Current Events > 1st grader sent to principal's office for misgendering another student

(+) Yeah! (+)

s0nicfan posted...

What? There's no slippery slope.

s0nicfan posted...

Imagine if we started advocating for immediate hormone therapy at that age because it "helps transition."

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s0nicfan posted...

Anyone that's not completely insane would choose the former because it does far, FAR less harm.

the rate of harm might be significantly lower, but the magnitude of harm is infinitely higher.
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Medussa posted...

s0nicfan posted...

Anyone that's not completely insane would choose the former because it does far, FAR less harm.

the rate of harm might be significantly lower, but the magnitude of harm is infinitely higher.

You can't prove that. You can claim that there's a 40% suicide rate among that 2% if they aren't given the opportunity to transition (Assuming this is the worst magnitude of harm). There's no stat on what the suicide rate is for people improperly transitioned.

If we had 5000 people, then 2% would be 10 trans kids, and 4 of them would kill themselves for not transitioning.
At 40% for being falsely transitioned (assuming parity with suicide rate for trans people), you'd have 1996 dead kids. To match those 4 kids you'd need to have a suicide rate of 0.001% among people falsely transitioned which is far below the REGULAR suicide rate. There is NO situation where your side of this argument comes off as better, both in frequency AND magnitude.

tl;dr: In the spirit of "do as little harm as possible", the ONLY safe move is completely avoiding transition until the kids are outside of that "adjustment" period. Even if you had a way of accurately testing which kids are in this "temporary" state, you'd need near 100% accuracy for it to even have the possibility of being as good as playing it safe and transitioning nobody. The math just isn't there.
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Medussa posted...

darkjedilink posted...

Medussa posted...

there is no delusion. trans people, including kids, know who they are.

How can you say that, when at least 4 in 5, and some estimates say almost 98% grow out of it?

That suggests that they likely aren't trans.

that goes back to my issues with the methodology. they aren't just counting kids who say they're trans. they're also counting any kid who shows any gender non-conforming behavior. those kids were never trans in the first place, and are only being counted in order to dupe people like you into thinking the actual trans kids should get the help and respect they deserve.

the kids who do say they are trans at 4, and still do at 5, and still do at 6 don't stop saying they are at 13, or 18.

and the ultimate issue is, there is no harm is believing the kids who say they are trans. nothing at that age is permanent. the only risk is a few embarrassing memories.

but none of that is relevant to this point. stop calling trans people delusional. that word has a meaning, and it simply doesn't apply to us. we are fully, painfully, aware of our situations.

Actually, history is replete with the harm caused by letting people think their delusion is real.

And, yes, looking at your peniswhen you have XY chromosomes and saying 'that's supposed to be a vagina' is a delusion.
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get off your hypothetical. it's nonsense. nobody is advocating for chemical transition before puberty at the very earliest, usually are almost always just delaying drugs. and even then, the kids who get them at that age have been consistently saying they're trans, some of them for a decade.
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darkjedilink posted...

delusion

shut the fuck up. if you can't even do the smallest bit of learning on a subject, just stop talking about it.
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serious question to both of you.

what do you think actually happens when a 5 year old says they're trans? a 13 year old?
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eston posted...

Oh no, a child was sent to the office
Clearly this is the end of days

shockthemonkey posted...

I remember in elementary school, a bully got sent to the principal's office because he referred to a boy with feminine pronouns and called him a girl. Not really any different.

so why is this a thread?
fair next?

Medussa posted...

serious question to both of you.

what do you think actually happens when a 5 year old says they're trans? a 13 year old?

that is not how it happens
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Medussa posted...

get off your hypothetical. it's nonsense. nobody is advocating for chemical transition before puberty at the very earliest, usually are almost always just delaying drugs. and even then, the kids who get them at that age have been consistently saying they're trans, some of them for a decade.

No, but you ARE advocating for letting these kids live in a fantasy world for a decade knowing that 98% of them are going to grow out of it. A decade of development where society would actively foster this idea that they're not what they are. Are you arguing that there's no harm in this? Or even that the harm administered to that 98% is somehow less than the potential impact to the 2%?


EDIT:
Medussa posted...

serious question to both of you.

what do you think actually happens when a 5 year old says they're trans? a 13 year old?

I can't answer that until you provide context. Do you want me to tell you what happens today, or do you want me to tell you what I think would happen in a world where we unequivocally accept that being trans is something to be embraced and not treated?
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Medussa posted...

darkjedilink posted...

delusion

shut the fuck up. if you can't even do the smallest bit of learning on a subject, just stop talking about it.

I've looked at actual scientific study, and literally none of it supports your position.
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Fuck that lame ass school and it's bullshit.
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s0nicfan posted...

I can't answer that until you provide context. Do you want me to tell you what happens today, or do you want me to tell you what I think would happen in a world where we unequivocally accept that being trans is something to be embraced and not treated?

why not both. but the question itself suggests you still don't understand. it's entirely possible to accept people being trans and still treat them.

s0nicfan posted...

No, but you ARE advocating for letting these kids live in a fantasy world for a decade knowing that 98% of them are going to grow out of it. A decade of development where society would actively foster this idea that they're not what they are. Are you arguing that there's no harm in this? Or even that the harm administered to that 98% is somehow less than the potential impact to the 2%?

no. if they're saying they're trans for a decade, they aren't going to grow out of it but it's funny you're so against such a situation for the ones who might grow out of it, since it's exactly the situation you expect trans kids to endure
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darkjedilink posted...

I've looked at actual scientific study, and literally none of it supports your position.

and until you actually cite it, you are doing nothing but embarrassing yourself.
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Trump 2020 gg ez
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Medussa posted...

no. if they're saying they're trans for a decade, they aren't going to grow out of it but it's funny you're so against such a situation for the ones who might grow out of it, since it's exactly the situation you expect trans kids to endure

As long as we can't tell with certainty which trans kids are and aren't going to grow out of it, that's absolutely what I'm saying: that if I had to pick between 98 kids and 2 kids, I'm going to pick the 98 every single time. I'm sorry if that bothers you, but right now that's just the path of least harm. If technology or science changes and you can tell one from another, I'll gladly revise that belief. Until then, I'm not going to risk an entire generation of children in some sort of social experiment to save 0.8% of kids. (that's 40% of 2%. If we take 40% of the actual number of trans kids which is probably closer to 0.3%, that number becomes 0.12%

EDIT: To answer your current question, as I understand it the 5 year old is probably ignored, maybe given therapy to explore those statements. The 13 year old is probably given extensive therapy to determine if they really are trans and at best given drugs to delay puberty until you can evaluate what path is most effective for treating their disorder. This is in a climate of extreme skepticism and with science not yet having ruled 100% of the matter. It works, because we're extremely guarded as to whether we're really helping these kids or just minimizing harm.
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