Current Events > Why is Sabre considered the most powerful hero in Fate/Stay Night? *spoilers*

(+) Yeah! (+)

Her skills are unimpressive. Even in Fate/Zero where she had a competent mage as the master, she was outclassed by every other hero except assassin and rider. Berserker, with his master literally dying, was capable of fighting on equal terms with her even though kiritsugu was cruising along in comfort due to his sheer competence

In unlimited bladeworks, Sabre is quite clearly outclassed by Gilgamesh, Archer, Berserker, Lancer, Caster and probably even Rider if she ever had a chance to not die immediately to some bullshit

I think the tier list is as follows:

OP Broken Tier:
Archer

OP tier:
Gilgamesh
Berserker (Stay Night)

High tier:
Lancer (stay night)
Berserker (Zero)
Lancer (Zero)
Caster (Zero)

Medium tier:
Rider (Zero)
Rider (Stay Night)
Saber
Caster (Stay Night)

Low tier:
Assassin (Zero)
Assassin (Stay Night)
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Fate/Stay Night UBW spoilers:

Maybe I'm remembering wrong but IIRC it was the Saber class that was deemed generally the best for Rin, with no statements as to the class's absolute power. And in general either way it was often felt Gilgamesh was the strongest Servant though it was eventually made clear how untrue that was when Shirou beat him, leaving a Guardian like Archer as the top one.
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no way Archer is better than Gil and Herc
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KeyBlade999 posted...

Fate/Stay Night UBW spoilers:

Maybe I'm remembering wrong but IIRC it was the Saber class that was deemed generally the best for Rin, with no statements as to the class's absolute power. And in general either way it was often felt Gilgamesh was the strongest Servant though it was eventually made clear how untrue that was when Shirou beat him, leaving a Guardian like Archer as the top one.

sabre herself is considered the most powerful hero in the sabre class I believe

JRaasin posted...

no way Archer is better than Gil and Herc

Archer is a hard counter to herc and gilgamesh. unlimited bladeworks is strictly better than gate of babylon, and archers ability to replicate and improve any nobel phantasm he sees allows him to effortlessly kill herc as many times as needed. herc might be better in melee combat technically but all archer has to do is nuke him with ranged phantasms. don't forget archer has ludicrous speed, reflexes and sword skills
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Tier lists / powers ranks are stupid in Fate. The whole thing is about setting up all these rules and then goes about the whole series breaking them. Anyone who beats someone usually does through some kind of asspull.
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ChromaticAngel posted...

Tier lists / powers ranks are stupid in Fate. The whole thing is about setting up all these rules and then goes about the whole series breaking them. Anyone who beats someone usually does through some kind of asspull.

except the high tier and above who do it through sheer competence
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I don't know about being the best hero but she is best girl in the series.
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GOATTHlEF posted...

Most versatile + she can hold her own against any of them + a ohko move if she ever has an opening wooper

not really. in pretty much every fight she lost but only survived because of plot armor

against lancer in zero Lancer clearly had her beat, he was superior in melee combat but he didn't take any opportunities he had to kill her because he wanted a "fair fight"

her energy wave attack thing can be dodged easy, as proven by rider in 0. she only killed rider in stay night because of bad writing

caster and gilgamesh never took any of the many chances they had to kill her because they wanted her as a wife

she was clearly outclassed against berserker in stay night, in zero it took the prolonged competence of kiritsugu plus berserkers master being moments away from death for him to lose to her

as a hero she was pretty much complete trash, her only real benefit being that avalon or whatever was the perfect perk for kiritsugu
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Rika_Furude posted...

ChromaticAngel posted...

Tier lists / powers ranks are stupid in Fate. The whole thing is about setting up all these rules and then goes about the whole series breaking them. Anyone who beats someone usually does through some kind of asspull.

except the high tier and above who do it through sheer competence

The top servants are the ones being defeated predominantly by asspulls, not by competence. It doesn't count if Gilgamesh runs a train all over Cu Chulainn.
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the way I remember it being described was that her "stats" are really good compared to most other servants

thing is they tend to have better weapons or super moves than her so raw stats are kind of useless. That said her giant laser beam is pretty powerful but she's basically always restricted from using it for various reasons
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Neo7 posted...

I don't know about being the best hero but she is best girl in the series.

But Seiba isn't Jeanne
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kirbymuncher posted...

the way I remember it being described was that her "stats" are really good compared to most other servants

thing is they tend to have better weapons or super moves than her so raw stats are kind of useless. That said her giant laser beam is pretty powerful but she's basically always restricted from using it for various reasons

Artoria's stats are extremely good, and her NP is one of the most powerful, but that's all she is. "Really strong"

You've got folks like Achilles who are immune to anything with divinity rank less than B. Fucking almost nobody has that, including Artoria. Gilgamesh has exactly Divinity Rank B so he could beat Achilles. Altera has it in Extella but only because she has the Sword of Mars. Artoria would be able to beat Achilles through her NP, but she might need it later and won't have it when she does.
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Doesn't she have Avalon, which makes her invulnerable?
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ChromaticAngel posted...

Rika_Furude posted...

ChromaticAngel posted...

Tier lists / powers ranks are stupid in Fate. The whole thing is about setting up all these rules and then goes about the whole series breaking them. Anyone who beats someone usually does through some kind of asspull.

except the high tier and above who do it through sheer competence

The top servants are the ones being defeated predominantly by asspulls, not by competence. It doesn't count if Gilgamesh runs a train all over Cu Chulainn.

and sabre is the biggest ass puller of them all. she has no right to fight on equal terms with gilgamesh or either of the lancers and especially not the berserkers
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LightHawKnight posted...

Doesn't she have Avalon, which makes her invulnerable?

not really invulnerable, its probably a very good defensive item but i dont see it being as good as the one archer has.

it did make kiritsugu more op than he was already however
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the only one I watched was the original way backwhen, I remember Berserker being fucking ridiculous in that.

what is the order I should watch that shit, I have been meaning to give it a go but all these different names confuse me, is that fate kaleido shit with different characters even connected or are they trolling us with names like the nanatso no taizai with just girls?
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orcus_snake posted...

what is the order I should watch that shit

fate/zero -> unlimited blade works (the series, not the movie)

basically everything else that's aired atm are spinoffs. like, kaleido uses some of the same characters (though a few get weird personality changes) and some parts of the same universe but it's a sidestory thing that's doesn't slot in anywhere sequentially in the main series
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Rika_Furude posted...

LightHawKnight posted...

Doesn't she have Avalon, which makes her invulnerable?

not really invulnerable, its probably a very good defensive item but i dont see it being as good as the one archer has.

it did make kiritsugu more op than he was already however

What are you smoking to think it is weaker than Archer's Rho Aias?

From the wiki:
It is the greatest protection in the world that goes beyond defending or reflecting, completely isolating its user in a world completely separate from the regular world. The scabbard dissipates into countless tiny particles in the air and engulfs the user to become a "portable fortress" that shuts out all interference. It is the Bounded Field of the tranquil domain of fairies that keeps out all filth from the outside world, and allows nothing to harm the tranquil King that stands in the land of Avalon. The individual is shielded from all destructive interference in the physical realm, transliners from parallel worlds, and multidimensional communication as far as the sixth dimension. It is on the level of true magic, an actual true magic in itself, that transcends all magecraft, and not even the Five Magics can overcome the barrier.
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orcus_snake posted...

the only one I watched was the original way backwhen, I remember Berserker being fucking ridiculous in that.

what is the order I should watch that shit, I have been meaning to give it a go but all these different names confuse me, is that fate kaleido shit with different characters even connected or are they trolling us with names like the nanatso no taizai with just girls?

Short answer:
Fate/Zero first, Fate/Stay Night: Unlimited Blade Works (series, not movie) second. Watch the Heavens Feel movie that is coming soon as well. Don't worry about prisma illya and carnaval phantasm or whatever, they are just side stories

Longer:
Fate/Stay Night is a bit weird as a series. There's 2 main stories, the one in Fate/Zero, and the main series Fate/Stay Night. The main series is based on the visual novel which had 3 routes; Stay Night, Unlimited Blade Works, and Heavens Feel. The reader was intended to read through the routes in that order. Each route portrays the same main story, but the overall plot progression and outcome ending entirely different.
The TV series only adapt one route each. The original series being the first route, then a shitty unlimited blade works movie for the second route, then nothing until recently. Fate/Zero was made as a prequel to the VN, was far darker and so much better than the previous series and movie. The budget went through the roof as well allowing it to be the most beautifully animated anime to be released at that point.
It is its own story, and spoils some important plot elements of the main series. However, the main series spoils important plot elements of Zero, so there's a conundrum there. I still recommend Zero first since it is the best out of all of them so you want to watch that unspoiled.

Then the Unlimited Blade Works series came along. They didn't bother remaking the original, they just skipped to the second route in the VN. This series is a good adaption and worth the watch, even though. Production values are still through the roof here and I don't think the animation quality has been topped yet.

The new movie, Heavens Feel, is basically the "true path" for Fate/Stay Night, and is a sequel to Fate/Zero in a sense (the others are not). It's not out until October this year, but it's basically the finale for the series and will conclude the story of Fate/Zero in a way that Stay Night and Unlimited Blade Works do not.

The original Fate/Stay Night is meh, some cool fight scenes but it was a bad adaption. The newer stuff is far better. The Unlimited Blade Works movie is the same bad quality of the original Stay Night anime, and is even worse off since the series is the exact same story as the movie, just better in every possible way.

I heard the Illya series is good if you like anime girls being lesbians at eachother
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kirbymuncher posted...

orcus_snake posted...

what is the order I should watch that shit

fate/zero -> unlimited blade works (the series, not the movie)

basically everything else that's aired atm are spinoffs. like, kaleido uses some of the same characters (though a few get weird personality changes) and some parts of the same universe but it's a sidestory thing that's doesn't slot in anywhere sequentially in the main series

but there is also that other seres called fate stay night like the original but watched an episode that IIRC was like 40 minutes for some reason andit followed Rin summoning Archer for the first time, dunno if it is a retelling of the first series or what but none of what happened in that episode happened in the first series.

Also, the first series was boring as fuck.
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LightHawKnight posted...

Rika_Furude posted...

LightHawKnight posted...

Doesn't she have Avalon, which makes her invulnerable?

not really invulnerable, its probably a very good defensive item but i dont see it being as good as the one archer has.

it did make kiritsugu more op than he was already however

What are you smoking to think it is weaker than Archer's Rho Aias?

From the wiki:
It is the greatest protection in the world that goes beyond defending or reflecting, completely isolating its user in a world completely separate from the regular world. The scabbard dissipates into countless tiny particles in the air and engulfs the user to become a "portable fortress" that shuts out all interference. It is the Bounded Field of the tranquil domain of fairies that keeps out all filth from the outside world, and allows nothing to harm the tranquil King that stands in the land of Avalon. The individual is shielded from all destructive interference in the physical realm, transliners from parallel worlds, and multidimensional communication as far as the sixth dimension. It is on the level of true magic, an actual true magic in itself, that transcends all magecraft, and not even the Five Magics can overcome the barrier.

Because Archer is ridiculous OP and survived Lancer actually trying to kill him using it, as opposed to Sabre getting by because the opponent stops fighting.
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Rika_Furude posted...

LightHawKnight posted...

Rika_Furude posted...

LightHawKnight posted...

Doesn't she have Avalon, which makes her invulnerable?

not really invulnerable, its probably a very good defensive item but i dont see it being as good as the one archer has.

it did make kiritsugu more op than he was already however

What are you smoking to think it is weaker than Archer's Rho Aias?

From the wiki:
It is the greatest protection in the world that goes beyond defending or reflecting, completely isolating its user in a world completely separate from the regular world. The scabbard dissipates into countless tiny particles in the air and engulfs the user to become a "portable fortress" that shuts out all interference. It is the Bounded Field of the tranquil domain of fairies that keeps out all filth from the outside world, and allows nothing to harm the tranquil King that stands in the land of Avalon. The individual is shielded from all destructive interference in the physical realm, transliners from parallel worlds, and multidimensional communication as far as the sixth dimension. It is on the level of true magic, an actual true magic in itself, that transcends all magecraft, and not even the Five Magics can overcome the barrier.

Because Archer is ridiculous OP and survived Lancer actually trying to kill him using it, as opposed to Sabre getting by because the opponent stops fighting.

You do know she doesn't use Avalon against Lancer right? It even stops Ea. Which Archer can't do anything about, he can only defeat Gilgamesh before he uses it.
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LightHawKnight posted...

he can only defeat Gilgamesh before he uses it.

which is why he's better than sabre because she isn't capable of a feat like that
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Rika_Furude posted...

LightHawKnight posted...

he can only defeat Gilgamesh before he uses it.

which is why he's better than sabre because she isn't capable of a feat like that

Which the only reason Archer can do if Gilgamesh doesn't use Ea right away, if he does, no one can take the hit other than Saber. And even then for Archer to beat Gilgamesh it wouldn't work, since the only reason Shiro ever does it is cause Gilgamesh doesn't consider him worth using Ea on till the last moment.
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LightHawKnight posted...

Which the only reason Archer can do if Gilgamesh doesn't use Ea right away

which will be every time due to archers superior speed and powerful ranged attacks
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orcus_snake posted...

but there is also that other seres called fate stay night like the original but watched an episode that IIRC was like 40 minutes for some reason andit followed Rin summoning Archer for the first time, dunno if it is a retelling of the first series or what but none of what happened in that episode happened in the first series.

ok so a bit more backstory then

fate stay night started out as a visual novel (if you're not familiar with this, think digital choose your own adventure book with art and bgm and stuff) that had 3 distinct routes: Fate, Unlimited Blade Works, and Heaven's Feel. They had to be read in that order but were not sequential... they're more like asking "what if X event had happened differently near the start of the story?"

The Fate route got an anime adaptaion years ago, I think 2006? It was done by a not great studio and also tried to cram elements from the other routes into it which made it a bit of a mess. Most people consider it pretty bad and would recommend not watching it.

Fate/Zero was a novel written later as a prequel to the VN. It was written by a different guy and the difference in tone really shows. It got an anime adaptation that's generally considered pretty good.

More recently, unlimited blade works got an adaptation. Despite it being the second route in the VN, the adaptation changed up a bit of stuff to make it accessible/understandable to people who's only exposure to the series was the fate/zero anime. This is why people will generally suggest watching fate/zero first.

I'm not totally sure about the history and background of the various spinoffs but they aren't really part of the main chronology and I'd say if you want to look into them wait until you've finished the rest of the series so you can catch the various references they make to it
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You guys clearly need a board for this.
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Rika_Furude posted...

LightHawKnight posted...

Which the only reason Archer can do if Gilgamesh doesn't use Ea right away

which will be every time due to archers superior speed and powerful ranged attacks

Gilgamesh is usually an archer himself. Saying he auto loses against Nameless or any other archer is pure nonsense.
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Rika_Furude posted...

LightHawKnight posted...

he can only defeat Gilgamesh before he uses it.

which is why he's better than sabre because she isn't capable of a feat like that

Artoria's stats are equal to or better than Gilgamesh with just two exceptions. Gilgamesh has divinity ranks and he has much better Noble Phantasms.
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ChromaticAngel posted...

Rika_Furude posted...

LightHawKnight posted...

Which the only reason Archer can do if Gilgamesh doesn't use Ea right away

which will be every time due to archers superior speed and powerful ranged attacks

Gilgamesh is usually an archer himself. Saying he auto loses against Nameless or any other archer is pure nonsense.

Gilgamesh is only an archer because of gate of babylon. Emiya is a true archer, and ubw is strictly more powerful than gate of babylon
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ChromaticAngel posted...

Rika_Furude posted...

LightHawKnight posted...

he can only defeat Gilgamesh before he uses it.

which is why he's better than sabre because she isn't capable of a feat like that

Artoria's stats are equal to or better than Gilgamesh with just two exceptions. Gilgamesh has divinity ranks and he has much better Noble Phantasms.

Whos artoria
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I see, so since I already watched the 2006 one I shoudl watch zero for the backstory and then Unlimited blade for the alternate route for the game as well as any crap they that might reference zero, gotcha.
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Rika_Furude posted...

Gilgamesh is only an archer because of gate of babylon. Emiya is a true archer, and ubw is strictly more powerful than gate of babylon

He's an archer because that's how he's summoned as that's the best way to make him effective in combat. He gets summoned as a different class at one point and is totally worthless.

A single hit of Gate of Babylon is not actually a big deal, but you're actually getting hit by like hundreds of them at once and he can just spam them over and over again. That's why Gilgamesh's Noble Phantasm is better.

Rika_Furude posted...

Whos artoria

Artoria Pendragon. That's usually who people are talking about when they say "Saber"

Saber can refer to all kinds of different people. Artoria, Nero, Altera, Gawain, etc.

The reason people don't usually call them by their names is because those are their true names which have power, so they use their class to refer to them. In Artoria's case, it's Saber.
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IIRC Saber class is less about overall power and more about personality mixed with the fact that they usually come from a time where magic and swordsmanship was more commonplace and therefore they'd have higher magic and melee stats to justify it. It's kinda like why Stay/Night Archer uses swords instead of a bow

Nero Saber (who is best Saber) for instance is kinda fragile and vain af, but hits hard and has an ultimate that buffs her stats to make up for it.
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thompsontalker7 posted...

IIRC Saber class is less about overall power and more about personality mixed with the fact that they usually come from a time where magic and swordsmanship was more commonplace and therefore they'd have higher magic and melee stats to justify it. It's kinda like why Stay/Night Archer uses swords instead of a bow

Nero Saber (who is best Saber) for instance is kinda fragile and vain af, but hits hard and has an ultimate that buffs her stats to make up for it.

Nameless actually has and uses a bow, he just fights predominantly with the two swords. He's the dude that Sakurai ripped off to make Pit in Smash Bros.
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I've only watched Fate/Zero and Sabré seemed weak af in it. I'm still not over Rider's death either. My man crush for years to come.
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TC they literally say Gil is the most powerful thing in both stories. Didn't Nasu or someone else involved say he would beat every other hero simultaneously in a single day if he was willing to use his full power? As far as I know Archer only can win because Gil's arrogance is stronger than reality and he will never acknowledge him.
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Rika_Furude posted...

LightHawKnight posted...

Which the only reason Archer can do if Gilgamesh doesn't use Ea right away

which will be every time due to archers superior speed and powerful ranged attacks

Gilgamesh has better stats than Archer and is also an Archer, so if he actually chose to only use Ea, no one can beat him, the only person that could survive is Saber with Avalon, the only thing that can actually block Ea.
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ChromaticAngel posted...

Tier lists / powers ranks are stupid in Fate. The whole thing is about setting up all these rules and then goes about the whole series breaking them. Anyone who beats someone usually does through some kind of asspull.

The UBW anime is still full of bullshit, but the back half with how it changed the last two Shirou fights was really good.
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whats stopping archer from just cloning and improving avalon?
don't forget archer can just nuke gilgamesh with exploding phantasm arrows and shit from a distance

i didn't read the vn so i dont understand the stats things. can't archer just copy any nobel phantasm that isn't an ability, improve it, and then turn it into an exploding arrow or something?

i don't see how anyone can compete with archer unless he actually lets them fight back
gilgamesh can't pull out ea and fire it in the time archer can kill him
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also who are the characters in the background of the type moon wiki
http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/TYPE-MOON_Wiki
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http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140528000850/typemoon/images/1/1f/Background.jpg ?

left to right is caren, sakura, rin, saber, bazett, avenger

the 3 you probably don't recognize are from fate/hollow ataraxia which is some weird semi-sequel semi-spinoff to the original f/sn VN. I've heard its main story is pretty good but I gave up on it partway through since it had way too many filler scenes :/
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Rika_Furude posted...

whats stopping archer from just cloning and improving avalon?
don't forget archer can just nuke gilgamesh with exploding phantasm arrows and shit from a distance

i didn't read the vn so i dont understand the stats things. can't archer just copy any nobel phantasm that isn't an ability, improve it, and then turn it into an exploding arrow or something?

i don't see how anyone can compete with archer unless he actually lets them fight back
gilgamesh can't pull out ea and fire it in the time archer can kill him

Any copy he makes is one grade lower. The updside to this compared to the Gate of Babylon is that he has proficiency with the weapons he creates and is able to change them to suit his needs. Also, anything that he copies that is not a sword, takes incredible amounts of mana. Specially defensive equipment like shields and armor.
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