Lurker > scar the 1

Maybe play a game?

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Stop being so aggressively argumentative for no reason. - UnfairRepresent

Bad_Mojo posted...

Ban self service and give people jobs

Ban jobs and give people money

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Stop being so aggressively argumentative for no reason. - UnfairRepresent

Imagine being the coworker of these people :)

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Stop being so aggressively argumentative for no reason. - UnfairRepresent

You're a solid professional fam

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Stop being so aggressively argumentative for no reason. - UnfairRepresent

Great now ban oil next

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Stop being so aggressively argumentative for no reason. - UnfairRepresent

Developers are fairly open about the fact that they don't build to solve a housing crisis, they build to make a profit for their investors. It's quite common that they buy land and sit on it until it's profitable enough to build something. Especially if they're big, they can afford to do that for a long time.
ROBANN_88 posted...

Huh, i always thought lobbyists getting that much influence were mostly an American thing

You'd be surprised! Svenskt nringsliv spend a ton of money on lobbying, and it pays off.

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Questionmarktarius posted...

It's well known, in 'Murrica! at least, that rent controls cause severe shortages in housing supply.

Great now do data from Sweden instead

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Stop being so aggressively argumentative for no reason. - UnfairRepresent

thanks!

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Stop being so aggressively argumentative for no reason. - UnfairRepresent

Lorenzo_2003 posted...

Yes, and I am sure we could have found many American slave owners who considered it a great honor for their slaves to work the fields.

It is true that we have found clear evidence of organized, paid work tied to the building of the pyramids. That is not the same thing as saying no slaves ever worked on the pyramids. Egypt had slaves. We might never know the full extent of their involvement in Egyptian history, but Im sure we will keep looking and learning about ourselves as a whole.

Yeah we know Egypt had slaves. No one is disputing that. But to our best knowledge, slaves didn't build the pyramids. Not sure why this is a tough one to swallow

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Stop being so aggressively argumentative for no reason. - UnfairRepresent

Trickfinger posted...

googlable

it's a word don't @ me

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Really didn't expect to have people require proper references when the most trivial search string leads you to a Wikipedia entry saying that the consensus among scholars is that slaves didn't build the pyramids.

Like I get if I were making some controversial statement but when it's so easily googlable and has been the consensus for years...

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Stop being so aggressively argumentative for no reason. - UnfairRepresent

ShyOx posted...

fffs brah that's shorthand for having no evidence. Google has your back, get off your ass and post some links

If I don't have the links on hand, anyone's Google is as good as mine. I'm not here trying to convince people. If you don't believe me that's fine. I'm pointing it out as a curious piece of trivia related to the topic, I'm not using it as a central piece of some argument.

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rexcrk posted...

Source?

Was a long time ago since I saw it now but essentially they had found old graves, records and homes of the workers that were not consistent with how slaves would have been treated.

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You guys do realize that the "plot" in this series is just setup for the same punchline over and over again right?

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Stop being so aggressively argumentative for no reason. - UnfairRepresent

That slaves built the pyramids is actually a misconception that was falsified a couple decades back or so. Those were free people.

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Stop being so aggressively argumentative for no reason. - UnfairRepresent

BalanceLost posted...

They pretty much summed up the debate and the different viewpoints. I guess we dont have a hardcore pro-market rental advocate here but they would argue that market rental WILL help solve the lack of housing and it is only very attractive areas which will see a price increase.

A fun fact about this is that there's no majority among any party's voters for this kind of reform. It's entirely driven by lobbyists. And a significant majority of C voters would have preferred a collaboration with V over what we have now. People are getting pissed off and soon we'll see which party makes the most out of that.

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Rimmer_Dall posted...

The tl;dr is that our rents are super cheap because of government intervention, but as a consequence queues to actually get said apartments are very long. For bad apartments the lines are a year long, for the best apartments you often have to queue for a decade.

But again, very cheap, even with the taxes.

The debate is whether or not to let landlords set the prices and make it faster for people to find an apartment. The worry is that rent prices are going to skyrocket as a result.

This... isn't very accurate. Rents aren't super cheap right now - especially not in the big cities. They're already expensive as heck. The queues aren't long because rents are low, they're long because we're not building a lot of rental apts. Over the last 20 years, Stockholm actually lost more rentals than were built, due to reforming old rentals as buyable apts. Thirdly, the "government intervention" in this case means that rents need to be negotiated collectively with renters, rather than individually.

There is no one who seriously believes that letting landlords dictate the rents (i.e., blocking renters' rights to organize and negotiate collectively) will make the queues shorter. It's well known that rent prices are going to skyrocket. That's what the bill is about, allowing landlords to set arbitrarily high rents outside of the current system. We've also seen what happened when Finland did these exact reforms: rents skyrocketed, and now they spend tons more money in subsidies so people can afford to pay rent. Effectively, it's just a cash transaction from the state to the landlords, for no benefit.

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I get the feeling that S are trying to pin this on V as much as they can, which in my eyes is a poor strategy. That will tell voters that they're more allies to C than to renters, and I can't imagine they'll win many votes that way. I just can't help but feel that S's leadership's disconnect is far too big to survive.

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I suppose 2008 was around peak ridicule Britney era, but still

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Stop being so aggressively argumentative for no reason. - UnfairRepresent

joe40001 posted...

Ok cool, then you agree there is something valuable in a study who concludes:

No, I don't. I'm saying that this whole thing is you misconstruing and/or overestimating the conclusions of some papers you cherry-picked without understanding their contents well enough. And then refusing to acknowledge that when everyone points it out.

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joe40001 posted...

I mean you are arguing from a point of "peer reviewed meta analysis of RCTs basically can be completely ignored". Which even if you have your doubts is pretty overstating of things

No, I'm not.

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This was one of the worst things I've read relative to the reputation of the publication it's in

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And, might I add, if you were actually as information literate as you claim to be, you would understand that.

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Stop being so aggressively argumentative for no reason. - UnfairRepresent

joe40001 posted...

It's not "not effective" it is somewhere between "effective" and "inconclusively effective" and considering it's safety I do think many doctors worth a damn would recommend somebody take such a drug, because do.

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the literature you're reading that you refuse to be challenged on, and it's what makes everyone so frustrated.

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Philoktetes's shitposts have circled back to truth at this point

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Just... they could vote against her right?

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Stop being so aggressively argumentative for no reason. - UnfairRepresent

Interact with others and post good content

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Stop being so aggressively argumentative for no reason. - UnfairRepresent

Samurontai posted...

Its insane to me how leftist claim to be the moral side but will throw such a fit over not getting every policy that they want that theyll gladly elect an insane right winger to Put the liberals in their place

Wtf are you talking about? V wasn't even allowed at the negotiating table. Heck, they were specifically forbidden to be included in negotiations by the liberal side. In response, V said "fine, we'll let you govern as long as you don't move forward on this particular issue."

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Didn't some leaked military documents recently reveal that socialists are now officially considered terrorists? That would be a problem

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Stop being so aggressively argumentative for no reason. - UnfairRepresent

Was that the Flldin government that also fell?

I can see how she'd want that but, I'm not sure it would work. For all their insistence on sakpolitik, V now have a golden opportunity in an election with a focus on two of their most popular issues, market rents and vinster i vlfrden, what with healthcare being highlighted due to covid, and private schools getting more and more attention recently. There's pretty wide agreement across the entire spectrum on these issues among voters, but not among parties.

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BalanceLost posted...

That last one >_____>;;

Lol
If S are going to run on a platform of "we're not SD", they're in for a world of hurt.

Also C's latest talking point is bugging me so much. "We're the party who are willing to cooperate with the most parties" at the same time as "let's focus on sakpolitik".

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BalanceLost posted...

A SOU is a SOU and a bill is a bill though. The actual bills are often changed in different ways in order to pass through Riksdagen. We dont need to look further than the new LAS where the end result is fairly different from the SOU :)

True. But I respect the point that V is making, namely that if they waited for the bill, it would be too close to the regular election for the right-wing parties to bother with the misstroende in the first place. And hey, Lfvn even stated in his "offer" that if the parties can't reach a deal, they would go with the SOU line. Either way, I can see your point, it's just that I'm a bit too cynical to consider that even a small win for S.

And yeah, a lot rests on V not getting pinned with the blame. ...which pretty much all the big media outlets are attempting at the moment.

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BalanceLost posted...

it was a small victory to limit it to new buildings

Not sure I'd call it even that, considering that any apartment that was "majorly renovated", as well as any apartment formed by using up new space like attics, counts as new in the SOU.

As for speculation time, I would consider it quite likely that S loses votes to V after all this. I'm pretty unsure how it will affect C votes. The rest I expect to more or less follow contemporary polling. This is why I'm thinking that a new election isn't necessarily what a lot of people want. Heck, I think even SD/M/KD don't want it, because they aren't very likely to rise in popular opinion after one year of governing. What's your guess?

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ROBANN_88 posted...

I don't understand what it is about this rent reform that they're willing to die on this hill

Especially considering S were against market rent in 2018

I don't think it's just this, but Magdalena Andersson already wrote in some application for funds to the EU commission that part of Sweden's "recovery plan" after covid was these market rents in new apartments:
https://twitter.com/KarlssonMax/status/1406943233847042056
Link to the entire plan: https://www.regeringen.se/49bfc1/contentassets/dad10f1743b64c78a1c5b2d71f81a6eb/sveriges-aterhamtningsplan.pdf
I can appreciate that S are stuck between a rock and a hard place. C would probably have done what V are now doing if they didn't try to push this through. It's C that are the real "enigma" here. around 25%-30% of C's voters are actually in favor of market rents, yet mysteriously they still want to push this through at all costs. I wonder why?

Humble_Novice posted...

Leftists need to be more fucking pragmatic, and that sometimes requires swallowing one's own pride.

V allowing this govt in the first place is fucking pragmatic, considering it's an S government enacting L and C politics

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Thompson posted...

The government has been toppled, and the left recommends... the man they toppled to be the new PM?
Is this comedy?

They've been clear from the beginning that this is about one issue and one issue only: Market rents. If the current constellation abandons that particular idea (out of an agenda with 73 liberal reforms of various magnitude), they'll let the govt govern. Meanwhile S and C want market rents so bad that they would rather the govt fall than back down.

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So now the government fell. I don't have very high hopes that they'll be able to get back up. BL, do you know if MP+S+C+V have enough seats, in the off chance they drop article 44?

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Stop being so aggressively argumentative for no reason. - UnfairRepresent

We went into the local archipelago yesterday and there was a really nice cafe with a veranda but it was so incredibly hot. This heat will kill me

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Stop being so aggressively argumentative for no reason. - UnfairRepresent

Year 3 might be a bit early for parentheses but if it's rounding specifically that trips him up you could try to rephrase it as (8 - 0.12) + (7 - 0.08). Or maybe that's what you did. Not really used to working with people on the spectrum but generally speaking, when someone doesn't understand something like this, the culprit is almost always that they're missing a prerequisite piece of knowledge.

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Stop being so aggressively argumentative for no reason. - UnfairRepresent

ROBANN_88 posted...

sounds like some kind of "you can't fire me, i quit" thinking

It's somehow always V's fault that S can't manage to stay in power, as if they didn't themselves play any part in the votes they've lost in several elections in a row.

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ROBANN_88 posted...

wait, it's C that wanna do this?

i was under the impression this was an S policy, hence why they're trying to kick out Lfven

It's C who is demanding it as part of the JK. The S govt are doing it despite their platform being against it, with the justification that "it would be even worse if a right wing coalition did it". A lot of S grassroots are really pissed about it and actually happy that V are doing what they can to block it.

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Samurontai posted...

Imagine being this naive like lol

Lefties are a cancer to the democrat party

I mean, this particular situation is literally C trying to force market rents through even though 1. V promised at the beginning of J that they would not tolerate it and 2. the proposal not supported among voters of any party but yeah sure

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Kegran posted...

Also, the Boshleviks were trying to destroy them using Marxism which is a brain disease.

You're coming off as really credible

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Kegran posted...

Nazis were left wing socialists

I haven't heard that on CE since Mal_Fet ran rampant. Brings me back, what a blast from the past.

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ScazarMeltex posted...

So I'm not as familiar with the workings of Sweden's politics. Is their far right like actual Neo-Nazis like the French far right or the American Alt-Right?

The political party, like I mentioned earlier, functions as a cleaned up front behind which the more violent and obvious elements can hide with plausible deniability.

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ROBANN_88 posted...

i was thinking more about how they are now doing old SD politics that they called "abhorrent" years ago, and in this specific case, there's this thing where they had the exact opposite position a few years ago

I mean I completely agree with you. The top levels of S have been turncoats for a couple decades now, and the grass roots are getting more and more pissed off about it, resulting in worse election results every time.

Kegran posted...

No. They have issues with immigration and grenade attacks. The idea that the so-called far right party in Sweden is even right wing is kind of funny though.

They were literally founded by Nazis, and the current leadership joined when the party still marched in the streets dressed in Nazi cosplay shit. BL detailed a bunch of other entirely true things as well. Like with all fascistoid groups, they don't necessarily fit on the right-left spectrum since they'll opportunistically support whatever they want to reach their goal. But they're currently allied with the two most conservative parties in parliament, so far right isn't inaccurate.

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ROBANN_88 posted...

unlike sossarna who would never do that...

except for the times that they did

Difference is that s are steadily losing votes for it. But yeah it's a secret to nobody that they've been doing c politics for years now. That's why we're in this mess.

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Sounds like instead of patching they just replaced the whole game lmao

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Another thing to note about the Swedish far right is that they don't have any principles whatsoever. They'll spin on a fucking dime on any issue if it means they can get some piece of anti-immigrant legislation through. Famously they did that with their school politics, going overnight from advocating a state-controlled solution to literally letting private industry interest group write legislation proposals. The only principle they have is that they won't work with the left. Which isn't completely unlike their nazi role models.

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Zikten posted...

How Right is the Swedish Far Fight? Are they as bad as Trumpers? Or would they be considered more liberal than American Republicans? I know in Europe what is considered Conservative is still usually Liberal by American standards. Or that's what I've been told

The Swedish far right party the Sweden Democrats was founded by neo-nazis as an explicit intention to be a palatable, civil front. Quite recently the party leader tweeted "we will never forget about our roots", which is quite different from how he usually has tried to downplay their roots. They're getting bolder every day.

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I'm not sure I follow your reasoning. The right wing still don't have a majority, right? At most, the Far Left would be handing us an extra election. Even so, they're doing what they ran on doing and what their voters want them to, in this case stopping market rents. I feel like a lot of V voters and a fair bit of S voters are actually happy with Dadgostar's actions.

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Stop being so aggressively argumentative for no reason. - UnfairRepresent