Board 8 > Mercs Offseason Topic: Now with Less Purge

(+) Yeah! (+)

i'm just direct linking something already uploaded

i'm not doing extra work by uploading again!

I've been feeling that Magic itch for the first time in about ~15 years, good time to jump back on board?

Drakeryn posted...

tifa;squall

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Hard at work on the new ruleset, found time to work out a thing to test out a character who'll certainly be featuring in M5. Thoughts?

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The Hollow Knight is as he appears in Hollow Knight and its DLCs, equipped with the Pure Nail and all his tools, including the upgraded Dream Nail. He has the charms Soul Eater, Shaman Stone, Spell Twister, Quick Slash, Longnail, Mark of Pride, Sharp Shadow, Dashmaster and Void Heart equipped. All of his spells are empowered to become their Void versions, and he is considered to be the size of a normal, if small human.

~VS~

Doomguy is as seen in Doom II. He comes to battle carrying a Pistol, Chainsaw, Chaingun, Shotgun, Plasma Gun, Super Shotgun and Rocket Launcher.

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Terrain: Kamurocho - A red light district city in Japan, as seen in the Yakuza series, with access to the surrounding cities restricted as it is in-game. No regular inhabitants are here, but everything is otherwise just as it usually is, with plenty of businesses, buildings, connected rooftops, alleyways, and underground paths. Attackers will start at the intersection between Nakamichi and Showa Street, with defenders starting at the foot of the Millennium Tower.
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I dunno, but if you guys make Plague Knight I'm bidding 200. I own a plushie of that adorable bastard
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tbh I think Doomguy takes that easy. I can't see Hollow Knight above a 3
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I take hollowknight there all day
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Johnbobb posted...

tbh I think Doomguy takes that easy. I can't see Hollow Knight above a 3

Did you do the new DLC Johnbobb? Cause I shared that opinion and then uh, Godmaster happened and jeeze my respect levels spiked the hell up.
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Terrain favors him too imo
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to be fair I haven't played Godmaster yet

my reasoning is largely due to his lack of mobility (dashes are effective but his overall movement speed is pretty slow) and range (has spells but they require soul that he can only regain via melee)

also he's not super durable AND doesn't have much weapon variety
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idk about not that durable since he basically has multiple lives, but yeah, he kinda does some crazy shit in Godmaster that raised my opinion of him a lot. It's kinda why he's matched up with a 4 and not a 3, I'm confident he'd absolutely beat the tar out of most 3s now.
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On a random note, it seems they made Quiet a playable character in MGS5, in case anyone wanted a better gauge on her besides a boss fight and some ridiculous cutscenes. She's very fast, she can jump straight up ladders instead of climbing them. She auto-cloaks when standing still
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

idk about not that durable since he basically has multiple lives,

how so?
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Johnbobb posted...

KanzarisKelshen posted...

idk about not that durable since he basically has multiple lives,

how so?

The masks exist canonically in-world. They're magical charms that protect the Knight's body (which you can see the need for because there's instance of what happens when a Vessel loses its body in the Abyss and the endings). So there's reason to believe the magics guarding his body would have to be broken before he can die.
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

Johnbobb posted...

KanzarisKelshen posted...

idk about not that durable since he basically has multiple lives,

how so?

The masks exist canonically in-world. They're magical charms that protect the Knight's body (which you can see the need for because there's instance of what happens when a Vessel loses its body in the Abyss and the endings). So there's reason to believe the magics guarding his body would have to be broken before he can die.

I wiki'd hollow knight, and him dying seems like it would be a disadvantage in the fight because of having to fight his shadow or whatever.
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IfGodCouldDie posted...

KanzarisKelshen posted...

Johnbobb posted...

KanzarisKelshen posted...

idk about not that durable since he basically has multiple lives,

how so?

The masks exist canonically in-world. They're magical charms that protect the Knight's body (which you can see the need for because there's instance of what happens when a Vessel loses its body in the Abyss and the endings). So there's reason to believe the magics guarding his body would have to be broken before he can die.

I wiki'd hollow knight, and him dying seems like it would be a disadvantage in the fight because of having to fight his shadow or whatever.

We wouldn't allow him to do anything after his body is shattered because he turns into a literal god and savagely wrecks an eldritch horror with ease when he does. I'll add that to the writeup for tonight.
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

Johnbobb posted...

KanzarisKelshen posted...

idk about not that durable since he basically has multiple lives,

how so?

The masks exist canonically in-world. They're magical charms that protect the Knight's body (which you can see the need for because there's instance of what happens when a Vessel loses its body in the Abyss and the endings). So there's reason to believe the magics guarding his body would have to be broken before he can die.

But there are also attacks that can break multiple masks at a time, so it's not like he necessarily needs to take damage many times. I imagine particularly powerful attacks could take several of his masks at a time (and all of them at once if you get to upper tier characters)
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Johnbobb posted...

KanzarisKelshen posted...

Johnbobb posted...

KanzarisKelshen posted...

idk about not that durable since he basically has multiple lives,

how so?

The masks exist canonically in-world. They're magical charms that protect the Knight's body (which you can see the need for because there's instance of what happens when a Vessel loses its body in the Abyss and the endings). So there's reason to believe the magics guarding his body would have to be broken before he can die.

But there are also attacks that can break multiple masks at a time, so it's not like he necessarily needs to take damage many times. I imagine particularly powerful attacks could take several of his masks at a time (and all of them at once if you get to upper tier characters)

Correct, yeah. Just saying that he's not necessarily going to be super glassy if you assume the knight is himself not made of paper - because then each mask wouldn't be.
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Match is live: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/77033945

I took the liberty of doing a bit of a presentation on the characters, since one is indie and the other is my homeboy. Vote away!
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Unimpressed Uncle was the second thing I noticed after Beaming Bride. Congrats Nat, this kinda came outta nowhere since you rarely share RL stuff!

wulfric just walked an old lady home

Blades >>>>>>>> Personas
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Putting this up in a bit, just checkin' to see if anybody has recommendations on tweaks to make:

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Heihachi Mishima is as he appears in Tekken 7: Fated Retribution, with access to all of his moves seen therein and all feats and abilities displayed in that game and previous Tekken titles. He may enter Rage multiple times per match, and has access to both his Rage Arts and Rage Drives as appropriate.

~VS~

Golbez is as he appears in Final Fantasy IV. He has access to all of his spells and techniques from both FFIV and The After Years, including Barrier Shift. He may not use Binding Cold or summon the Shadow Dragon.

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Terrain: XCOM Headquarters - An underground command center, attached to a Mech Bay and Forward Access Tunnel, as seen during the Alien base defense mission in XCOM, although the base is in pristine shape, instead of damaged. Attackers will start by the entrance, with defenders starting at the command center.
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That feels like one of those fights that could be luck of the draw. Or rather luck of "Where do these guys end up meeting." Golbez probably wins if they run into each other in an area where he can keep control stations and stuff between them. Heihachi wins if they wind up in a tunnel or something where he can rush him
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That sounds good then, since I wanted the match to be as fair as possible. Speaking of...

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/77043592

Have at it, gentlemen.
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....aaaaaahhhhh I see what you did there.

Doesn't look like Bagon at all, 1/10.

GuessMyUserName posted...

it popped up on the facebook lmao

facebook knows to send me anything celes-related to the top of my feed

GiftedACIII posted...

Hey, GMUN you should activate the hat in time seal the deal DLC while it's free for today

sureee I'll see!

Ah yes my cat is named Celes. :)
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So Heihachi got drubbed, but it seemed more Golbez respect than Heihachi disrespect. That's nice
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DeathChicken posted...

So Heihachi got drubbed, but it seemed more Golbez respect than Heihachi disrespect. That's nice

That was my take too

Heihachi solid 4, Golbez borderline 5

Pondering if there's any other matches we should run that we haven't yet. Would anybody be excited for Dante vs 2B, or 2B vs Raiden if you think Dante is too strong for her?
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honestly I'd say both are borderline 5. Golbez I think took that one because of having a specific magic advantage over H, not necessarily because he's all around that much better

for instance, take Heihachi v. Doomguy, how do you see that going? I feel like Heihachi should stomp
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also haven't played Nier yet, is she really almost on Dante level?
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Bub with Claire's gun training ability vs Aeris
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btw I am curious about the earlier Doomfist mention

I think he ends up losing to Heihachi, but he might be a borderline 3/4 character
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The issue with 2B is that her cutscene feats aren't amazing, but the scaling and escalation of her world is. Like she casually gets constant lock-on gattling gun support and basically has the option of programming Witch Time and Raiden Parries into her system.

With the exception of her AoE's, there's not a ton to show, and there's a lot of her getting pretty beaten up. But her gameplay showing is kinda fantastic... and antithetical as to what normally is easy to hype in mercs. And feats-wise, her best power showing is a p. huge Automata spoiler, and the second best is a joke encounter.

I feel Raiden's a lot more fair, 2B feels on the cusp of a 7/week rather than a solid 7/week, Raiden would be a good eye test for that. Personally I think it's all dependent on her pod and chip set-up, which you can't really give her everything as the game makes spacial limitations very clearly woven into her lore and playstyle.
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While Golbez did win hard because matchups in my eyes I don't think Heihachi is a borderline 5. Pretty solidly in 4 territory I think. That's not a dis as much as a reality check of what a fighting game character needs to do to enter 5 territory (Akuma). Hei's impressive feats are basically "this didn't kill him" which in a mercs fight doesn't matter as much cause it's all defensive (and sometimes puts him in a 6 month coma which may as well be dead)

Keep in mind M Bison was a 4 as well and I'd stand by that too.
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Doesn't Heihachi beat Akuma or at least fight him to a standstill in Tekken 7?
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Even if he did I'd put that on matchups

Akuma is just a lot more practical due to his high destructive power. He'd blast through Golbez very easily. Heihachi in a Mercs environment is a lot less useful because the scenario will often be "Heihachi keeps a dude occupied" while Akuma would be killing the dude,
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Like I think SF Ryu can put Akuma to a standstill or beat him in the right conditions too but Akuma is way better in a mercs battle.
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ok yeah I can see that

I think Heihachi is ideally a 5 but lacks the proof
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Kamekguy posted...

The issue with 2B is that her cutscene feats aren't amazing, but the scaling and escalation of her world is. Like she casually gets constant lock-on gattling gun support and basically has the option of programming Witch Time and Raiden Parries into her system.

With the exception of her AoE's, there's not a ton to show, and there's a lot of her getting pretty beaten up. But her gameplay showing is kinda fantastic... and antithetical as to what normally is easy to hype in mercs. And feats-wise, her best power showing is a p. huge Automata spoiler, and the second best is a joke encounter.

I feel Raiden's a lot more fair, 2B feels on the cusp of a 7/week rather than a solid 7/week, Raiden would be a good eye test for that. Personally I think it's all dependent on her pod and chip set-up, which you can't really give her everything as the game makes spacial limitations very clearly woven into her lore and playstyle.

I recall Alany saying something about how 2B can tank a nuclear explosion. Is there something like that in Automata? Cause if so that's such an absurd defense showing she's a 7 by default I think. It'd take a huge concerted effort to bring her down.
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She doesn't do anything on the scale of tanking a nuke.

oh, that's good to hear then

(on a related note, I should be able to start playing Nier Autobooty relatively soon, maybe two-three weeks tops once I'm done with TitS 3rd. Should be a good chance to learn about her!)
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Depending on how you frame the presentation and definitions you can argue Solid Snake being able to tank a nuke.
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Yeah there are multiple things FAR less potent than a nuke that greatly damage her. Her real strength for durability is she can customize herself to have constant regen, including passive, upon dealing damage, and upon killing. She can also essentially program i-frames into herself after taking a hit to prevent comboing, and program a time slow around her if any projectiles come close to her.

It's a LOT of gameplay stuff, but it's all lore-justified gameplay stuff. Honestly her best showing is probably "her self-destruct can take out a whole space station", but it's not really clear if the explosion is just that strong or if it just causes a chain reaction, and it isn't quite that potent in gameplay.
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I feel like a self destruct tech would be banned in a mercs write-up anyway
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I had this build for 2B that I did on a lark for draftmerx...

2B is as she appears in NieR: Automata, equipped with the Virtuous Contract, Treaty, Dignity and Grief weapons. She is equipped with all of the System chips, Shock Wave, Continuous Combo, Overclock, Bullet Detonation, Evasive System and Offensive Heal, all of which are maxed out, with the exception of Offensive Heal which is at +6. She is accompanied by Pod 042, which has been fully upgraded with Pods A, B, and C and has access to all Pod programs. Self-Destruction is not enabled.

Is this reasonable? The reason Offensive Heal isn't maxed is because it scales super hard and at +10 she has like 50% lifesteal which is absolutely bananas unless you think she either does no damage or is made of paper.
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Don't see anything on that as particularly unreasonable. With that set-up, yeah that seems 7/week to me if you go based off of her reacting whilst the opponent is slowed. It'd just be an argument of raw potential vs feats, which I think is a fair one to have. Pod programs give 2B probably the most flexibility outside of Dante himself in how to approach something.
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Dante's build as well, in case anyone wants to chime on things to tweak or restrict:

Dante Sparda is as he appears across the Devil May Cry series, with full access to all of his weapons, styles and abilities, including his canon regen, except for special DTs (such as Majin Devil Trigger, Sparda DT, etc.), Kalina Ann and Yamato. Quicksilver and Doppelganger (as well as any other duplication/timehax abilities) will function as they do in the gameplay, as will his Devil Trigger.

(If I have to specify it, I can say DMC5 showings are not valid but I assume that won't be needed.)
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https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/77058721

It's up, let's rock!
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Understandable! I can't wait for it to eat up a month or so when I finally get around to it.

Next patch keeps growing and growing, so maybe this weekend.