Poll of the Day > So what if Trump actually wins again in 2020?

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darkknight109
09/11/18 4:37:55 AM
#51:


Kyuubi4269 posted...
darkknight109 posted...
America is pretty much the most right-wing developed nation in the world and it's not even particularly close. This is true politically, economically, and socially, almost to the point where it's unarguable. Britain is probably the next in line overall

The next in line would be Japan, but Japan still heavily subsidises healthcare and education.

Having spent plenty of time in Japan, I can tell you this is false.

Politically they're generally conservative, but socially they're extremely left wing - collectivist society and all. Economically they're a bit of a mixed bag - they have extremely low personal tax rates, but extremely high corporate tax rates. They also tend to work collaboratively, rather than competitively, and the keiretsu, in particular, are something that no strident right-wing economy would tolerate.
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Zeus
09/11/18 4:49:40 AM
#52:


darkknight109 posted...
Zeus posted...
Actually, Republicans were ALSO talking about moving to Canada.

And were roundly mocked for it. Threatening to move to Canada because you're unhappy a Democrat got elected (or, in the most lulzy example, because Obamacare got signed into law) is like threatening to move to Mexico because you don't like all the Spanish-speakers in Texas.


Changes nothing because they were *still* doing it. Otherwise, just like the Democrats, they believed that the candidate had dark intentions for the American people rather than just wanting different politics.

darkknight109 posted...
Zeus posted...
I think you're falsely attributing social services as the *only* demonstration of a nation's political leaning.

I think you missed the part of my post that said "politically, economically, and socially".

No matter the measure, America is at or near the top of rankings in pretty much every category of conservatism.


Well, those are some Bold claimS. I'm curious where you got that information from. Care to provide some statistics?

darkknight109 posted...
Kyuubi4269 posted...
darkknight109 posted...
America is pretty much the most right-wing developed nation in the world and it's not even particularly close. This is true politically, economically, and socially, almost to the point where it's unarguable. Britain is probably the next in line overall

The next in line would be Japan, but Japan still heavily subsidises healthcare and education.

Having spent plenty of time in Japan, I can tell you this is false.

Politically they're generally conservative, but socially they're extremely left wing - collectivist society and all. Economically they're a bit of a mixed bag - they have extremely low personal tax rates, but extremely high corporate tax rates. They also tend to work collaboratively, rather than competitively, and the keiretsu, in particular, are something that no strident right-wing economy would tolerate.


You have some really weird standards for your left/right paradigm. By your logic, an Amish community would be extremely leftwing because they raise barns together and work as a community.

As for Japan's "extremely left wing" social leanings, that collectivist society has essentially the same leanings as many conservative groups where it frowns upon public conduct (including tattoos) deemed completely acceptable in other nations. And if you think collectivism is "extremely left wing," then I'm guessing you think Christians are extremely left-wing as well because the Bible emphasizes the importance of cooperation, working closely with neighbors, community building, etc, all of which are reinforced by the church. In fact, given America's substantial religious culture, wouldn't that make America one of the most liberal nations on the planet using your collectivist standards as a guide?
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Kyuubi4269
09/11/18 4:58:11 AM
#53:


darkknight109 posted...
Politically they're generally conservative, but socially they're extremely left wing - collectivist society and all.

Collectivism isn't a left/right issue.

darkknight109 posted...
Economically they're a bit of a mixed bag - they have extremely low personal tax rates, but extremely high corporate tax rates.


Britain is the reverse.

darkknight109 posted...
the keiretsu, in particular, are something that no strident right-wing economy would tolerate.

It's an oligarchy securing stability in an aggressive capitalist system, this allows low-risk people to invest more aggressively in a competitive global market with high risk types.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_politics#Economics
Economics
In France after the French Revolution, the Right fought against the rising power of those who had grown rich through commerce and sought to preserve the rights of the hereditary nobility. They were uncomfortable with capitalism, the Enlightenment, individualism and industrialism and fought to retain traditional social hierarchies and institutions.


Sounds like Japan to me.
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Scloud posted...
Its like he wants two things at the same time.
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Magus 10
09/11/18 5:10:46 AM
#54:


Kyuubi4269 posted...
Sounds like Japan to me.


You realize that quote is about right-wing politics in the early 1800s, right?
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Kyuubi4269
09/11/18 5:22:50 AM
#55:


Magus 10 posted...
Kyuubi4269 posted...
Sounds like Japan to me.


You realize that quote is about right-wing politics in the early 1800s, right?

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realise that left and right swap hands every few hundred years, excuse me.
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Scloud posted...
Its like he wants two things at the same time.
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darkknight109
09/11/18 5:48:15 AM
#56:


Kyuubi4269 posted...
Collectivism isn't a left/right issue.

Debatable - collectivism, like most left-wing governance structures, prioritizes the needs of the group over the needs of the individual, while right-wing governance favours a much more individualistic model. Regardless, collectivism does breed left-wing social policies, which you yourself noted when you pointed out Japan's policies regarding health care and education.

Kyuubi4269 posted...
Sounds like Japan to me.

Sounds like you're relying on a definition of left-wing and right-wing that dates back to a time when right-wingers were monarchists and left-wingers were republicans.

Kyuubi4269 posted...
It's an oligarchy securing stability in an aggressive capitalist system, this allows low-risk people to invest more aggressively in a competitive global market with high risk types.

Japan has never been "aggressively capitalist" and the allies attempts to make it so in the post-WW2 world by dismantling the zaibatsu were exactly what created the keiretsu in the first place.

Zeus posted...
Otherwise, just like the Democrats, they believed that the candidate had dark intentions for the American people rather than just wanting different politics.

Except the Democrats were actually fleeing (or threatening to) because they wanted more leftist politics. That was the entire point. This is, again, why Republicans of the same hysterical bent tend to talk more about seceding (either individually or as a state) rather than moving somewhere, because there's nowhere for them to move to.

I'll note, at this juncture, you haven't bothered to name one of these so-called "more conservative" developed nations you believe exist.

Zeus posted...
Well, those are some Bold claimS. I'm curious where you got that information from. Care to provide some statistics?

I don't have anything in one concrete, easy to reference sheet. But let's grab a few examples, shall we?
-One of just eight developed countries where executions are still carried out (and the only one not in the Middle East or East Asia).
-One of the lowest rates of union memberships amongst developed countries
-The only developed country with no mandatory minimum annual paid leave
-Has one of the weakest social security nets of all developed countries
-Has one of the highest rates of religious belief (with strong trends towards social conservatism in that demographic) in the developed world
-Was previously one of the only - or, depending on the qualifications, THE only - country in the developed world without nationalized health care. May reclaim that status shortly, depending on what happens with the ACA.
-The only developed country that has rejected the Paris Climate Agreement

Just a random smattering off the top of my head.
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darkknight109
09/11/18 5:48:19 AM
#57:


Zeus posted...
You have some really weird standards for your left/right paradigm. By your logic, an Amish community would be extremely leftwing because they raise barns together and work as a community.

Yes, actually - that's called "Socialism". Many Christian fundamentalist sects practice it, even if they don't like to call it that.

On most social and political issues, of course, they are extremely right-wing, but socioeconomically they are quite left-wing.

Zeus posted...
As for Japan's "extremely left wing" social leanings, that collectivist society has essentially the same leanings as many conservative groups where it frowns upon public conduct (including tattoos) deemed completely acceptable in other nations.

Differences in what is and is not considered socially acceptable is not a left/right issue (with one caveat I'll get to in a second). There are communities in the world where a woman showing her breasts is completely normal, but baring her legs above the calf is considered extremely provocative. That does not make that society more or less right-wing than ours.

The caveat tends to be to what extent dissensions from social norms are accepted. Socially left-wing groups, which focus on the welfare of the group before the individual, are generally less tolerant of such deviations than more individualistic right-wing groups.

Zeus posted...
And if you think collectivism is "extremely left wing," then I'm guessing you think Christians are extremely left-wing as well because the Bible emphasizes the importance of cooperation, working closely with neighbors, community building, etc, all of which are reinforced by the church.

This is not an incorrect interpretation - as I mentioned earlier, these elements of Christianity are very left-wing. Jesus was basically preaching proto-socialism, even though most socialists and most Christians hate hearing that.

Zeus posted...
In fact, given America's substantial religious culture, wouldn't that make America one of the most liberal nations on the planet using your collectivist standards as a guide?

Take it from a Christian, whatever it is that's being preached across much of the US - particularly in evangelist circles- is not Christianity as I recognize it. Things like the Prosperity Gospel, which has a frightening number of adherents in America, isn't so much Christianity as a cult dressed up in Christianity's trappings and using it to separate the desperate from their money - that's not just bad faith, that's flat-out blasphemy.

I go to a pretty apolitical church in a pretty apolitical denomination of Christianity. I've been attending for decades and I can count the number of times political issues were raised on one hand; one of those times was a few months ago when good ol' Jeff Sessions was going on about how scripture supports the Trump administration's family separations on the border (which required a pretty tortured reading of the passage of scripture he quoted, including carefully excising it from the passages on either side that made it clear that authority was only godly if it acted in a godly way). Not sure which book he reads every Sunday, but it sure as hell isn't the Bible, because I find it difficult to believe that he missed the multitude of passages talking about caring for "the poor, the sick, the widow, and the foreigner." And let me tell you, both the preacher and congregation in my church were pretty steamed that someone was using the Bible to try and justify that sort of malice.

Honestly, if Christians in America actually started behaving like Christians your country would be in a much better place.
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Kyuubi4269
09/11/18 6:01:51 AM
#58:


darkknight109 posted...
Debatable - collectivism, like most left-wing governance structures, prioritizes the needs of the group over the needs of the individual, while right-wing governance favours a much more individualistic model. Regardless, collectivism does breed left-wing social policies, which you yourself noted when you pointed out Japan's policies regarding health care and education.

Right wingers drop in to groups in times of need to regain stability then seperate to free themselves of potential anchors. Left wingers see the potential for everyone working together yielding the most fruit, but separate to maintain their individuality.

Collectivism is a tool, it isn't part of either side.

darkknight109 posted...
Sounds like you're relying on a definition of left-wing and right-wing that dates back to a time when right-wingers were monarchists and left-wingers were republicans.

Again irrelevant, left and right work alongside what suits the needs of the time. As the world changes, their allegiance does too.

darkknight109 posted...
Japan has never been "aggressively capitalist" and the allies attempts to make it so in the post-WW2 world by dismantling the zaibatsu were exactly what created the keiretsu in the first place.

They had a financial monopoly that outside forces came to disassemble so they made an equivalent to maintain the financial dominance they wanted, how is that not aggressive capitalism?
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Scloud posted...
Its like he wants two things at the same time.
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darkknight109
09/11/18 6:17:03 AM
#59:


Kyuubi4269 posted...
They had a financial monopoly that outside forces came to disassemble so they made an equivalent to maintain the financial dominance they wanted, how is that not aggressive capitalism?

Monopolies are antithetical to the core of capitalism because they stifle competition and short-circuit the laws of supply and demand.

One of the core arguments of capitalism is that the public is best served by multiple competitors striving to provide a single good or service. Each one will be pressure by market forces into offering the best quality for the lowest cost, else their competitors will outsell them. This model requires competition in order to function; where monopolies or monopsonies form, capitalism suffers because the laws of supply and demand are no longer in effect.

Kyuubi4269 posted...
Right wingers drop in to groups in times of need to regain stability then seperate to free themselves of potential anchors. Left wingers see the potential for everyone working together yielding the most fruit, but separate to maintain their individuality.

All you've basically said here is that right-wingers sometimes use left-wing behaviour and left-wingers sometimes use right-wing behaviour. The fact that right-wingers sometimes make use of it does not mean that collectivism is not a left-wing behaviour.

It is not coincidence that collectivist societies also tend to have thriving socialist and/or communist parties or movements (as seen in Japan, as well as most other East Asian countries).
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Kyuubi4269
09/11/18 6:34:05 AM
#60:


darkknight109 posted...
Monopolies are antithetical to the core of capitalism because they stifle competition and short-circuit the laws of supply and demand.

One of the core arguments of capitalism is that the public is best served by multiple competitors striving to provide a single good or service. Each one will be pressure by market forces into offering the best quality for the lowest cost, else their competitors will outsell them. This model requires competition in order to function; where monopolies or monopsonies form, capitalism suffers because the laws of supply and demand are no longer in effect.

Supply and demand are in effect, but it is easily corrupted. This is not such an issue in Japan as they are collectivist traditionalists so are willing to completely shut out those who don't behave and work as a group to break them.

darkknight109 posted...
All you've basically said here is that right-wingers sometimes use left-wing behaviour and left-wingers sometimes use right-wing behaviour. The fact that right-wingers sometimes make use of it does not mean that collectivism is not a left-wing behaviour.

Left-wing behaviour. They behave as the environment demands, there's no set method, just a set goal.

darkknight109 posted...
It is not coincidence that collectivist societies also tend to have thriving socialist and/or communist parties or movements (as seen in Japan, as well as most other East Asian countries).


Japan has been lead by the same party, formed of two right-wing parties for the last, what, 60 years? The other options are fucking socialists, communists and the "let's just join China, guys!" party who all lose as Japan is not strongly socially left wing as you say.
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Scloud posted...
Its like he wants two things at the same time.
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helIy
09/11/18 6:59:57 AM
#61:


the people that say "trump gets things done" kinda make think they're just trying to troll

because trump hasn't actually done anything.
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AllstarSniper32
09/11/18 7:18:02 AM
#62:


helIy posted...
because trump hasn't actually done anything.

He's posted a lot on Twitter.
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Peterass
09/11/18 8:24:48 AM
#63:


Omg, we might have to endure 4 more years of economic prosperity..Please, no. Make it stop.
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SunWuKung420
09/11/18 8:25:33 AM
#64:


World war 3 most likely.
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Nightengale
09/11/18 8:38:28 AM
#65:


Blighboy posted...
Cacciato posted...
I honestly dont think he has the ability to live to the end of a second term.

This is a serious concern

If McCain had been elected in 2008 he might have died before 2016 (given the stress of the job) and you'd have President Palin

It's baffling Trump is as healthy as he is all things considered

I think they basically have him on a really crazy diet for that exact reason

Still considering his age and his lifestyle up to this point it could be too little too late
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ParanoidObsessive
09/11/18 9:06:03 AM
#66:


Kyuubi4269 posted...
ParanoidObsessive posted...
IceDragon77 posted...
Literally a fucking Big Mac could run for president and beat Trump at this point. His approval rating is fucking rock bottom, only the actual insane support him.

That's precisely the sort of thing people were saying during the last election as well.

Hillary is no Big Mac.

I agree - the Democrats SHOULD have run a Big Mac instead of Hillary. More people would have voted for it.



helIy posted...
the people that say "trump gets things done" kinda make think they're just trying to troll

because trump hasn't actually done anything.

That's odd. As far as I can tell, according to the Internet, he's overturned every law passed in the last 200 years and instituted a fascist regime that will ruin the nation for decades to come. Like a never-ending stream of plots and schemes specifically devoted to be as evil as possible.

Like, if he had a mustache, he'd probably be twirling it 24-7.


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Dikitain
09/11/18 9:28:20 AM
#67:


So what if Trump actually wins again in 2020?


Que me laughing hysterically at my Facebook wall like I did when he won in 2016.
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Questionmarktarius
09/11/18 9:46:28 AM
#68:


darkknight109 posted...
Yes, actually - that's called "Socialism". Many Christian fundamentalist sects practice it, even if they don't like to call it that.

Nah.
Amish communities are probably closer to actual communism.
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kangolcone
09/11/18 9:54:44 AM
#69:


I'm a progressive lefty and let me tell you. He is going to win again as long as he decides to run.

The Democratic Party is such a mess that I'm fairly certain they are going to put another lackluster candidate out there. Not that I think Hillary was a lackluster candidate in terms of qualifications, but there were too many preconceived notions about her entering the process.
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SmokeMassTree
09/11/18 10:06:50 AM
#70:


IF



Y'all need to get out more if you honestly think trump won't win again in 2020. The support from real Americans is strong. Good luck getting a W for the next few elections btw. Republicans are running the show for the next couple decades.
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kangolcone
09/11/18 10:09:33 AM
#71:


SmokeMassTree posted...
IF



Y'all need to get out more if you honestly think trump won't win again in 2020. The support from real Americans is strong. Good luck getting a W for the next few elections btw. Republicans are running the show for the next couple decades.


What's a real American?
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Questionmarktarius
09/11/18 10:10:20 AM
#72:


kangolcone posted...
SmokeMassTree posted...
IF



Y'all need to get out more if you honestly think trump won't win again in 2020. The support from real Americans is strong. Good luck getting a W for the next few elections btw. Republicans are running the show for the next couple decades.


What's a real American?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eX_k5_egUAo" data-time="
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ParanoidObsessive
09/11/18 10:14:11 AM
#73:


Questionmarktarius posted...
kangolcone posted...
What's a real American?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eX_k5_egUAo" data-time="

If you hadn't posted it, I would have.


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OhhhJa
09/11/18 11:03:16 AM
#74:


Andromicus posted...
Y'all know the economy is gonna tank eventually here and he will lose the only accomplished he has

I'm sure glad we have a random gfaqs shitposter that is master of the economy
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kangolcone
09/11/18 11:37:36 AM
#75:


OhhhJa posted...
Andromicus posted...
Y'all know the economy is gonna tank eventually here and he will lose the only accomplished he has

I'm sure glad we have a random gfaqs shitposter that is master of the economy


Factors are pretty clear though. A strong stock market that isn't accompanied by wage growth usually is the result of a bubble being created. Economic bubbles always burst at some point.
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OhhhJa
09/11/18 12:38:43 PM
#76:


kangolcone posted...
OhhhJa posted...
Andromicus posted...
Y'all know the economy is gonna tank eventually here and he will lose the only accomplished he has

I'm sure glad we have a random gfaqs shitposter that is master of the economy


Factors are pretty clear though. A strong stock market that isn't accompanied by wage growth usually is the result of a bubble being created. Economic bubbles always burst at some point.

We havent had any real wage growth in years
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kangolcone
09/11/18 12:43:25 PM
#77:


It's grew more than 2% under Obama after falling 5% under Bush 2.

It is again on the decline under Trump even though the market is way up.
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Phantom_Nook
09/11/18 12:56:18 PM
#78:


SmokeMassTree posted...
IF



Y'all need to get out more if you honestly think trump won't win again in 2020. The support from real Americans is strong. Good luck getting a W for the next few elections btw. Republicans are running the show for the next couple decades.

who are "real Americans"? the majority of Americans hate Trump.
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Questionmarktarius
09/11/18 12:58:44 PM
#79:


Phantom_Nook posted...
who are "real Americans"?

We already covered this.
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OhhhJa
09/11/18 1:33:14 PM
#80:


kangolcone posted...
It's grew more than 2% under Obama after falling 5% under Bush 2.

It is again on the decline under Trump even though the market is way up.

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/wage-growth
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Zareth
09/11/18 2:38:25 PM
#81:


kangolcone posted...
The Democratic Party is such a mess that I'm fairly certain they are going to put another lackluster candidate out there.

Yeah. Democrats hate each other almost as much as they hate moderates and conservatives.
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Muscles
09/11/18 2:52:08 PM
#82:


kangolcone posted...
I'm a progressive lefty and let me tell you. He is going to win again as long as he decides to run.

The Democratic Party is such a mess that I'm fairly certain they are going to put another lackluster candidate out there. Not that I think Hillary was a lackluster candidate in terms of qualifications, but there were too many preconceived notions about her entering the process.

Democrats should run a libertarian, or not run and let a libertarian run

A libertarian wll get everyone on the left and most of the moderates that went with trump just because he's not Hillary

Its baffling how no one caters to the moderates of the country instead of going to the extremes
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kangolcone
09/11/18 2:55:46 PM
#83:


Muscles posted...
kangolcone posted...
I'm a progressive lefty and let me tell you. He is going to win again as long as he decides to run.

The Democratic Party is such a mess that I'm fairly certain they are going to put another lackluster candidate out there. Not that I think Hillary was a lackluster candidate in terms of qualifications, but there were too many preconceived notions about her entering the process.

Democrats should run a libertarian, or not run and let a libertarian run

A libertarian wll get everyone on the left and most of the moderates that went with trump just because he's not Hillary

Its baffling how no one caters to the moderates of the country instead of going to the extremes


Except libertarians are the worst and I have no idea why you would think the left would vote for them.

The scary part is that Hillary is a moderate but the democrats have been so bad at framing the debate that you think she's extreme.
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Muscles
09/11/18 3:02:16 PM
#84:


kangolcone posted...
Muscles posted...
kangolcone posted...
I'm a progressive lefty and let me tell you. He is going to win again as long as he decides to run.

The Democratic Party is such a mess that I'm fairly certain they are going to put another lackluster candidate out there. Not that I think Hillary was a lackluster candidate in terms of qualifications, but there were too many preconceived notions about her entering the process.

Democrats should run a libertarian, or not run and let a libertarian run

A libertarian wll get everyone on the left and most of the moderates that went with trump just because he's not Hillary

Its baffling how no one caters to the moderates of the country instead of going to the extremes


Except libertarians are the worst and I have no idea why you would think the left would vote for them.

The scary part is that Hillary is a moderate but the democrats have been so bad at framing the debate that you think she's extreme.

Libertarians are the best, they are all about the individual, and freedom, they are definitely not authoritarian like the big 2

Also Democrats would vote for a libertarian because they are more left than trump
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Muscles
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