Board 8 > All-Purpose Wrestling Topic 451: Clocks are banned so it's no longer Vader Time

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Lopen
07/18/18 10:51:51 PM
#301:


I think you're misunderstanding my position here

I think the crowd was bad but I think the booking was worse and best case scenario you're not getting a rowdy crowd for the ME but it would be a dead one
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TheRock1525
07/18/18 10:55:13 PM
#302:


I'm of the mindset that the crowd was bad and seemed to be intent on being bad regardless of booking, and you could have had the match open the night and they likely would have done the same thing. Because they saw a clock and went "hurr-durr let's countdown like the Royal Rumble" and that was gonna happen in hour one or hour four.
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PrivateBiscuit1
07/18/18 10:59:00 PM
#303:


I'm still really confused why people are acting like it's just a Pittsburgh crowd. A lot of people came from Philly. You can tell the difference because they only come for big shows. For instance, the crowd is notably different for Raw, Smackdown, or a D List PPV without gimmicks like Road Block in Pittsburgh. It's usually lame or silent. This crowd was rauceous and the last time Pittsburgh crowd ever got like this was for the Royal Rumble Daniel Bryan riots.
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Lopen
07/18/18 11:02:09 PM
#304:


I think if you had an Iron Man match people wanted to see they wouldn't have done that. It was clear they'd turned on the match before even giving it a chance. That crowd has had matches with timers before and not acted like that

To open the show they may have wanted to see it

After three hours of tepid action no one wants to see much of any wrestling though, much less that match which was guaranteed to waste another half an hour of their life minimum
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StealThisSheen
07/18/18 11:02:16 PM
#305:


I think this is a dumb argument because both sides are right

There are reasons the crowd reacted how it did

But they still didn't have to act that way and were total dickheads for doing so

That said, if you think B8 is the only place that isn't up Sasha's ass, I question how much you actually use the internet
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Lopen
07/18/18 11:05:31 PM
#306:


StealThisSheen posted...
There are reasons the crowd reacted how it did

But they still didn't have to act that way and were total dickheads for doing so


The crux of the disagreement is rock thinks the reasons the crowd acted that way is because they were total dickheads and they were going to be total dickheads regardless.

I think they can be dickheads without necessarily acting that way if the card was laid out differently.
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StealThisSheen
07/18/18 11:07:52 PM
#307:


I think it's somewhere in the middle

I don't think they just decided to be total dickheads regardless at like, the beginning of the show or anything

But they did decide they weren't going to even remotely give the match a chance before it even started, since the countdown stuff started immediately.
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TheRock1525
07/18/18 11:08:05 PM
#308:


Lopen posted...
The crux of the disagreement is rock thinks the reasons the crowd acted that way is because they were total dickheads and they were going to be total dickheads regardless.


Pretty much, they saw a clock and went in for themselves. I can't imagine that changing if the clock is shown to them a little earlier in the PPV.

It was a unique feature to the match.
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Lopen
07/18/18 11:10:43 PM
#309:


StealThisSheen posted...
But they did decide they weren't going to even remotely give the match a chance before it even started, since the countdown stuff started immediately.


They weren't going to give it a chance because they were exhausted at that point and didn't want to see a pointless 30 minute match between 2 good workers.

Without the timer they'd probably have given it some time to hook them (as they weren't immediately soured by "ugh why is this 30 minutes I just want this show to end") and it may have worked if the match was paced quickly early, even if it ultimately lasted 30 minutes.
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TheRock1525
07/18/18 11:13:46 PM
#310:


Lopen posted...
Without the timer they'd probably have given it some time to hook them and it may have worked if the match was paced quickly early.


Or they would have just started chanting Randy Savage, since the excuse is "well they were too exhausted to care about the match." Because if they're too exhausted to care, then this match would have struggled without a stipulation anyway.

You can't have it both ways. "They were too tired to care but would have cared if there was no clock." They were idiots that had fun with a clock.
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StealThisSheen
07/18/18 11:18:20 PM
#311:


Lopen posted...
They weren't going to give it a chance because they were exhausted at that point and didn't want to see a pointless 30 minute match between 2 good workers.


To be fair, I think this is a problem in itself

Wrestling fans always preach "Just let them wrestle! Who cares about the rest."

Yet they didn't even give Rollins and Ziggler a minute.

Like, people can't say "I just want good matches" and then go "But this one didn't have a story I liked so I crapped on it in 50 seconds"
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Lopen
07/18/18 11:18:33 PM
#312:


It's not both ways

One is "you have a very small time limit to hook them before exhaustion sets in" and the other is "you cannot hook them no matter what you do because no one cares about Iron Man Matches for the first 80% of the match anymore"

A less tired crowd may have had the patience to not die sitting through 24 minutes of filler if it was entertaining enough filler but a 3 hour dead crowd can't. They either die or they entertain themselves.

Tease some near falls immediately and don't put a literal 30 minute minimum time on the match and the audience hasn't resigned themselves to 24 minutes of filler and are more receptive to excitement
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StealThisSheen
07/18/18 11:20:15 PM
#313:


Lopen posted...
Tease some near falls immediately


I mean 90% of the falls happened in the first half of the match so I don't think this was the problem
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Lopen
07/18/18 11:20:22 PM
#314:


StealThisSheen posted...
Like, people can't say "I just want good matches" and then go "But this one didn't have a story I liked so I crapped on it in 50 seconds"


Well I'd argue an Iron Man match with the feud as it was very unlikely to be a good match. People would boo Jinder and Roman only 50 seconds in too.
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Lopen
07/18/18 11:20:59 PM
#315:


StealThisSheen posted...
I mean 90% of the falls happened in the first half of the match so I don't think this was the problem


Early near falls don't matter in a 30 minute Iron Man match because the match literally can't end then
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TheRock1525
07/18/18 11:22:40 PM
#316:


I like how it's 24 minutes of filler when a major moment came about 10 minutes into the match. The audience got involved and intrigued when it happened... and then went right back to counting down the clock. So even when they did get engaged in the actual match and therefore should have moved away from the countdown, they still immediately went back to it because they're dickheads.
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StealThisSheen
07/18/18 11:23:10 PM
#317:


Lopen posted...
StealThisSheen posted...
I mean 90% of the falls happened in the first half of the match so I don't think this was the problem


Early near falls don't matter in a 30 minute Iron Man match because the match literally can't end then


But you literally just argued that early falls/near falls may have helped

That's exactly what the match had

The pacing wasn't the issue
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Lopen
07/18/18 11:24:39 PM
#318:


It was 10 minutes of filler followed by 1 minute of intrigue followed by 13 minutes of filler. 1 minute of good stuff doesn't suddenly make the match able to end early
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Lopen
07/18/18 11:25:25 PM
#319:


StealThisSheen posted...
But you literally just argued that early falls/near falls may have helped


In a match that was NOT A FUCKING 30 MINUTE IRON MAN MATCH

BECAUSE IT COULD ACTUALLY END

CHRIST
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StealThisSheen
07/18/18 11:25:48 PM
#320:


Like, I agree "Ugh an Iron Man" was part of the issue

But the point I'm making is it could have been the greatest Iron Man match in wrestling history and that wasn't going to stop the crowd, since they decided 50 seconds in that they were going to shit on it regardless. It WAS quickly paced in the beginning, and the crowd DID actually react to a few of the falls. The problem is they reacted and then immediately went back to counting because they thought it was funny or something?

So while the type of match is partly to blame, the crowd being dickheads I personally feel is still a bigger issue
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StealThisSheen
07/18/18 11:29:42 PM
#321:


That was my bad on misreading

I do get your point, Lopen, and mostly agree. I just think Rock's argument has a bit of merit, too, just because the crowd actually did get pulled in and react during a few points in the match, but then they immediately counted more, anyway.

It feels like the counting wasn't 100% exhaustion, and more like 50% exhaustion, 50% they just wanted to meme regardless
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Lopen
07/18/18 11:34:15 PM
#322:


It definitely wasn't 100% exhaustion

I just think that crowd if it wasn't exhausted doesn't do it

And that it would be less likely for that crowd to crap on a match that wasn't an Iron Man match like 2 minutes in. I do think that that crowd would have had a very short attention span but it would've been just a little longer. Maybe 5 minutes, maybe 10.

And if they were into it before getting bored they wouldn't have crapped on it.

Once the shitstorm has begun though having a cool moment or two isn't going to bring them out of it.

Like I said I do blame the crowd, I just don't even close to primarily blaming it. A better crowd would be comatose instead of derailing the match, which is definitely an improvement, but it's overly apologetic for whoever put that card together being shit at their job to claim it's the crowd's "fault"
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Tom Bombadil
07/18/18 11:35:36 PM
#323:


I'm gonna start counting down posts until a new page
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Lopen
07/18/18 11:36:09 PM
#324:


Are you exhausted or memeing
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Solioxrz362
07/18/18 11:36:28 PM
#325:


I'll help Tom

25!
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ExThaNemesis
07/18/18 11:37:14 PM
#326:


davidponte posted...
How much time has to pass before it becomes acceptable for me to say that I miss MWC's trolling?


Duh. Three months, obviously.
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ExThaNemesis
07/18/18 11:38:28 PM
#327:


Also I came in here expecting something major to have happened with all the new posts.

Instead we have a four page Rock/Lopen argument about Extreme Rules.

Just agree to disagree, ya'll.
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Lopen
07/18/18 11:40:20 PM
#328:


It's not about Extreme Rules it's about wrestling show booking theory

Extreme Rules is boring match placement and structure is interesting
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ExThaNemesis
07/18/18 11:47:44 PM
#329:


I kind of agree with both of your points in that the show was horrendously booked (and honestly the major problem, I said this from the beginning, was 4 hour long PPVs).

But I also agree that the Pittsburgh crowd were total dickheads and should've behaved better.
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Hardcore_Adult
07/19/18 2:19:19 AM
#330:


Man, this went on all night.

Can we all just agree that ER was Shitshow '18 and move on?
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scarletspeed7
07/19/18 3:31:40 AM
#331:


Yes because less conversation is always the right choice for a discussion topic.
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ffmasterjose
07/19/18 5:08:05 AM
#332:


I thought it was better than Backlash at least!
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illuminatusbubu
07/19/18 6:13:05 AM
#333:


TheRock1525 posted...
One of them was literally Orton vs. Cena in their never-ending feud that went the full hour, and they didn't completely ruin the match like the Pittsburgh crowd did.

Do you where that match happened? Freaking Pittsburgh.
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Whiskey_Nick
07/19/18 9:09:37 AM
#334:


* NXT Championship Triple Threat Match: Johnny Gargano vs. Aleister Black vs. Tommaso Ciampa
* NXT Womens Championship Match: Kairi Sane vs. Shayna Baszler
* Tag Team Championship Match: Tyler Bate and Trent Seven vs. Roderick Strong and Kyle OReilly
* NXT North American Championship Match: Ricochet vs. Adam Cole
* EC3 vs. The Velveteen Dream


Hell of a card for NXT Brooklyn
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PrivateBiscuit1
07/19/18 9:34:31 AM
#335:


So according to Meltzer, he's talked to a lot of people about the Hogan thing and apparently over half the locker room isn't happy with him being back. He says that Hogan didn't apologize for what he said really, but apologized for getting caught and made excuses the whole time. This was primarily a meeting to discuss the dangers of saying things where they can be recorded, even though the issue was that Hogan said some horribly racist things.

They flew every member of the roster here for the meeting and let anyone who wasn't a part of the PPV leave. Dave thinks Hogan thought that the roster would have his back on this now because they're "the boys" and they'll always have each other's backs. He says it's an educated guess knowing what he does about Hogan, and that he'll come back and make a more substantial apology later likely.

But Dave also said that nobody was talking about it on Raw and it felt eerie because nobody wanted to get in trouble for it. He said New Day was asked about it enough that they wanted to address it and they probably think they can't get punished for it because they're kind of a big deal and it would be a bad look. And Titus only made a statement because some awful rumors (supposedly started by the PWB and made its way to dirtsheets somehow) and he wanted to clear his name of the accusations before it got out of hand.

Overall, Hogan gonna Hogan. WWE gonna WWE.
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CeraSeptem
07/19/18 10:55:10 AM
#336:


This Hogan thing has really turned me off from WWE on the whole. I was already cutting my watch time because Raw and SD aren't worth it, generally, but I'm seriously considering whether to bother with any of it. Of course it's easy to do when it's G1 month, but I'm debating it long term.
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Lopen
07/19/18 11:58:21 AM
#337:


If you were going to protest bail on WWE I feel like Greatest Royal Rumble was the better time since it actually affected the on screen product but you do you
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Hardcore_Adult
07/19/18 12:46:46 PM
#338:


Don't write the product off completely. 205L does its job for the most part.
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Eddv
07/19/18 12:53:22 PM
#339:


Ill say it is

When Ceddy and Lio quit theyre gonna be able to make so much more money on the Indy circuit
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CeraSeptem
07/19/18 1:00:16 PM
#340:


Cool story, Lopen.

Yeah, 205 and NXT are the only things I'm even interested in as is, but it's just ruminating now.
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Lopen
07/19/18 1:19:39 PM
#341:


One cool story deserves another that's what I always say.
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Hardcore_Adult
07/19/18 1:28:40 PM
#342:


A sub-par NXT seems to be better than most GOOD RAWs.
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HashtagSEP
07/19/18 3:17:55 PM
#343:


Hardcore_Adult posted...
A sub-par NXT seems to be better than most GOOD RAWs.


We get it

Could you maybe stop making a dozen posts about how much Raw sucks every week and just stop watching it?
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scarletspeed7
07/19/18 3:19:51 PM
#344:


It seems like a significant part of the main roster in WWE is not pleased with Hogan's non-apology at Extreme Rules. I'm not entirely surprised, and while I wouldn't assume there will be no pleasing some people, his apology sounded like it was primarily about excuses and mostly an apology for getting caught.

EDIT: And I just saw Biscuit's post about it. Derp.
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Hardcore_Adult
07/19/18 3:37:31 PM
#345:


I usually skip through most if it and watch the parts that, you know, AREN'T *death*?

Plus, No-one's forcing you to read it. I was mainly talking to Cera.

And if you want bitching on a grander scale, Migrate to the PWB where there's a lot more whinging about the product (65% Justified).
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XIII_rocks
07/19/18 4:17:13 PM
#346:


https://twitter.com/VinceMcMahon/status/1020035590165803008?s=19

Well
Yeah
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RaidenZeroX
07/19/18 5:39:58 PM
#347:


XIII_rocks posted...
https://twitter.com/VinceMcMahon/status/1020035590165803008?s=19

Well
Yeah


It does look pretty bad
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TheRock1525
07/19/18 10:11:59 PM
#348:


BTW, aren't we coming up on 4 years of the New Day existing?

That's kind of amazing considering how badly it flopped at first.
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scarletspeed7
07/19/18 10:21:15 PM
#349:


I think that proves that Vince is right and if he just keeps trying, Roman will get over in 4 years.
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Tom Bombadil
07/19/18 10:31:59 PM
#350:


I was just idly wondering last night if they're ever gonna pull a heel turn

like the first week or two they were talking about how being all goofy and happy kept the darkness from getting out or something and that'd be a kinda fun angle to go with it someday

wwe is a big fan of 4-year character arcs right
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