Board 8 > The first topic purged, but I beat The Last of Us.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Thank you to all the Board 8ers who recommended I stay the course and complete it.

I posted my original topic after I had just experienced Tess's departure, and right before Bill's introduction. You guys were right - the game did ramp up enough to keep me invested. I think part of the reason I warmed up to it is because I enjoyed the camaraderie of Bill, Henry & Sam, and Tommy. They were all at least a little interesting and relatable, whereas Tess was just a generic no-nonsense hardass type, so I didn't much care about the part of the story where she was the third wheel.

That said, it was Ellie and Joel that most kept me playing (I imagine that's the case for many people), and though my gaming sample size is small these past few years, I'd say Naughty Dog hit a new milestone for depicting a relationship between two characters in a way that felt both gripping and organic. Commendable stuff there.

Buuuut despite the emotional weight of the characters/story, I still didn't dig the gameplay. There were at least a few instances where I'd run into another group of hunters or infected and think "god can we just move on." I generally saw combat as a chore to get to the next bit of story/dialogue/exploration/crafting, and that's probably why I won't be replaying this. And I can't imagine ever touching the multiplayer. I guess fighting bloaters was my favorite, but there are like five in the game sooo

All in all, still quite glad I played this! The story and characters won't leave me for a while, even though I found the gameplay disappointing.

Any spoiler-free thoughts on Left Behind? I'll probably start that this evening.
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Based on what you said about the main game, Left Behind will probably be up your alley.
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Glad you liked it! I loved it. I also had a pretty good grasp of the combat to the point where I removed the special vision ability to increase the difficulty. I greatly enjoyed employing different tactics, or just smashing guys with bricks. And using Ellie.

Left Behind is really good DLC. I think you'll like it.
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What are your thoughts on the ending?

Did you enjoy the fight with David at the end? I think that's his name.
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Left Behind has very little combat. You will probably like it
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Menji posted...

What are your thoughts on the ending?

Liked it. I thought it was a great ending for a story that clearly depicted Joel as psychologically flawed, selfish, and not a good person. During flavor dialogue, he admitted to killing (probably many) innocent people, and we see him carrying out executions without remorse multiple times. He bottles up his feelings about Sarah, his wife, and Tess, and only begins to open up to Ellie after months traveling together. Joel and Ellie's relationship was built up very well, but the only true moment of tenderness was after her near-rape, when his paternal instincts kick in and he consoles her.

He's also really hot-headed and loses his mind the moment he hears a word of disagreement (I thought he was a total douchebag when initially talking to his brother in Wyoming). To that end, the huge lie to Ellie is very fitting for his character, imo.

Although I did wonder if I missed some bonus scenes because the ending is really short. I don't mind that, but are there any bonus scenes or anything for gathering all the collectibles? I assumed that at least gathering all Ellie's comics would unlock something...

Menji posted...

Did you enjoy the fight with David at the end? I think that's his name.

Yep! That was one of my favorite moments of the game. I'll be honest - at first, I had no idea what to do. I thought I just needed to wait him out until the whole restaurant burned and/or Joel arrived. It wasn't until several minutes of sneaking that I realized I was supposed to take him out myself. It was probably my favorite part of Winter, though I'm not sure if I enjoyed Winter quite as much as the people who were lauding it in the last topic.
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no that's all you get

(ending sucks)
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Also, do a lot of people speculate that Ellie knew he was lying, and just went along with it because... what the fuck do either of them do about it at that point?
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Ellie probably doesn't ask if she doesn't at least suspect he's lying but she chooses to just let it go
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good job sticking it out and getting through to the end. I'm glad you were able to get some enjoyment out of it!
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How would you rank the seasons & characters?
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hey stp
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MariaTaylor posted...

good job sticking it out and getting through to the end. I'm glad you were able to get some enjoyment out of it!

Yeah, glad I did. It seems to be one of the single-player games that gets the most discussion from the past few years, so I'm glad I can participate now.

Peridiam posted...

How would you rank the seasons & characters?

Ellie and Joel are the top two for sure. Ellie is the most likable, but it seems like Joel is the most fleshed out. I also liked Tommy, Henry, and Sam because the brotherhood storylines were done well. I wish they would have given us one subtle scene where Joel draws a parallel between Sam and his own younger brother.

As for season - it's very hard to say. More than half the game takes place in Summer, including the entire sections with Tess, Bill, and Henry/Sam. So Summer has sheer size to its credit, but it also has setpieces that nearly made me quit, so who knows. Winter had the highest points emotionally, but I have never been a fan of that mechanic where a game lets you build up your arsenal/strength for 15 hours then takes it away in a plot twist (story-driven games love that shit). So I wasn't a HUGE fan of playing with Ellie with her limited inventory, and I also felt that I never had a moment to chill and explore in Winter. It was almost too tense, with the contest feeling of disorientation in that snowstorm. I loved the first half of Spring in the outdoors; that was maybe the prettiest part of the game to me, and the fight at the end (TWO BLOATERS) was actually fun. The grand finale inside the hospital was kinda meh.

Honestly, my favorite might be Fall. Wyoming and Colorado were both beautiful, and the chapter had a great blending of story and fun gameplay. Also, finally a magnum.
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CaptainOfCrush posted...

that clearly depicted Joel as psychologically flawed, selfish, and not a good person. During flavor dialogue, he admitted to killing (probably many) innocent people, and we see him carrying out executions without remorse multiple times. He bottles up his feelings about Sarah, his wife, and Tess, and only begins to open up to Ellie after months traveling together. Joel and Ellie's relationship was built up very well, but the only true moment of tenderness was after her near-rape, when his paternal instincts kick in and he consoles her.

He's also really hot-headed and loses his mind the moment he hears a word of disagreement (I thought he was a total douchebag when initially talking to his brother in Wyoming). To that end, the huge lie to Ellie is very fitting for his character, imo.

glad to see that you understood it
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CaptainOfCrush posted...

Also, do a lot of people speculate that Ellie knew he was lying, and just went along with it because... what the fuck do either of them do about it at that point?

this is what I think

IMO, Joel and Ellie are practically father and daughter by the end of the game. Obviously not, but they have a bond that's similar. If Ellie doesn't have proof that he's lying, she's fine believing it even though I'm sure she has a very solid idea of how truthful that "I swear" was. That's the last person she's got left, so what's wrong with believing a lie? After Riley, then Tess, then Marlene, she doesn't have much else of a choice. Joel is what she keeps fighting for.

And Joel isn't gonna tell her the truth because he's just as much of a bad guy as most of the other characters in the game. IMO, there is no good guy in The Last of Us except for Ellie. Everyone is evil in that world. How could you not be? It's kill or be killed, and even Ellie kills to survive, but I think in the end she wanted what was best for humanity. Joel just wanted what was best for himself. He's not gonna let Ellie die under any circumstance because that's what he keeps fighting for at this point. If it takes robbing humanity of the cure, killing a big chunk of what was left of the fireflies, and lying to Ellie, he's gonna keep her.

So if you ask me, you said it really well. She knows, but what the hell would they do? Leave each other? What would they keep fighting for then?

When TLOU Pt. 2 comes out, I really hope this is a dynamic that they continually explore and that they don't forget about. There's a really uncomfortable tension between the two in that last scene, and it's because you get the feeling that the relationship has started to shift into selfish dependence, at least for Joel. I view Joel through the lens of "any action he takes, he doesn't consider any other person but himself." Maybe he doesn't really care so much that Ellie is kind of his new daughter and he doesn't actually love her unconditionally like a father would, maybe he just cares that he now has a replacement for Sarah.

I'm sure I'll love pt. 2 anyways, but I think this is definitely the obvious lead that needs to be followed.
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Oh before I forget, Ish FTW

His story was one of my favorites.
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Have you checked out the trailers for part 2?
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Finished Left Behind, and yeah I liked it. They did a beautiful job showing us Ellie and Riley's friendship. I'm very impressed at how "not corny" Naughty Dog made this game. The Joel sections won't be as memorable, but pitting hunters and infected against each other was maybe the funnest thing I've done with this game's combat. I don't recall that option existing in the main game, because human and infected enemies always seemed separated.

voltch posted...

Have you checked out the trailers for part 2?

Nope, didn't know there was a part two, though I'll check now. Assuming it's a continuation of Joel and Ellie's story, I'm not sure how I feel about it. If nothing else, TLoU was a very self-contained experience; I worry a sequel might ruin what made these characters special.
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Play online
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CaptainOfCrush posted...

Also, do a lot of people speculate that Ellie knew he was lying, and just went along with it because... what the fuck do either of them do about it at that point?

She 100% knew he was lying. It's one of those endings like Inception where it pretends to be ambiguous cuz it's fun drama but it's actually super concrete.
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CaptainOfCrush posted...

If nothing else, TLoU was a very self-contained experience; I worry a sequel might ruin what made these characters special.

I see this said often, but I don't think I really agree with it. With the way the game ended, I think I'd rather they make a sequel instead of forcing me to keep this bad taste in my mouth forever.
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What did you not like about the ending? I'm getting into spoiler territory here so

My money was on Joel dying at first, but to me, this was a great way to end it with both of them alive while also staying true to the world we were given, which isn't one of happy endings. I probably wouldn't have enjoyed an ending where Ellie can provide the makings of a cure with blood samples and then live happily with Joel because it would feel contrary to the tone and brutality of the whole game.
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That ending is a major reason as to why I love the game so much. It makes perfect sense given everything that happened while also being audacious in how its presented and its direction in context to how other AAA games' wrap up their stories. It's devastating in its humanity, in its depiction of the lengths that people go to just to not be alone, how that manifests in the smallest of actions, and how its reflected in the tiniest motions in body language.

And of course I'm both super skeptical and hopeful of where the sequel takes the narrative.
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I'm skeptical of what I've seen of Part 2, but if they can make it work, I'm all for it.

It's interesting how different your opinions are from mine. I really liked the gameplay because the stealth was super fun, and the section where they took all your upgrades away and had you play as Ellie was the best in the game. Winter in general was clearly the highlight, and the ending was exactly as long as it needed to be (loved the ending in general). I also thought the fights against the Bloaters were super corny (they felt too video game-y and at odds with the grounded tone).

However, I completely agree on your analysis of Joel and Ellie as characters. They're the heart and soul of the game.
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I agree with Yo that Fall is the best. I thought it was a very solid and varied section. It is paced incredibly well (unless you take too long at the university). Also helps that you don't fight many infected.

Winter is also pretty good except for the fight in the mill or whatever that place was. The first fight after you meet David
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My reaction to the ending was "oh." because it felt so sudden. And then like a second later I got what they were doing and I was like "ohhhhhhh. That's brilliant."

they felt too video game-y and at odds with the grounded tone

Someone needs to explain this sort of criticism to me. People were describing a couple of GoT themes last summer as being "too TV" as well. Is the idea that they're kind of clichd? The way I read it strikes me as people being ashamed of the medium, like it's bad to be video game-y. TLOU has stuff like collectable items, upgrading weapons, stealth kills, health bars. Is all of that also "too video game-y"? I don't know what the distinction is or should be.
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CaptainOfCrush posted...

What did you not like about the ending? I'm getting into spoiler territory here so

My money was on Joel dying at first, but to me, this was a great way to end it with both of them alive while also staying true to the world we were given, which isn't one of happy endings. I probably wouldn't have enjoyed an ending where Ellie can provide the makings of a cure with blood samples and then live happily with Joel because it would feel contrary to the tone and brutality of the whole game.

I don't really care to discuss it too much because people always end up going THAT'S THE POINT THAT'S WHY IT'S SO BRILLIANT but it actively bothers me that literally nobody cares about what Ellie wants in this. Nobody ever asks her what she wanted to do. Yes, I get that was the "point," but I still think it's terrible.

"It can't have been for nothing."

*fast-forward to ending*

"oh I guess it can"
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I agree with that criticism and to me it comes down to the game design vocabulary they use. It's like reading a gripping well written novel and then the next chapter is in a nursery rhyme format with pictures. It's still valid prose, but it feels pedantic and overly safe and doesn't add meaningful content. Feels like the devs didn't trust the player to appreciate the nore subtle and deep encounters and emotions alone, and threw in these basic fights as insurance for players who just wanted to kill big monsters.

TLOU is insanely gamey, and that's a big part of why I like it. It's a super serious game but it still incorporates clear defined mechanics that would even make for a good board game if you stripped out all the narrative. But all those mechanics are used to enhance the drama and serious emotion of the game. A pile of bricks in a room means you can be more aggressive, clickers raise the tension of all your actions, etc. But bloaters just mean you have to sit there for a couple minutes shooting at a big thing, like a kid at an arcade game.

I do think they used a bloater well in that basement area though, specifically because you weren't really supposed to fight it.
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And when something is "too gamey" it means it is too traditional/basic, same with "too TV". It's not being ashamed of the medium, it's realizing there's more to the medium than the same 3 things that dominated the past few decades of design. It's having actual respect for the potential of the medium and the ability of the devs to deliver new experiences, instead of just liking games because it reminds you of what you played when you were 5 but with better graphics.
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I hated the bloaters because they suck and aren't fun to fight. You just have to run around shooting them or hope you saved up a pile of molotovs
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LeonhartFour posted...

but it actively bothers me that

Well it's not a happy ending. That's what people mean by "that's the point". You can like an ending even if it's not happy right?

Another theory that I have that is actually ambiguous in the ending, unlike the lying thing, is whether Ellie ditches Joel soon after because she realizes she won't get her closure by following him, or whether she has abandoned hope for closure and will just try to survive now. I think the first option would be way more interesting so I hope they explore that in 2.
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foolm0r0n posted...

Well it's not a happy ending. That's what people mean by "that's the point". You can like an ending even if it's not happy right?

And I can dislike an ending even though I get "the point."
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Right

But you're saying you only disliked it cuz it was bleak
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foolm0r0n posted...

Right

But you're saying you only disliked it cuz it was bleak

that's not what I said at all but whatever
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There is more to an ending than just understanding it and accepting it.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think what Leon is saying is he does not like the ending because he does not like the way Ellie is treated. Regardless of whether it makes sense, he wishes that something else had happened. He has an emotional connection to that character and wanted better for her. I have felt that way with other characters in other stories.

I don't think there is anything wrong with that.
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KingButz posted...

There is more to an ending than just understanding it and accepting it.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think what Leon is saying is he does not like the ending because he does not like the way Ellie is treated. Regardless of whether it makes sense, he wishes that something else had happened. He has an emotional connection to that character and wanted better for her. I have felt that way with other characters in other stories.

I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

Yep, that's exactly it. I would've been fine with a "bleak" ending. It really has nothing to do with the tone.
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I must be missing something because all you're describing is a bleak (or unsavory or depressing or whatever synonym) ending. You wanted good things to happen to Ellie, but bad things happened instead. That's "the point".
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foolm0r0n posted...

You wanted good things to happen to Ellie

again that's not what I said
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I haven't played the game so I don't know what the circumstances are, but if say, whoever had listened to ellie and tried her solution for whatever the problem was, and it didn't work anyway, would you have been okay with it leon?
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LeonhartFour posted...

again that's not what I said

That's what bartz said and you said exactly

is this gaslighting
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Emeraldegg posted...

I haven't played the game so I don't know what the circumstances are, but if say, whoever had listened to ellie and tried her solution for whatever the problem was, and it didn't work anyway, would you have been okay with it leon?

I'd have been fine with that, or at least more fine. Obviously, it would depend on the execution, but as an idea, I like it better, sure. I don't particularly care what Ellie's choice would have been, but we never get to find out.
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foolm0r0n posted...

LeonhartFour posted...

again that's not what I said

That's what bartz said and you said exactly

is this gaslighting

"wanting better for Ellie" isn't exactly synonymous with "wanting good things for Ellie" but I can see why you'd be confused

KingButz posted...

he does not like the way Ellie is treated

this is the crux and I don't care if the "point" is that both sides care more about themselves than they care about Ellie
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Yeah that is the most hair splitting semantics I've seen in a long time. But my main question is still, can't you enjoy an ending where the characters end up worse than how you wanted them do?
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foolm0r0n posted...

Yeah that is the most hair splitting semantics I've seen in a long time.

I mean it's not

if Ellie chooses the exact same thing as Joel that's better in my eyes because at least it was her choice instead of it being forced on her

if she chooses the other thing and it fails it's still better because at least it was her choice

foolm0r0n posted...

But my main question is still, can't you enjoy an ending where the characters end up worse than how you wanted them do?

I mean FFX and MGS3 are my favorite video game endings so yeah you're still way off the mark by thinking this is simply a black and white "happy ending vs. downer ending" issue
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I'm not in your brain dude, I'm just going by what you're typing here. If there's a reason you like MGS3's but not TLOU's then I'm trying to figure that out (FFX's is a really happy ending tbh).

LeonhartFour posted...

if Ellie chooses the exact same thing as Joel that's better in my eyes because at least it was her choice instead of it being forced on her

if she chooses the other thing and it fails it's still better because at least it was her choice

"The point" is she's screwed either way. We know what happens if Joel saves her and lies to her. If Joel didn't lie to her, nothing would change, except it would totally destroy Joel's character. If Joel didn't save her, she would die for probably no reason,
and that would also destroy Joel's character. We also know she definitely would've chosen the surgery (even if she thought it would fail cuz that doesn't actually matter), so spelling out the choice wouldn't add anything.

So for her to have a concrete choice somewhere in there would be pretty superficial and just go against the themes of the game.
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From what I understand based on previous comment Leon has made about the game, he doesn't like/care about Joel very much, thought that Ellie was by far the best part of the game, and didn't like that the ending was about other people making Ellie's decisions for her while she was unconscious and lacked agency.
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I think you care far too much about what a childs opinions based on incomplete information and a still-naive outlook on the world are tbqh

tcaz2 posted...

I think you care far too much about what a childs opinions based on incomplete information and a still-naive outlook on the world are tbqh

I think we're made to care because the only people in this world who aren't torturous assholes ARE the young naive children (we see it three times with Ellie, Sam, and Riley). I sympathize with the adult characters because they were turned this way by necessity, but the young characters are more endearing because that sense of innocence/compassion hasn't been totally beaten out of them yet.

That's why my biggest fear with a sequel (and I still haven't read or seen anything, so this is purely my speculation) is them giving us an older Ellie who has turned into Tess Jr. That would suck.
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tcaz2 posted...

I think you care far too much about what a childs opinions based on incomplete information and a still-naive outlook on the world are tbqh

okay Joel
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foolm0r0n posted...

(FFX's is a really happy ending tbh).

also no

FFX is a bittersweet ending

it's not a purely downer ending but it's not a totally happy one either
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