Board 8 > leftist politics topic

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Nrrr
09/07/18 10:17:43 AM
1
feel like we need a politics topic that isn't full of fascists or libs

what this topic is:
intended to discuss politics if you are a social democrat or further to the left
a place to get mad and horny and never have to use logic or facts

what this topic is not:
a place to support captalism, imperialism, sexism, racism, ableism, civility, proper decorum, or respect for john mccain
NFUN
09/07/18 10:19:22 AM
2
#politics-containment
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Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination.
Nrrr
09/07/18 10:30:47 AM
3
already a capitalist dog is attempting to contain leftist thought, right out of the american playbook...
trdl23
09/07/18 10:32:55 AM
4
Whos this clown?
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E come vivo? Vivo!
TexasZea
09/07/18 10:36:07 AM
5
trdl23 posted...
Whos this clown?

probably a contest season troll/joke alt
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respek
iiaattgg
09/07/18 10:42:27 AM
6
I am not an ableist
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Sess
Of the superuser "merSHINEsess"
NFUN
09/07/18 10:46:22 AM
7
there is NO ethical consumption in capitalism*

*except ass
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Nrrr
09/07/18 10:52:05 AM
8
ass is not typically consumed, and there is no master of the ass. we each have democratic power over who we allow to eat our own ass, and when someone else feels they have ownership over our ass we rightly recognize this as exploitation. strange this does not carry over into the rest of our lives.
trdl23
09/07/18 11:50:06 AM
9
Nrrr posted...
ass is not typically consumed, and there is no master of the ass. we each have democratic power over who we allow to eat our own ass, and when someone else feels they have ownership over our ass we rightly recognize this as exploitation. strange this does not carry over into the rest of our lives.

I take it back, this is gold.
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E come vivo? Vivo!
swirIdude
09/07/18 11:52:31 AM
10
Following for more leftist ass takes.
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Nrrr
09/07/18 9:58:40 PM
11
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/johnpaczkowski/apple-banned-alex-jones-infowars-app-store

on one hand, fuck infowars and the effect Alex Jones has had on mush brained people around the world...but on the other hand...I will miss his over the top nonsense rants about goblins.
metroid composite
09/08/18 9:40:42 AM
12
Oh well, ok, let's goooo.

I'm sure people have heard by now that IBM has been making tools to let police search by skin colour:

https://theintercept.com/2018/09/06/nypd-surveillance-camera-skin-tone-search/

IBM does not have a particularly good track record with this, having invented a punch card system to be used by the Nazis during world war 2.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust

Quoting a twitter rant:

"They oversaw, developed, and maintained programs and machines designed to identify certain types of people, move them through train systems, and manage the populations of camps they sent them to. They even came up with a clever way to match their records systems to the individuals whose fate was decided by these machines, by tattooing their system codes directly on the skin of their victims. If youre wondering how much the company knew what was going on, know that the contracts were set up specifically for the SS Race Office with machines operated directly by these tech employees in each concentration camp. The punch card system had identifiers for specific concentration camps (001 for Auschwitz, 003 for Dachau), what ethnic group someone was (Jews were 8, homosexuals 3) and how they died (4 was execution, 6 was gas). That founder himself traveled to Germany a lot between 1933 and 1939 and was awarded a medal by Hitler for his extraordinary service to the Third Reich by a foreigner.

After the war, having made profits from all these German contracts for managing their concentration camps and supply lines, this company became a household name across the world. I guess they were too big to hold accountable. But now this tech company is finally dying out, and instead of admitting or apologizing for any of their history, they named their last ditch swan song buzzword-bullshit product after their Nazi-collaborating genocidal founder. Thats not ancient history. Thats today. Theyre actively celebrating their Nazi history and continuing their tradition of identifying everyday citizens by race for the authorities. Dont work for them. Dont do business with them. Dont let them sponsor your events."
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Nrrr
09/09/18 4:34:40 AM
13
I think just in general a major problem in the tech world is a complete lack or morals and willingness to make quite literally any product for anyone without questioning whether or not they SHOULD make it or how this might actually effect the real world...which is just how things go in a system that only values continued growth and profit at all costs, and is full of people who think STEM = smart and humanities = useless, full of idiots.

But yeah, not really shocked to hear that IBM is working with nazis both in WW2 and today.
Nrrr
09/09/18 10:43:27 PM
14
https://theintercept.com/2018/09/06/florida-voting-rights-restoration-felons/

I really hope this passes. Although I am deeply skeptical of good things ever happening, and of voting being a potential method of real change, there is absolutely no good reason to be removing the voting rights of felons.
swirIdude
09/09/18 11:56:56 PM
15
Nrrr posted...
https://theintercept.com/2018/09/06/florida-voting-rights-restoration-felons/

I really hope this passes. Although I am deeply skeptical of good things ever happening, and of voting being a potential method of real change, there is absolutely no good reason to be removing the voting rights of felons.


It definitely feels like this is going to pass. But I've been disappointed too often by Florida voters to be optimistic.
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Inviso
09/10/18 12:01:40 AM
16
When you leave "vote to give rights (that you already possess, so not NEW rights) to other people" up to the voters, I never have faith in voters. Because there isn't a scenario in which people feel INSPIRED to get out and vote POSITIVELY for this sort of shit. It's like people posting reviews online...you're far more likely to do it negatively.
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Inviso
Nrrr
09/10/18 12:18:05 AM
17
I can only imagine the kind of person who is motivated by ensuring rights remain taken away is a florida man
metroid composite
09/10/18 12:54:22 AM
18
Turns out HRC is still trash

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2018/09/the-human-rights-campaign-has-totally-betrayed-its-constituents

I haven't really kept up with the org since their bullshit with ENDA around 2009, but wow, sure sounds like they have not improved.

Some quotes:

Its only the most recent of a long series of such disgraces, though. Another recent one: HRC endorsed Andrew Cuomo (another straight man) over Cynthia Nixon (a queer woman). They even endorsed the Republican Susan Collins, who did not at the time support same sex-marriage over a Democratic opponent who has made LGBT equality including full marriage rights a central part of her platform and has even said the current version of ENDA is not strong enough because it would allow religious institutions to still discriminate against LGBT people. At the time, even other Republicans had endorsed marriage equality while Susan Collins stayed silent. (After the story broke, Susan Collins gave a brief and tepid statement of support for marriage equality.)

[...]

This is only the teensiest tip of a very bulky iceberg of failure and betrayal. Current Affairs editor Yasmin Nair, who has long reported on the manifold ways in which queer people are disregarded by the well-funded lobbying organizations that claim to speak for them, has pointed out other deeply dysfunctional aspects of the organization, including, its infamous transphobia, its support of the Bush administrations desire to privatize social security, its censorship of people it deems too messy and untidy. (The history on transgender issues has been especially shameful.) The organization has also had internal scandals over its treatment of women and people of color, with a sexist organizational culture.

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LordoftheMorons
09/10/18 1:18:49 AM
19
Is the claim that she should have endorsed Nixon specifically because shes a lesbian?

Maybe she just thought he was more qualified to be governor than someone who has never held elected office
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Nrrr
09/10/18 1:59:15 AM
20
HRC in this context is referring to the Human Rights Campaign, not Hillary Clinton. (unless you are referring to the hrc as 'she' and I am the one misreading things!)
LordoftheMorons
09/10/18 2:27:06 AM
21
No, I did misinterpret it. My bad!
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Nrrr
09/10/18 3:12:51 AM
22
pxlated
09/10/18 4:38:34 AM
23
But i thought countries were just supposed to move on instead of punishing previous leaders for blatant war crimes


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Vlado
09/10/18 4:52:43 AM
24
Nrrr posted...
https://theintercept.com/2018/09/06/florida-voting-rights-restoration-felons/

I really hope this passes. Although I am deeply skeptical of good things ever happening, and of voting being a potential method of real change, there is absolutely no good reason to be removing the voting rights of felons.

"Because they're criminals" is not a good reason? lmfao
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TheRock1525
09/10/18 5:16:27 AM
25
Vlado posted...
Nrrr posted...
https://theintercept.com/2018/09/06/florida-voting-rights-restoration-felons/

I really hope this passes. Although I am deeply skeptical of good things ever happening, and of voting being a potential method of real change, there is absolutely no good reason to be removing the voting rights of felons.

"Because they're criminals" is not a good reason? lmfao


The general idea is to pay your debt to society then have your rights restored. Not to mention it doesn't restore the rights of murders and sex predators so I think everyone should agree that dude possessing too much marijuana should be able to vote again.
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LordoftheMorons
09/10/18 5:18:58 AM
26
TheRock1525 posted...
The general idea is to pay your debt to society then have your rights restored. Not to mention it doesn't restore the rights of murders and sex predators so I think everyone should agree that dude possessing too much marijuana should be able to vote again.

Vlado thinks that those people should be murdered (or at least he's in favor of Duterte doing so), so I kinda doubt he'll agree with you here!
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Vlado
09/10/18 5:27:51 AM
27
Drug dealers should not get to vote, yes.
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TheRock1525
09/10/18 5:37:20 AM
28
Vlado posted...
Drug dealers should not get to vote, yes.


Why not? Some of those felony convictions are for drugs that are no longer illegal.
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TheRock1525
09/10/18 5:39:50 AM
30
By all means if you don't want to listen to me and Vlado, there's a block button.
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Vlado
09/10/18 5:57:28 AM
31
TheRock1525 posted...
Vlado posted...
Drug dealers should not get to vote, yes.


Why not? Some of those felony convictions are for drugs that are no longer illegal.

So? They were illegal at the time. But I am not surprised that you are advocating for criminals to have a say in law-abiding citizens' lives. Indeed, that is the only way your party stands a chance at all.
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Nrrr
09/10/18 7:32:23 AM
32
please keep your fascist thoughts in the fascist topic series, this is a topic for people who think a lot of the time breaking laws is good and a lot of people in prison are heroes, and all of them deserve a shot at rehabilitation.
Espeon
09/10/18 8:14:37 AM
33
By your logic, Vlado, what is the point of ever letting people out of prison? I mean, if after their sentence is complete, you still want them to be treated as subhuman, then why bother letting them reintegrate back into society?
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Mr Lasastryke
09/10/18 8:33:36 AM
34
hey vlado, have you ever illegally downloaded anything?
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Hardcore_Adult
09/10/18 9:27:26 AM
35
Espeon posted...
By your logic, Vlado, what is the point of ever letting people out of prison? I mean, if after their sentence is complete, you still want them to be treated as subhuman, then why bother letting them reintegrate back into society?


TBFTH, Some people should fucking STAY in prison. Especially those who didn't learn their lesson the first 10 times.
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Mr Lasastryke
09/10/18 9:37:16 AM
36
Hardcore_Adult posted...
Some people should fucking STAY in prison.


sure.

there's a pretty big difference between "some people should stay in prison" and "100% of people who ever stole an apple should be treated as subhuman for the rest of their lives" (i.e. vlado's stance), though.
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Lightning Strikes
09/10/18 10:01:29 AM
37
Disenfranchising people (especially in a way that disproportionately affects certain groups) is one of the worst things you can do in a democratic system, and if you support it you don't support a free and fair democracy.
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Espeon
09/10/18 10:22:00 AM
38
Mr Lasastryke posted...
Hardcore_Adult posted...
Some people should fucking STAY in prison.


sure.

there's a pretty big difference between "some people should stay in prison" and "100% of people who ever stole an apple should be treated as subhuman for the rest of their lives" (i.e. vlado's stance), though.


I mean, even BEFORE you take into account Russell Crowes awful singing, Javert is NOT someone to put up on a pedestal as being a paragon of justice.
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metroid composite
09/11/18 12:30:14 AM
39
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/8xvzwp/baltimore-cops-carried-toy-guns-to-plant-on-people-they-shot-trial-reveals-vgtrn?utm_source=reddit.com

Baltimore Cops Carried Toy Guns to Plant on People They Shot, Trial Reveals

One officer involved in the city's massive corruption scandal said officers kept the replicas "in case we accidentally hit somebody or got into a shootout, so we could plant them."

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CelesMyUserName
09/11/18 12:31:59 AM
40
mother fucking christ

that's chappelle's sprinkle some crack skit but a million times worse
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trdl23
09/11/18 9:04:52 AM
41
To clarify, Vlados opinion on literal Hitler is that the worst thing he did was lose the war.

Im not a fan of do not engage, usually, but Vlado is a special kind of awful.
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Nrrr
09/11/18 7:03:41 PM
42
Genuinely don't see how anyone can support anything but the complete abolition of the police at this point. It is an inherently immoral institution that only serves the purpose of protection of property rights and turning poor people into slaves.

https://www.thenation.com/article/abolish-police-instead-lets-have-full-social-economic-and-political-equality/
Kenri
09/11/18 8:54:41 PM
43
Nrrr posted...
Genuinely don't see how anyone can support anything but the complete abolition of the police at this point.

but then who will stop the roving bands of thieves from stealing my 2005 toyota corolla
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metroid composite
09/11/18 11:46:08 PM
44
Nrrr posted...
Genuinely don't see how anyone can support anything but the complete abolition of the police at this point. It is an inherently immoral institution that only serves the purpose of protection of property rights and turning poor people into slaves.

https://www.thenation.com/article/abolish-police-instead-lets-have-full-social-economic-and-political-equality/

From the perspective of someone who is white and female...no I don't agree with abolishing police. (Although granted I am aware there are people with similar demographics to me who are in favour of abolishing police such as Chelsea Manning).

I fully understand that there are police departments in need of reform, and that training of subconscious bias really needs to be a part of basic police training. But I also think there's a lot of vulnerable people who do currently benefit a fair bit from police. Police currently kind-of go off of intuition and stereotypes, which means they will protect old people and women (and yes often fail quite badly at protecting african american men). I would rather reform police departments than protect nobody.

There's pretty clear trends in statistics when you look across multiple countries that for any given crime rates of that crime will go up if punishment is lower, and rates of that crime will go up if enforcement is lower.

I will say, one of the things that the Nation seems to take issue with is that police are primarily enforcing property rights and business rights. And yeah, the Nation is a socialist/communist publication, so it makes sense that they would take issue with property and business rights. But it's not really the job of the police to determine the laws. They just enforce laws. Politicians write laws.

(Whether or not property rights/bussiness rights are a good thing is a different question).
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Hardcore_Adult
09/12/18 5:05:41 AM
45
Kenri posted...
Nrrr posted...
Genuinely don't see how anyone can support anything but the complete abolition of the police at this point.

but then who will stop the roving bands of thieves from stealing my 2005 toyota corolla


Vigilantism is on the rise. We've got all these wannabe Batmen and Punishers.
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Nrrr
09/12/18 6:05:22 AM
46
metroid composite posted...
Nrrr posted...
Genuinely don't see how anyone can support anything but the complete abolition of the police at this point. It is an inherently immoral institution that only serves the purpose of protection of property rights and turning poor people into slaves.

https://www.thenation.com/article/abolish-police-instead-lets-have-full-social-economic-and-political-equality/

From the perspective of someone who is white and female...no I don't agree with abolishing police. (Although granted I am aware there are people with similar demographics to me who are in favour of abolishing police such as Chelsea Manning).

I fully understand that there are police departments in need of reform, and that training of subconscious bias really needs to be a part of basic police training. But I also think there's a lot of vulnerable people who do currently benefit a fair bit from police. Police currently kind-of go off of intuition and stereotypes, which means they will protect old people and women (and yes often fail quite badly at protecting african american men). I would rather reform police departments than protect nobody.

There's pretty clear trends in statistics when you look across multiple countries that for any given crime rates of that crime will go up if punishment is lower, and rates of that crime will go up if enforcement is lower.

I will say, one of the things that the Nation seems to take issue with is that police are primarily enforcing property rights and business rights. And yeah, the Nation is a socialist/communist publication, so it makes sense that they would take issue with property and business rights. But it's not really the job of the police to determine the laws. They just enforce laws. Politicians write laws.

(Whether or not property rights/bussiness rights are a good thing is a different question).


Putting aside my issues with property rights etc I don't think it just a simple "just get rid of it" situation like with ICE, but I am for abolishing the police as it currently exists completely. I think that there are a lot of interesting ideas about what to do instead. One issue is obviously the training and hiring practices, but also the fact that we absolutely do not need heavily armed militarized police for the overwhelming majority of the work that falls under their jurisdiction (and the removal of the intimidation and threat of death/murder would certainly go a long way to addressing the problem). I think some of the work they do could even be handled by completely separate institutions. Not to mention the fact that the police make almost no effort to prevent/apprehend white collar criminals in comparison, despite it being a larger percentage of the crime being committed by FAR. Another major issue, and the major reason it should be abolished as it now stands, is that the police is completely undemocratic, with absolutely no accountability, lacking transparency, and without connection to the people that they "serve", pitting them against communities instead of feeling as though they are a part of them. Police should actually be serving these communities, working to reduce the crime rates by addressing the systemic causes of the crimes that plague their communities, as well as enforcing the laws. The safest places on Earth aren't the places with totalitarian police control by a bunch of fascist thugs, its the places where people have the least reason to commit crimes, because their community has systems in place to take care of more people, there is social trust, etc. Not completely related to the police itself, but obviously the prison system needs to be totally reformed as well at the same time.
metroid composite
09/12/18 9:28:17 AM
47
Nrrr posted...
Putting aside my issues with property rights etc I don't think it just a simple "just get rid of it" situation like with ICE

Well yeah, ICE is obviously easy to abolish because it didn't exist until what...15 years ago? It's easy to present a model of how America would work without it, it's called 2002.

Nrrr posted...
I think some of the work they do could even be handled by completely separate institutions.

Oh, yeah, that has been done elsewhere. They do that in Italy (or did last time I was there), where they have two different kinds of police. (Essentially traffic cops, and violent crime cops). I'm not sure how well it works, granted. The one thing I did notice was that it was suuuper gendered (the traffic cops were almost all women, and the violent crime cops were almost all men).

Nrrr posted...
Not completely related to the police itself, but obviously the prison system needs to be totally reformed as well at the same time.

Oh absolutely.

Eliminate private prisons immediately. Get rid of mandatory minimum sentencing. Change the focus to rehabilitation. Eliminate the cash bail system immediately. (And really should release a large number of the non-violent drug offenders).

Norway's system provides really impressive numbers, (20% recitivism compared to 77% in the US) so that's probably a good model to start from:

https://www.businessinsider.com/why-norways-prison-system-is-so-successful-2014-12
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metroid composite
09/13/18 1:36:52 AM
48
https://gritpost.com/un-paper-capitalism/

"UN Scientific Paper Suggests Capitalism Has to Die in Order for the Planet to Be Saved"

Ideally, such a plan would mean cooperation between countries around the globe to collectively restructure society with the end goal of eliminating carbon dioxide emissions entirely. Researchers gave a deadline for the United States and Europe to reduce carbon emissions to zero by 2040, and for the rest of the world to be at zero emissions by 2050.

In order to meet this goal, however, scientists cast doubt on the ability of renewable energy sources to be able to sustain humanitys current energy consumption rate.

The only viable solution to attain a goal of zero emissions is, according to the paper, for humanity to use substantially less energy. Scientists are calling on state governments with forward-thinking leaders to test radical solutions at the macro level, like a job guarantee similar to what Senator Bernie Sanders (I-Vermont) has proposed in the past.

[...]

Researchers ideas for how to phase out capitalism will likely be included in the UNs Global Sustainable Development Report, which will come out in 2019.

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StartTheMachine
09/13/18 2:44:14 AM
49
this is a politics topic I can get behind
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StartTheMachine
09/13/18 2:48:00 AM
50
Nrrr posted...
my mind also immediately went there until I clicked the link.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-still-prepared-to-call-for-war-crimes-investigation-into-tony-blair-a7042926.html

this is beautiful

holy shit, fuck Tony Blair and all, but he was pretty much just complicit. so many Bush administration officials would have a lot to answer to if this ever happened stateside.
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FL81
09/13/18 3:03:42 AM
51
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