someone is rehabilitated they stay in prison, the result is that they stay in prison for longer. Longer than they would have if there was no rehab -> release provision, because the starting sentence will be longer in a world in which people can be released early. Either that, or the deterrent effect of the sentence will be less because the average served sentence will be less.

So people end up in prison not because of what they did, as determined a jury, but based on what a team of doctors think about them. That's really troubling to me.

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Also, I oppose community service as a punishment. We should have a 28th Amendment that says that slavery is illegal in all circumstances, even as a punishment for crime.

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Jakyl25 posted...

And if the professionals say they CANT accurately determine it, then I retract my idea

Realistically in a lot (most?) cases they are not going to be all that accurate, even if they have the best intentions.


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Yeah, rehabilitation as a condition of release has some serious problems, like giving too much power to whoever it is determining whether someone has been rehabilitated. It can result in an actually innocent person staying in prison for his full sentence because he refuses to confess and so is deemed not to be rehabilitated, while a good liar is able to convince the authorities that he has repented and changed. And what is the lesson for people thinking about whether to commit crimes - they will be released as soon as they can convince others they have been rehabilitated? That significantly reduces the deterrent.

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But! We need to crack down hard on really serious crimes, like deleting emails.

Then it's time to massively increase the budget of our immigration courts, so that they can hear deportation proceedings quickly - and maybe set up a preliminary hearing procedure that allows someone to be quickly determined to be legally in the country and released, and if not, then they can be held in detention pending a full hearing with all the due process bells and whistles. Or they can voluntarily leave the country.

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I think I am pretty close to coming around to categorically opposing the sentence of life in prison without parole. Or any sentence of years in excess of a human lifespan without parole.

Then make the right to a jury trial nonwaivable, so that there can't be a plea bargain. And seal all criminal records.

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xp1337 posted...

well technically he can't be primaried at all anymore since he left the party. but he was facing an immediate primary challenge before he did that and polling wasn't looking great for him. like down 10-16 points bad.

That's surprising to me I'll admit. I do think a campaign would help, where he could refresh the voters' memory about everything else he's done so he's not just remembered as the Republican who voted for impeachment.

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xp1337 posted...

No surprise to anyone here but House Judiciary approved both articles of impeachment this morning 23-17.

Full House vote should be next week, Wednesday is the expected day.

Excellent. Let's those articles of impeachment passed before the Democrats can realize their mistake and desist.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Republican "socialism" will be only for white Christians and the government will refuse to tax corporations so Mexico will have to pay for it

It'll be the next step beyond the Stalin model of socialism in one country. Socialism in one country.....that pays for it by taking from other countries!

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Amash has bona fides as a vocal Tea Party guy. I think he is fairly confident he can't be primaried from the right. And he's probably right.

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Jakyl25 posted...

How do you define socialism in such a way that our country doesnt already do it?

It's only a matter of time before the Republican Party, and therefore the country, embraces socialism. Just wait until the Democrats completely abandon socialism - then Republicans will fill the gap and talk about how great things like building roads and having a strong military are.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

https://twitter.com/benjaminwittes/status/1205317463262531585

Trump is coordinating strategy with his jurors

Very legal and very cool!

We call it jury nullification. What juries did with the Fugitive Slave Act. The last defense of freedom against tyranny!

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And why would socialists vote Republican?

1. Because Republicans promise socialist policies.
2. Because Republicans treat them with respect.
3. Because Republicans ask for their votes.
4. Because Democrats treat them with the utmost contempt.
5. Because Democrats promise neoliberal policies.
6. Because Democrats act as if their votes are taken for granted.

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TheRock1525 posted...

Why in the blue fuck would socialists vote Republican?

Bernie voters broke more for Hillary than Hillary voters for Obama.

This is so fucking dumb, even for you.

Hillary and McCain had virtually identical platforms focused on "experience" and centrism, so not surprising.

I am not saying that in 2024 Republicans will win a majority of the socialist vote. But they will win more than in 2020, and more in 2020 than 2016, and after 2020 the train will have left the station and it will be very hard to pull it back. It's a very strong feedback loop as socialists lose more and more power within the Democratic Party even while the Republican Party sees them as the key to electoral victory and treats them as first class citizens.

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Jeremy Corbyn speaking. Essentially blaming the loss on Brexit rather than core Labour policies. Good for him for basically recognizing that the remain stance the party took was the problem.

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TheRock1525 posted...

Why are you so fucking dumb?

Do you disagree with my forecast?

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I will say, I think this 2020 election may be the last chance for Democrats to support Bernie and win the socialist vote. Another round of 2016 and the socialist left will probably vote Republican for a generation.

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Watching Sky TV right now. Lots of people talking about how Labour is becoming a party of the metropolitan cities only, losing its traditional blue collar heartland in the North of England. Yup, they've followed the Democrats down the road to electoral destruction!

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Corrik7 posted...

A lot of swing state polls are favorable to Trump right now.

If the Democrats make big gains in both deep blue and deep red states and wind up at like +5 in the national popular vote and still lose by just as much as last time or more because they make no gains in swing states, I am going to laugh so hard.


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Was the polling close this time? I thought the Tories had been pretty decisively ahead ever since the Brexit Party voters realized their best shot to get Brexit was to vote Tory.

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And in case Spain or someone tries to veto Scotland's EU accession, I still say the best way is to have England secede from the UK and Northern Ireland rejoin Ireland. Then the rump UK, now consisting of Scotland only, revokes Article 50 and remains in the UK. Everyone wins.

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Corbyn could be PM now if he had pushed for Leave and made that the official Labour position while David Cameron was pushing Remain. As in the US, the conservatives took the opportunity first.

Congratulations to the British people for finally leaving the EU. To the Tories, I hope you so the right thing and grant Scotland a 2nd referendum on secession.

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Assuming Brexit happens now for real, we'll probably get a US/UK trade deal that's very favorable for the UK over the Summer so Trump can brag about his dealmaking.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

To be clear I think that at the current moment it would be best for the country if the GOP was electorally destroyed. Losing is the only thing that's going to kill Trumpism. But if that does happen and Dems end up getting long term supermajorities (I strongly doubt this will actually happen), they'll probably end up passing some stupid shit that a healthier opposition party would have stopped (because a common consequence of not having to seriously defend your ideas is to not figure out problems with them).

If you want to stop Trumpism you need the Democrats to suffer such great electoral defeat that their voters abandon them for a new party that can actually compete with the Republican Party.

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Ashethan posted...

You do need to be opposed and challenged. It's how progress is made. A one party state sounds like a good idea, until you realize that it leads to complacency.

But we don't need the Republican party to be challenged. There can be other political parties. Maybe ones that aren't cultists that worship their leader and put party above country. There should be no going back for anyone who is okay with what Trump is doing while he's in office. They should be blackballed, and Democrats should refuse to work with them for the rest of their careers.

The Democrats are the party that's supposed to be challenging the party in power right now. And they're failing horribly, leaving 54% of the country effectively unrepresented.

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Jakyl25 posted...

Why do we lock people up pre-trial then?

I don't think the framers intended that to happen, certainly not as a matter of course. Trials were also much faster in those days and non-incarceration sentences (like whipping or the pillory) more prevalent.

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Jakyl25 posted...

Thats not really inalienable though

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, and are endowed by their Creator with certain conditional rights

They are inalienable without the agreement of the person who loses the rights. He consents to lose such rights by committing crimes.

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Jakyl25 posted...

I know its not legally binding.

I just wonder how the CONCEPT was reconciled with the realities of running a nation, even putting aside slavery and patriarchy.

Did they not really mean it?

Ok, to address this substantively, yes they meant it but not in they way you mean it. They meant that each person was born with a right to life, but he could still forfeit it by committing murder or treason or other capital crimes. Same with liberty. The pursuit of happiness is maybe an absolute right.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

He's correct; an unchecked political party is bad regardless of their intent. Ideas need to be challenged.

The current GOP, however, is beyond saving; it needs to completely implode before it can be rebuilt as a sane opposition party.

That's how I feel about the Democrats!

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Jakyl25 posted...

I know its not legally binding.

I just wonder how the CONCEPT was reconciled with the realities of running a nation, even putting aside slavery and patriarchy.

Did they not really mean it?

Of course not. The Declaration of Independence aside from the preamble is basically a set of articles of impeachment against the King. And they are some extremely flimsy ones.....somehow they charge him with both supporting and opposing slavery, in addition to doing things perfectly within a king's right to do, like vetoing bills and summoning legislatures to meet at places of his choosing.

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xp1337 posted...

not a constitutional scholar

but the easy answer would appear to be that the declaration of independence has nothing to do with the framework of the laws here

so you don't have to reconcile them at all you can just ignore the declaration of independence when deciding legal matters. the question of why do they seem to differ would be one posed instead to historians/biographers of the founders and authors on why they did that

Legally speaking, the Declaration of Independence is not binding law in the United States. It might possibly have been law under the Articles of Confederation, but the passage of the current Constitution effectively overthrew the United States of the Articles in a bloodless revolution.

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I personally find life in prison to be a much more depressing sentence than death.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

Basically your argument here is that the Dems should not hold Trump accountable because it would... restrict their future ability to hold him accountable? How does that make sense?

If they can never use that power to ensure its continued existence, why does it matter that it exists anyway?

Yes! Precisely! A day may come when Trump goes over the line, when his acts go so far that there is enough support with the public and in Congress to remove him. When and if that day comes, you want to make sure you have the tools remaining to impeach and remove him. As long as you have those tools, it also acts as a check on any president - who will restrain their actions knowing that they could be removed from office for going too far.

If you impeach now you will firmly establish that everything Trump has done to date is 100% okay. Trump or any future president will have to go far beyond what he has done so far before there is even any more discussion about impeaching and removing him. That is definitely bad for the country. And if Democrats could think 2 steps ahead, they would see that.

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Jakyl25 posted...

Can the Senate rule that Trump is technically guilty of the impeachment charges, but not remove him?

I don't think so. But, with a majority of the vote (not just 1/3+1) they can dismiss the charges without finding whether Trump factually committed them or not by ruling that even if he did, they don't constitute impeachable conduct.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

Ordering witnesses to impeachable conduct not to testify by asserting a nonexistent absolute privilege is obstruction.

It might be right now. If the Senate dismisses the charge (as opposed to just finding Trump not guilty), a precedent will be set that the conduct you describe is not obstruction, or obstruction is not an impeachable offense.

Why are Democrats so eager to set a precedent that the President can get away with whatever he wants? A reporter asked Nancy Pelosi whether she was concerned about what checks would remain on Trump if he wins reelection and she said she didn't want to even think about that!

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