Poll of the Day > Why are Zelda-adventure games not called Metroidvanias?

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Lokarin
07/22/18 4:02:28 PM
#1:


Games such as Battle of Olympus, Anodyne, Hydra Castle Labyrinth, Maze of Gallious, Darksiders and such
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#2
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Zeus
07/22/18 4:53:03 PM
#3:


Lokarin posted...
Games such as Battle of Olympus, Anodyne, Hydra Castle Labyrinth, Maze of Gallious, Darksiders and such


Why would you even refer to them as Zelda-styled? Not seeing much connection for least a few of those. Putting Darksiders in the same camp as Battle of Olympus is also just weird.
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DPsx7
07/22/18 5:16:05 PM
#4:


Zangulus posted...
Metroidvania is typically reserved for 2d side scrollers. Once they move into third dimension its not quite the same.


I'd say you're right. There's more to it of course but we'll go with this for simplicity.

Huh, the only one I heard of is Darksiders. As a fan of the 'genre' I'll need to look up the rest.
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Lokarin
07/22/18 7:30:37 PM
#5:


Zeus posted...
Lokarin posted...
Games such as Battle of Olympus, Anodyne, Hydra Castle Labyrinth, Maze of Gallious, Darksiders and such


Why would you even refer to them as Zelda-styled? Not seeing much connection for least a few of those. Putting Darksiders in the same camp as Battle of Olympus is also just weird.


I've heard so many times that Darksiders is a Zelda clone...
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BTB
07/22/18 8:19:56 PM
#6:


Zangulus posted...
Metroidvania is typically reserved for 2d side scrollers. Once they move into third dimension its not quite the same.


Battle of Olympus WAS a 2D side scroller.
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Serdar
07/23/18 3:28:16 PM
#8:


Zelda is an action game.
Adventure is Grim Fandango and Monkey Island.
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DPsx7
07/23/18 4:36:52 PM
#9:


Lokarin posted...
Zeus posted...
Lokarin posted...
Games such as Battle of Olympus, Anodyne, Hydra Castle Labyrinth, Maze of Gallious, Darksiders and such


Why would you even refer to them as Zelda-styled? Not seeing much connection for least a few of those. Putting Darksiders in the same camp as Battle of Olympus is also just weird.


I've heard so many times that Darksiders is a Zelda clone...


The first one maybe, not so much the second. There are some similarities in the gameplay and progression but not to the point I'd call it a clone.
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Questionmarktarius
07/23/18 4:46:03 PM
#10:


BTB posted...
Zangulus posted...
Metroidvania is typically reserved for 2d side scrollers. Once they move into third dimension its not quite the same.


Battle of Olympus WAS a 2D side scroller.

I supposed it could be a "metroidvania", in the same embryonic sense as CV2 and Wonderboy3
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Lokarin
07/23/18 6:21:43 PM
#11:


Questionmarktarius posted...
Wonderboy3


I was just about to mention Wonderboy, but specifically the later ones like Monster World
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Lokarin
07/23/18 9:42:48 PM
#12:


Basically I'm referring to any ol' game where you get some powerup that affects the number of locations you can go to... which is kinda general and could apply to almost any game, but if you don't get pedantic then we should be ok.
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Zeus
07/23/18 10:40:47 PM
#13:


Lokarin posted...
Basically I'm referring to any ol' game where you get some powerup that affects the number of locations you can go to... which is kinda general and could apply to almost any game, but if you don't get pedantic then we should be ok.


Metroidvanias have far more qualifications than just that.
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Lokarin
07/23/18 10:42:42 PM
#14:


Zeus posted...
Metroidvanias have far more qualifications than just that.


Suchas?

Try to define some diagnostic traits of metroidvanias so that Zelda 2 somehow isn't one.
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T0ffee
07/23/18 10:50:28 PM
#15:


Lokarin posted...
Zeus posted...
Metroidvanias have far more qualifications than just that.


Suchas?

Try to define some diagnostic traits of metroidvanias so that Zelda 2 somehow isn't one.


Backtracking to earlier areas to unlock new paths with abilities/items acquired through your adventure is a big part of metroidvanias.

Haven't played Zelda 2, but watched a couple of let's plays and from what I see it's fairly linear, with little to almost no backtracking.
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GanglyKhan
07/23/18 11:30:59 PM
#16:


Lokarin posted...
Zeus posted...
Metroidvanias have far more qualifications than just that.


Suchas?

Try to define some diagnostic traits of metroidvanias so that Zelda 2 somehow isn't one.

Repeated upgrades for ammo/health
Typically 2D
Typically has sequence breaking without use of bugs/glitches
Game has minimal side-story/side-content compared to other games
Lack of towns/hubs, usually just one near the beginning
At least two endings, or some variation of ending screens depending on collection and time

These are just my thoughts, not claiming any to be objectively true.
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DPsx7
07/24/18 4:10:36 PM
#17:


Lokarin posted...
Basically I'm referring to any ol' game where you get some powerup that affects the number of locations you can go to... which is kinda general and could apply to almost any game, but if you don't get pedantic then we should be ok.


Man you're making it tough. By that logic you could include a lot of older games. Hell, modern ones too such as R&C.

I find it a challenge to discuss genres because it's so hard to define specifics, and then on top of that so many games are a blend of genres. Long ago I heard Zelda referred to as an RPG. Nah, RPG's have a lot more stats to track. Oh but Zelda gives you new items and areas, still it's not Metroidvania.
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ernieforss
07/24/18 4:12:39 PM
#18:


i guess because the game never forces you to go back to past dungeons.... except for skyward swords.
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Dikitain
07/24/18 4:15:45 PM
#19:


Serdar posted...
Zelda is an action game.


Action adventure more like.

It has some adventure elements in that you need to find certain items or complete certain tasks to progress and it is non-linear, but it is not a pure adventure game.

It also isn't pure action because it isn't akin to say Contra or Super Mario Brothers.
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Lokarin
07/24/18 4:25:00 PM
#20:


What about Demon's Crest? it features both item and ability based progression combined with backtracking... with no RPG elements, but it's an RPG?
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DPsx7
07/24/18 5:36:42 PM
#21:


How about Guacamelee? I thought it leaned a little more towards platforming.
Shantae? Enh, sorta.
Muramasa? Bit of a stretch.
Kirby Amazing Mirror? Getting closer.

We could be at this for months...
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Lil69Leo
07/24/18 6:01:50 PM
#22:


Lokarin posted...
Zeus posted...
Lokarin posted...
Games such as Battle of Olympus, Anodyne, Hydra Castle Labyrinth, Maze of Gallious, Darksiders and such


Why would you even refer to them as Zelda-styled? Not seeing much connection for least a few of those. Putting Darksiders in the same camp as Battle of Olympus is also just weird.


I've heard so many times that Darksiders is a Zelda clone...


In what way?
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Lokarin
07/24/18 7:00:43 PM
#23:


Lil69Leo posted...
Lokarin posted...
Zeus posted...
Lokarin posted...
Games such as Battle of Olympus, Anodyne, Hydra Castle Labyrinth, Maze of Gallious, Darksiders and such


Why would you even refer to them as Zelda-styled? Not seeing much connection for least a few of those. Putting Darksiders in the same camp as Battle of Olympus is also just weird.


I've heard so many times that Darksiders is a Zelda clone...


In what way?


IDK, it's just what I heard

...

There's also Blaster Master - which does have item and zone based progression with map exploration AND back tracking... not a metroidvania
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DPsx7
07/24/18 8:55:28 PM
#24:


Lokarin posted...
There's also Blaster Master - which does have item and zone based progression with map exploration AND back tracking... not a metroidvania


Ugh, that game. Never beat it on the NES but did complete it years ago through emulation (before I fixed the 72 pin connector on my NES). One thing always bugged me about that, how it could be so linear for the first half and then expect you to go ALL the way back to the beginning to find world 4 I think it was. Who would even think of that?

Oh wait, wasn't there a small map in the manual? It's been a long time. One of the first 5 NES games I owned.
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Questionmarktarius
07/24/18 9:00:43 PM
#25:


DPsx7 posted...
One thing always bugged me about that, how it could be so linear for the first half and then expect you to go ALL the way back to the beginning to find world 4 I think it was. Who would even think of that?

And whose brilliant idea was it to have limited continues?
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Lokarin
07/24/18 9:28:10 PM
#26:


Well, the remake... the, umm, 4th remake (the 3DS one) is much better... but it still does that
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BTB
07/24/18 10:49:30 PM
#27:


Back on topic... Zelda 2, Castlevania 2, and Battle of Olympus are all definitely very early examples of what would eventually become the Metroidvania genre.
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ernieforss
07/26/18 11:45:21 AM
#28:


Guacamelee is definitely a metroidvanina. hell you get your powers from a chozo
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Metalsonic66
07/26/18 12:18:52 PM
#29:


Zangulus posted...
Metroidvania is typically reserved for 2d side scrollers. Once they move into third dimension its not quite the same.

Arkham Asylum?
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Revelation34
07/26/18 2:18:30 PM
#30:


The only similarity that Darksiders has to a Zelda game are the puzzles and they are shitty puzzles instead of good ones like Zelda.
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Metalsonic66
07/26/18 7:16:41 PM
#31:


Revelation34 posted...
The only similarity that Darksiders has to a Zelda game are the puzzles and they are shitty puzzles instead of good ones like Zelda.

Couldn't be farther from the truth
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Sephiroth C Ryu
07/26/18 8:01:14 PM
#32:


One thing that seems common in them is being 2D, but where the "2D" actually matters. i.e. you explore the castle/alien planet/etc not just going from room to room sideways, but you go vertically up or down as well.

Rather than having an overworld or world map connecting multiple "levels," the game tends to effectively be a single GIANT level. You could actually make an argument that they are the truer predecessor to an "open world" game in a way than something like Zelda (NES) was in this respect (at least, if you ignore the semantics of the entire "world" being a castle or a really cavernous section of an alien planet).

Said "single level" tends to be as tall as it is long, despite being a side-view type of game and not a top-down view. This tends to result in a world that is often very interconnected (often with some time-saving connections that you require a powerup to use).

They also tend to basically revolve around you exploring until you find a boss to defeat, and then defeat said boss for an upgrade that lets you explore places you couldn't before.

...You know, on that note. Megaman would actually have very good potential for being made as metrovania style game. I mean, if Capcom can be trusted to do so.
.
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Revelation34
07/27/18 3:05:31 AM
#33:


Metalsonic66 posted...
Couldn't be farther from the truth


Never played Darksiders 2 but it was true for the first one.
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Questionmarktarius
07/27/18 9:51:41 AM
#34:


Sephiroth C Ryu posted...
...You know, on that note. Megaman would actually have very good potential for being made as metrovania style game. I mean, if Capcom can be trusted to do so.

Capcom can't be trusted to do it. That's why Inti Creates made ZX and ZX Advent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mega_Man_ZX
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mega_Man_ZX_Advent
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Metalsonic66
07/27/18 2:44:57 PM
#35:


Revelation34 posted...
Metalsonic66 posted...
Couldn't be farther from the truth


Never played Darksiders 2 but it was true for the first one.

The first one is the one that was almost exactly like Zelda other than the GoW-esque combat
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Revelation34
07/27/18 4:00:00 PM
#36:


Metalsonic66 posted...
The first one is the one that was almost exactly like Zelda other than the GoW-esque combat


The first one had shitty puzzles because they didn't fit in a game like that.
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DPsx7
07/27/18 4:40:46 PM
#37:


What are you all knocking the first game for? If Darksiders did everything just like Zelda then you'd be bashing it for being a clone.
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Metalsonic66
07/27/18 4:44:42 PM
#38:


Revelation34 posted...
The first one had shitty puzzles because they didn't fit in a game like that.

Regardless of whether you liked the puzzles or not, to claim the only similarity to Zelda were the puzzles is simply wrong.
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GanglyKhan
07/27/18 4:45:19 PM
#39:


Sephiroth C Ryu posted...
...You know, on that note. Megaman would actually have very good potential for being made as metrovania style game. I mean, if Capcom can be trusted to do so.

I know it would get compared to those weird Spyro/Crash games from the early-mid 2000s, but I've always wanted dual release Metroid x Mega Man games where Samus has to go through and defeat 8 Space Pirate leaders before tackling Ridley's Lair and Mega Man goes through an insanely large Wily's Castle that spans many different kinds of environments while backtracking and finding secrets.
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