Current Events > Is Healthcare a right and should every citizen be forced to pay into it

(+) Yeah! (+)

Asherlee10 posted...

Barenziah Boy Toy posted...

krazychao5 posted...

A lot of places cannot drink the water straight from the tap.

Because the local government there sucks/ under-funded.

I was reading this morning that many homes are possibly going into foreclosure because of unpaid water bills in Flint. I didn't read the full story, but at first glance that seems completely ridiculous.

Homes in Illinois are going into foreclosure because people can't afford the $10,000 per year in property taxes, too. That's the problem with thinking that people need to pay for other people's "basic rights." There's a limit, and once that limit is reached the entire system begins to collapse.
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meingott posted...

Homes in Illinois are going into foreclosure because people can't afford the $10,000 per year in property taxes, too. That's the problem with thinking that people need to pay for other people's "basic rights." There's a limit, and once that limit is reached the entire system begins to collapse.

If you could afford a $370k house but not the taxes, you couldn't afford a $370k house.
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Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

meingott posted...

Homes in Illinois are going into foreclosure because people can't afford the $10,000 per year in property taxes, too. That's the problem with thinking that people need to pay for other people's "basic rights." There's a limit, and once that limit is reached the entire system begins to collapse.

If you could afford a $370k house but not the taxes, you couldn't afford a $370k house.

That's why Illinois is leaking productive taxpayers, to Florida apparently.

Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

KingCrabCake posted...

Im asking you a question...how does paying for someones hospital visits better my life.

A rising tide raises all ships. If you don't see that you're inexorably economically entangled with the rest of the country, I can't help you.

Even ignoring that, if nothing else, herd immunity. Sure, you're not going to catch a broken arm (unless I get it my way) but you could see how for example, govt. provided vaccines would help ensure you don't get the flu because there will be less sick people running around. Right?

edit: Do you just accept that there is some* type of medical care that would be best distributed "for free"?

So you cant explain it
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Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

meingott posted...

Homes in Illinois are going into foreclosure because people can't afford the $10,000 per year in property taxes, too. That's the problem with thinking that people need to pay for other people's "basic rights." There's a limit, and once that limit is reached the entire system begins to collapse.

If you could afford a $370k house but not the taxes, you couldn't afford a $370k house.

There are homes that cost $200,000 that have $8,500+ in property taxes per year. Maybe next time you can do some research before talking out of your ass.

Edit: Not to mention that there are homes that were affordable before the property taxes went up 200% or 300% in a single year. Welcome to Illinois.
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Questionmarktarius posted...

Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

meingott posted...

Homes in Illinois are going into foreclosure because people can't afford the $10,000 per year in property taxes, too. That's the problem with thinking that people need to pay for other people's "basic rights." There's a limit, and once that limit is reached the entire system begins to collapse.

If you could afford a $370k house but not the taxes, you couldn't afford a $370k house.

That's why Illinois is leaking productive taxpayers, to Florida apparently.

Yeah, I don't plan on staying in Illinois long. Whatever property I own when I leave will be filled with tenants who will pay the property taxes for me.
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There are homes that cost $200,000 that have $8,500+ in property taxes per year. Maybe next time you can do some research before talking out of your ass.

I did. First google result;

The state of Illinois has the second highest property taxes in the country. The statewide average effective tax rate is 2.13%, nearly double the national average.

Where are you getting >4%? I mean, I'm not claiming to be a fucking expert, which county, city, municipality, etc


Now are you going to source a single fucking claim?
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Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

There are homes that cost $200,000 that have $8,500+ in property taxes per year. Maybe next time you can do some research before talking out of your ass.

I did. First google result;

The state of Illinois has the second highest property taxes in the country. The statewide average effective tax rate is 2.13%, nearly double the national average.

Where are you getting >4%? I mean, I'm not claiming to be a fucking expert, which county, city, municipality, etc


Now are you going to source a single fucking claim?

That average rate is brought down by the homes that are in farther out in the countryside. There are a lot of small homes with insane property taxes. It's not a secret, you can read all about the situation via simple google searches.

https://www.illinoispolicy.org/story/home-is-where-the-hurt-is-how-property-taxes-are-crushing-illinois-middle-class/
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I'm not trying to argue that their taxes are reasonable but I'd like to see where they're getting the numbers and why, instead of just relying on a "news story" from a conservative thinktank site.

I can't find anything on why they'd actually be paying 4%. At face value it looks like this is just an assertion by libertarian propaganda site.


I mean fuck, the story starts with them then goes into playing the tiniest violin for a hotel owner. . .

Also

meingott posted...

: Not to mention that there are homes that were affordable before the property taxes went up 200% or 300% in a single year.

This never happened.

residential property taxes have grown 3.3 times faster is not a 300% growth.
Where the fuck did you get the info on that claim?
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you can use zillow to see how property taxes increased over the last ten years. you can find homes that saw a 200% or higher increase in property tax owed in a single year. go research the market.
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No, source your fucking claim.

Also, property taxes are associated with the value of the property. That means that the taxes themselves aren't necessarily causing it, the fucking house market is. Probably because of the recovery.
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Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

No, source your f***ing claim.

Fuck off, you keyboard warrior. I'm not going to bring the fork to your mouth. This is not a debate forum or an exchange. It's a conversation. I'm not going to waste time explaining the Chicago or Illinois market to someone who waves away the sources that were already provided as if saying "libertarian thinktanks" disproves what they say about the market.

Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

Also, property taxes are associated with the value of the property. That means that the taxes themselves aren't necessarily causing it, the f***ing house market is. Probably because of the recovery.

The cause is irrelevant - the point was that property taxes are so high that people are losing their homes as a result. Even if they were previously able to afford the homes. Your keyboard warrior response was to say "herp DERP they shouldn't have bought a 370k home they can't afford" even though homes that are far less expensive than that also have insanely high (and growing) property taxes per year.

Just stop posting, you have no idea what you're talking about on this one.
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Seriously, how dense do you have to be to think that if someone doesn't entertain your demand for sources at every turn....that you've won some debate as if this is a debate? Someone said something about zillow - so stop shitposting for a second and go poke around in zillow. I'm not going to baby you, this isn't some PhD dissertation defense where we have to source everything OR ELSE. Who gives a fuck if you think you've won some stupid debate? It doesn't change what people in Illinois already know and see. I really can't care less if you're unhappy.
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I'd rather my healthcare not be influenced by profit, so I'd be up for it being handled by the government.
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Yes I think taxes should go towards universal healthcare.
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Sad_Face posted...

I'd rather my healthcare not be influenced by profit, so I'd be up for it being handled by the government.

Meanwhile, in the hypothetical future:
"Americare administrators receives $2.5M in bonuses, despite financial scandal"

meingott posted...

The cause is irrelevant - the point was that property taxes are so high

. . .

What?
What the fuck is wrong with you? If the cause (the property being fucking absurdly expensive) is irrelevant, how can you determine that it's the taxes that are too high?
Holy fucking Jesus you just won gold in the mental gymnastics.
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Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

meingott posted...

The cause is irrelevant - the point was that property taxes are so high

. . .

What?
What the fuck is wrong with you? If the cause (the property being fucking absurdly expensive) is irrelevant, how can you determine that it's the taxes that are too high?
Holy fucking Jesus you just won gold in the mental gymnastics.

You're pretty fucking illiterate today, dude. Read my first post in this topic and your response. The point was that people are being taxed out of their homes. In other words, taxing people more to pay for goodies is not the sustainable path to anything, as evidenced by Illinois.

It is irrelevant what reason there is for tax increases. What is relevant to what I said is that it is not sustainable and that tax increases are not the answer to everything. You could make universal healthcare the law and then say "well, taxes went up because we need to pay for healthcare in the community hospitals!" but that wouldn't answer whether or not the taxes are too high. When people are literally losing their homes because their tax obligation went up 100% or 200% or 250% in a single year, that's a problem. This is happening even when property is not "absurdly expensive"
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If you buy a $50k shack and the value raised to $200k, and now you can't afford the taxes, sell it and pocket the profits. And buy a new, affordable house. This scenario plays out the same regardless of the tax rate (sans 0%). If they can only* afford .05% before the value increases, they're not going to be able to afford .05% when it's $200k. So my question is, are you saying it should be 0% or the property tax should be locked in at the value upon purchase?
Those are your only options that don't potentially result in them "losing their house." (Pocketing an absurd profit.)
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You're being ignorant. There are houses that have the same value, yet their property tax increased. People can't just pick up and move, dude. There are people who paid off their house or who intend to pay it off and live there forever. They're trying to have a home, not pick up and leave when your worldview shafts them.

Property values don't always need to go up in order for taxes to go up. And property values can appear to go up, whenever the entities that be want to raise the property taxes.

The property tax being 0% or locked in at the value upon purchase are both better options than the current crock of shit we're dealing with.

And have you ever fucking sold a home? You don't pocket an absurd profit, dude. No way. You have to relocate, which costs money. There are likely costs and fees associated with selling and buying something else. You might make some money, but at the expense of having to move and having to start over. And that's if you can even sell. Some people can't sell, and end up losing their home.
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Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

meingott posted...

The property tax being 0% or locked in at the value upon purchase are both better options than the current crock of shit we're dealing with.

You know what the best option is? Get rid of their moronic flat tax. That's why they're stuck fucking people over on property taxes.

At least now you're no longer being a keyboard warrior. I accept your apology.
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meingott posted...

Property values don't always need to go up in order for taxes to go up. And property values can appear to go up, whenever the entities that be want to raise the property taxes.

Most states have legislation that limits the amount that your homes assessed value can increase, limits the amount the nominal rate can go up, or limits the total increase in your tax burden - or all three

One thing this doesn't impact, though, are local millage increases for things like schools and roads. These aren't covered because they are earmarked for particular reasons, not part of general revenue. Illinois also has a lot of TIF districts that I don't think are covered by this, but I'm not 100% sure because they don't really exist in Arkansas.
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Balrog0 posted...

meingott posted...

Property values don't always need to go up in order for taxes to go up. And property values can appear to go up, whenever the entities that be want to raise the property taxes.

Most states have legislation that limits the amount that your homes assessed value can increase, limits the amount the nominal rate can go up, or limits the total increase in your tax burden - or all three

One thing this doesn't impact, though, are local millage increases for things like schools and roads. These aren't covered because they are earmarked for particular reasons, not part of general revenue. Illinois also has a lot of TIF districts that I don't think are covered by this, but I'm not 100% sure because they don't really exist in Arkansas.

Home assessments can be arbitrary. There is no hard rule that guarantees that assessments will be fair. A county can arbitrarily start assessing homes at a higher value if they want more tax income. There have been years where property values barely went up (or lost value) and assessments still increased.
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Yes we need more government in control of more of our lives. That will work out.
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KingCrabCake posted...

Im asking you a question...how does paying for someones hospital visits better my life. Sorry for going to the extreme

You could be paying to contain a possible contagion outbreak

You could be paying for an important contributor to society to be back to contributing sooner

You could be stopping a drug addicts addiction and reduce the effect of drug dealers and cartels

You could be saving the life of a child who goes on to do great things
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No, and no.

HypnoCoosh posted...

Yes we need more government in control of more of our lives. That will work out.

Looking at access to health care as "control" is such a demented view of the world.
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