| Topic List | |
|---|---|
|
Mr Lasastryke 02/20/12 1:24:00 PM #101: |
There is no consensus regarding the taste of vanilla ice cream compared to that of chocolate ice cream, though, so I'm not sure what point the guy tries to make.
And we were discussing music, not fighting game characters. "Chun Li is a broken character" is quite a different statement from "this music is objectively better than that music." ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
OmarsComin 02/20/12 2:39:00 PM #102: |
There is no consensus regarding the taste of vanilla ice cream compared to that of chocolate ice cream, though, so I'm not sure what point the guy tries to make.
the point is that there could be. there is a consensus that ice cream tastes better than drano. that's universal to humans who have taste buds. And we were discussing music, not fighting game characters. "Chun Li is a broken character" is quite a different statement from "this music is objectively better than that music." I think they're pretty similar. They are both based on a specific experience that only humans really have that can't be measured exactly. that's where consensus and agreement on judgment criteria come in. if we reject that as a method of objectivity, there's very little in the universe we can really be objective about. but if the entire world comes together and says "here is a list of things that makes music good" then I think it's reasonable to say that you can come to an objective conclusion about what music is good. the reality is that you will never get everyone to agree to the same criteria though, so it's only an argument for the sake of argument. we don't have a music equivalent to drano, I don't think. ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
foolm0ron 02/20/12 2:41:00 PM #103: |
b****es be hot yo
... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
the icon ownz all 02/20/12 10:44:00 PM #104: |
From: OmarsComin | #100 again, consensus is not objectivity. you'll find a lot of talk about consensus and common ground in logic and philosophy because finding a common ground is usually a good way to facilitate discussion. it is essential, in some areas, as you have to agree on the terms of the discussion, what words are used, and how. an easy way to determine whether something is objective or subjective is to determine if the subject depends on human attitudes. not the existence of humans, but our attitudes towards something. so, let's go to your examples. the argument about romance music's superiority over pop music has two key components, in terms of objectivity vs. subjectivity, as i outlined earlier. using logic, i assume you can determine that romance music has harmonic complexity (once you define what harmonic complexity is, of course). this is an epistemically objective truth, in that it is a proposition statement true independent of what one believes about the subject. then there is the value proposition based on a belief: this inherent harmonic complexity romance music possesses shows that it has more artistic merit than pop music. this is your epistemically subjective truth. (there's also an ontological objective fact, that romance and pop music exist, but they're not really relevant to the argument) that quote you highlighted from the link has a good working definition of epistemically subjective truths but has a clear misunderstanding of epistemically objective truths. s/he, despite gathering data - i.e this many people believe that this flavour is awful - is actually using an epistemically subjective truth (# of people believe x) in order to argue that another epistemically subjective truth (i believe x is better than y) is ontologically objective (x is better than y). an ontological objective fact, by definition, exists independent from human consciousness, and this example given is a perverse twist on objectivity vs. subjectivity i hope that clears some things up for you re: objective and subjective. it's pretty tricky stuff and something i worked hard at to understand. you will probably never get consensus on most of these things. but we do all live in the same universe and evolved under similar environmental pressures and can all experience things the same way. if we reject that we go into a weird area of moral relativism whoa where did this come from? saying that aesthetic is subjective, again, is not an argument for relativism, let alone moral relativism. i am appealing to reason and logic. using these tools - ontological objective/subjective facts, epistemological objective/subjective truths - you can still determine whether someone's proposition is worth considering. i highly recommend you read some john searle. he has several books which go into much greater detail on these subjects and he's a great writer. -- ICON: Can I kick it? ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
ExThaNemesis 02/20/12 11:44:00 PM #105: |
From: the icon ownz all | #104 this helps me understand what you were talking about way better. Good stuff. -- http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/ExTha/10and14.jpg "What about the lion from Lion King?" - SuperNiceDog ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
MajinZidane 02/20/12 11:49:00 PM #106: |
From: Mershaaay | #099 i watched the link you posted, the scene, and then the entire movie yesterday. thanks for that! -- Virtue - "You don't need a reason to Boko United." ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
OmarsComin 02/21/12 12:08:00 AM #107: |
I admit defeat
I might read his stuff some day. I'll be more likely to if it's buyable online in some way! ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
Seginustemple 02/21/12 12:48:00 AM #108: |
i assume you can determine that romance music has harmonic complexity (once you define what harmonic complexity is, of course). this is an epistemically objective truth,
... only in that the ontological truth of harmonic complexity must be epistemically observed in order to be apparent. Did we seriously let the 'all music and beauty is subjective' crowd win over in here again? Music is still mostly objective, it just isn't feasibly scalable at this point in time. If music were entirely subjective, any one of you monkeys could sit at a piano, hit random notes at random times and the result would necessarily be equal in quality to any pre-arranged set of notes, or what we call 'music'. But we all know that isn't true, and if you sit at a piano and try to figure out why you will eventually understand that there are objective musical rules. -- http://www.wellhappypeaceful.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/nuclear_disaster.jpg ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
Mershaaay 02/22/12 1:46:00 PM #109: |
MajinZidane posted...
From: Mershaaay | #099 This all would have been resolved by watching the link I posted i watched the link you posted, the scene, and then the entire movie yesterday. thanks for that! one of the best movies ever made -- SephirothG, channeling awesomeness from Mershiness. The Resurrection ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
|
StifledSilence 02/22/12 1:59:00 PM #110: |
Beauty is an opinion, but waffles being better than all other breakfast foods is a fact.
-- "Just drown them in maple syrup. sticky maple syrup." - Taslion ... Copied to Clipboard!
|
| Topic List |