Board 8 > Mercenaries 5 Unveiling Topic: Now Hiring! [New Game]

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Page List: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 10
Johnbobb
09/12/18 10:41:55 PM
#51:


KanzarisKelshen posted...
If we can make it so new players don't pratfall into large losing streaks right out the gate simply because they have less experience with getting their fingers on the voters' pulse (like thinking you can win against Agent 47 and Ridley with Little Mac and Bowser)

I went straight out of the gate arguing Kirby & Sonic v. Leon Kennedy & Samus

I lost but not by as much as I should've
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KanzarisKelshen
09/12/18 10:50:32 PM
#52:


Lopen posted...
It's a recharge that costs more, is basically the only difference. I think Chris is correct though that hoarding ability uses is fundamentally a big part of why there isn't more fighting, and with enough fodder mercs to "exhaust" you'd still run into that problem.

I'd rather resources to use more abilities be an up front price rather than just a potential one that needs to be punished. Spending GP as Chris said to do it works, but I think that your counterpoint of there becoming a point where the spending GP to earn a win is foolish and it'd be largely a trap mechanic. Spending AP that you don't auto-replenish works.

Ultimately the problem is that exhausting mercs you aren't necessarily going to use is only potentially a cost, which doesn't actually fix the problem.


Hm. What if you had to exhaust the merc who uses the ability? Would that help any? Like say I want to use Suika's drunkenness to really seal a win but I capped out already - so I can exhaust the merc she's attached to, but it means they don't fight next week. Alternatively, what about having to exhaust mercs preemptively, during Peacetime, to have more AP for this week (and they have to be rosterable so no 'oh we fought in high tier last week and this one's low, I'll tell Dante to sit it out this week and the next')?

Lopen posted...
Rolled crap on the declaration order? Have a bonus AP for the week.

On a really long losing streak? Have a single bonus AP that you can spend as you choose.

Facing a team that has Yumizuru on it? Bonus AP. Just because.

Dante is a genius. I knew I brought him in as the unofficial admin for a reason.


This I agree with BTW. Seems like a solid way to add 'you have a chance' mechanics to the game without really compromising the value in actually being the better player.

Tirofog posted...
Because it hasn't been asked yet - what are your current plans for tiers/paydowns? I know that was probably the most contentious topic of rules discussion last time things were actually discussed.


Fight fire with fire. Paydowns were an extremely good thing for the game, because they let you build your team the way you wanted to - the problem is there was no counter if 'the way you wanted to' was 'I'm buying a ton of low upkeep ability spammers to clinch my matches with hax'. So my thinking is that you can spend GP to counter paydowns by bringing in extra mercs from the unbought pool for a day - think like placing a bounty on a specific paydown's head that makes other mercs temporarily join the hunt for them. If we go with an AP system (which is a pretty great idea and I'm liking it a lot), you could either get 1 AP to use their abilities with (and only theirs), or no AP, as balance dictates. The idea is that it should be possible to make a lowbie heavy team just like it was to make a high heavy one in M4 - I want teambuilding to be an expression of the leader's vision, and not a solved equation where there's one right answer.
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KanzarisKelshen
09/12/18 10:51:50 PM
#53:


Lopen posted...
Rolled crap on the declaration order? Have a bonus AP for the week.

On a really long losing streak? Have a single bonus AP that you can spend as you choose.

Facing a team that has Yumizuru on it? Bonus AP. Just because.

Dante is a genius. I knew I brought him in as the unofficial admin for a reason.


Addendum to this: What if you got bonus AP (and possibly a few extra roster slots) if you fought a mid or high match using units below the tier? Like, just imagine. Suddenly building Team Lowbie is a real possibility and not a bad meme Montezuma makes you believe is kinda possible.
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Lopen
09/12/18 10:52:29 PM
#54:


Yes! Now you're thinking with AP.
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DeathChicken
09/12/18 10:54:04 PM
#55:


I hated paydowns so much. For one, they were mandatory since if you didn't bring one of your higher guys down, the other guy was going to and then you lose due to "Voters only look at the shiniest guy on the field" syndrome. For two, they enforced TOLATSGOTF for the same reason and made all low tier fights into none of these guys matter except the higher upkeep guy who shouldn't be here
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KanzarisKelshen
09/12/18 10:58:30 PM
#56:


DeathChicken posted...
I hated paydowns so much. For one, they were mandatory since if you didn't bring one of your higher guys down, the other guy was going to and then you lose due to "Voters only look at the shiniest guy on the field" syndrome. For two, they enforced TOLATSGOTF for the same reason and made all low tier fights into none of these guys matter except the higher upkeep guy who shouldn't be here


Yeah. This is why I'm thinking a 'bounty' system might be a good counter. Like say I pay Sora down to Low, right? Normally it just sucks to fight him because he'll rock any three lowbie characters really hard so he ends up being much stronger than any combo of on-tier dudes you can bring in...but what if you say 'bounty on Sora's head!' and come wartime you get to pick up Scorpion and Jigglypuff from the unbought pull to sleep + pull him into your team and get him outta the way? Suddenly you don't need to have a paydown of your own to compete. You can fight with your squad of low upkeep characters without having to compromise. I firmly believe we can make this kind of system work, especially in the context of using Ability Points, and that it's the way forward. Every kind of team should be viable. I don't want to leave any sort of playstyle behind.
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Johnbobb
09/12/18 10:59:06 PM
#57:


DeathChicken posted...
I hated paydowns so much. For one, they were mandatory since if you didn't bring one of your higher guys down, the other guy was going to and then you lose due to "Voters only look at the shiniest guy on the field" syndrome. For two, they enforced TOLATSGOTF for the same reason and made all low tier fights into none of these guys matter except the higher upkeep guy who shouldn't be here

yeah I 100% agree with this

paydowns kinda suck and were inevitable in almost every non-high tier match
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Alany
09/12/18 10:59:19 PM
#58:


Honestly if you're going to be fighting Paydowns and encouraging team lowbie, I think we should personally allow low upkeeps to be fielded for half the slot in medium matches and a quarter in high. Same for medium to high, set their slot usage to half with zero cost to the player.

If 6-7s don't cost exorbitant amount this should make it more balanced. After all, I doubt anyone is going to say Dante will lose to 12, 3 upkeeps.
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KamikazePotato
09/12/18 10:59:38 PM
#59:


Popping in to say that paydowns were the worst part of Mercs 4.
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Lopen
09/12/18 11:01:03 PM
#60:


I think paydowns are still a neat mechanic, they were just too effective for what they were-- not enough cost. I like the idea of them triggering and interacting with the fatigue mechanic I was talking about before.

And also

FACING A TEAM THAT HAS PAID DOWN UNITS? BONUS AP.

WE COULD EVEN MAKE PAYING DOWN COST SOME OF YOUR PASSIVE AP FOR THE WEEK.

NOTHING THIS MECHANIC CAN'T FIX.
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KanzarisKelshen
09/12/18 11:02:46 PM
#61:


Alany posted...
Honestly if you're going to be fighting Paydowns and encouraging team lowbie, I think we should personally allow low upkeeps to be fielded for half the slot in medium matches and a quarter in high. Same for medium to high, set their slot usage to half with zero cost to the player.

If 6-7s don't cost exorbitant amount this should make it more balanced. After all, I doubt anyone is going to say Dante will lose to 12, 3 upkeeps.


Not when there's ability parity, no

but if Dante is left drunk, crippled, berserked and with an overwhelming need to pee, things are suddenly different, which is what I'd like

(that said lowbies costing less slots in high is something we won't be doing for sure because it just encourages abuse of abilityspam. Lord knows I made out like a bandit with Pudge and Big and one of those fuckers even cost a full slot!)
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Alany
09/12/18 11:03:33 PM
#62:


KanzarisKelshen posted...
because it just encourages abuse of abilityspam

Which won't be an issue with AP. Hence why I'm suggesting it.
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KanzarisKelshen
09/12/18 11:07:12 PM
#63:


Alany posted...
KanzarisKelshen posted...
because it just encourages abuse of abilityspam

Which won't be an issue with AP. Hence why I'm suggesting it.


Hm. Fair point. Man this mechanic is JUICY.

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So to set the mechanics chat aside for a bit, allow me to make a list. The following people have offered to help so far...

1) Scare (Builds/Maybe)
2) Kamek (PR/Builds/Maybe)
3) Gravy
4) Johnbobb (Builds/Maybe)
5) DC (Maybe)

This is a pretty good start. Keep 'em coming guys!
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JeffreyRaze
09/12/18 11:11:25 PM
#64:


Oh man, tag. I'm not sure I've got the fortitude to be a player again, but damn me if you haven't caught my attention.
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Lopen
09/12/18 11:12:33 PM
#65:


Here's the reason why you can't outright be rid of pay downs btw. The burden of balanced team composition, particularly in the early-mid game, becomes too high without it. Unless everyone went lowbie heavy, you'd have a bunch of matches where it's 2v0, or 3v1 stomp, or whatever. This is what happens if you tier lock until teams have like 10 mercs each.

If you don't tier lock at all, then the weaker mercs become obsolete at all times. And at the same time no one wants to wait till 2/3s of the way into the game to see Samus Aran have a match either.

So paydowns are a necessary evil I think, but they need to be balanced properly. With new mechanics they could be, I feel. You could also make them a thing you could do early game, but gradually phase it out as the game progresses, since as I said I think once you have pretty big rosters it becomes less of a problem.
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KanzarisKelshen
09/12/18 11:23:06 PM
#66:


What Lopen said sums up my feelings, with the addition that I think it's just cool to be able to use your strong guys more often than once in a blue moon assuming it's balanced right (accounting for the 'voters look at shiniest guy' factor, for example). I'm very biased here, but a lot of my favorite characters are mid and high tier, and the idea of a game where they're basically show pieces because I use them very little kinda sucks. I want them to be reliable, but I also want Lloyd Irving, Nathan Drake and other 3/weeks and down to be viable too. The idea is to really make sure that you can build a team of your favorites and win, if you can sway the voters, which to me is the platonic ideal of Mercs we should strive for.
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Drakeryn
09/12/18 11:28:41 PM
#67:


Lopen posted...
I also think that if you wanted more fights to go to topic another way to help would be to give incentives for not just winning but also for gaining some amount of support in losses. Like if you get 30% or 40% of the votes you get some sorta bonus as the loser. Things like that. Also stuff with winning streaks and bounties. Like some bonus when you win many times in a row and some bonus for beating guys who win many times in a row. That would hamstring trading wins as you'd never gain the bonus for winning in a row.

I like this.

KanzarisKelshen posted...
I think it's just cool to be able to use your strong guys more often than once in a blue moon assuming it's balanced right (accounting for the 'voters look at shiniest guy' factor, for example). I'm very biased here, but a lot of my favorite characters are mid and high tier, and the idea of a game where they're basically show pieces because I use them very little kinda sucks.

I agree with this too. I know there were balance issues, but from the point of view of having fun matches, I don't really want the true lowbie 5v5.
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DeathChicken
09/12/18 11:29:03 PM
#68:


I actually think it was more glaring in Mid than it was in Low. A 4 sitting in Low is irritating, but wouldn't necessarily mean all of your 3s in the fight were ignored. In Mid you were burning a slot to bring in like, Revan and shit. At that point the fight totally becomes "Revan eats all these jobbers, the other 6 eats his jobbers and this may as well have been a one on one duel"
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KanzarisKelshen
09/12/18 11:34:45 PM
#69:


DeathChicken posted...
I actually think it was more glaring in Mid than it was in Low. A 4 sitting in Low is irritating, but wouldn't necessarily mean all of your 3s in the fight were ignored. In Mid you were burning a slot to bring in like, Revan and shit. At that point the fight totally becomes "Revan eats all these jobbers, the other 6 eats his jobbers and this may as well have been a one on one duel"


Or notably, Dante. I feel like it can be a mercs adage if I say 'Anyone who wants abilities to be weaker has never had to beat Dante in an earlygame match', lol. I think there's definitely some very big value in making sure you can always use an on-tier squad and still win vs paydowns, through some combo of ability hax and possibly gaining more roster slots or whatever.
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greengravy294
09/12/18 11:39:04 PM
#70:


I beat dante in mid with my high tier mercs
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MasaomiHouzuki
09/12/18 11:41:59 PM
#71:


I don't know if I like vote counts being tied with objective results; people complained about votes even when they didn't matter on the margin and I think it'll subtly encourage voter badgering.
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KanzarisKelshen
09/12/18 11:44:30 PM
#72:


MasaomiHouzuki posted...
I don't know if I like vote counts being tied with objective results; people complained about votes even when they didn't matter on the margin and I think it'll subtly encourage voter badgering.


Do you have any suggestions to reproduce the 'close match factor' without encouraging it, newbie? Because it's a pretty good fighting incentive in my mind, and making fights less psychologically draining on leaders can only be a good thing. Mercs shouldn't be so sanity-ravaging as it is now, after all.
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Kamekguy
09/12/18 11:51:49 PM
#73:


Eh, y'know what? Set me up as a 'yes' for modding, if you wouldn't mind. I find that the anxiousness I feel waiting for each wartime and peacetime is probably a lot more counteractive to my enjoyment than being the one who pulls the trigger. And I like dispute solving and the like and being able to actually vote in every match.

I mean, I'm better at tinkering with a system than I am establishing one, but I'd be glad to bounce ideas off of and help however I can in interacting with rulings, models, and likely maintaining the pbworks at the very least.
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DeathChicken
09/13/18 12:11:07 AM
#74:


On a different note, I'm watching Slowbeef repeatedly lose to him and we totally need a Mr. Shakedown merc who beats the money out of you
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Lopen
09/13/18 12:18:03 AM
#75:


DeathChicken posted...
I actually think it was more glaring in Mid than it was in Low. A 4 sitting in Low is irritating, but wouldn't necessarily mean all of your 3s in the fight were ignored. In Mid you were burning a slot to bring in like, Revan and shit. At that point the fight totally becomes "Revan eats all these jobbers, the other 6 eats his jobbers and this may as well have been a one on one duel"


You might be onto something here. Part of the solution might be less removing paydowns and more limiting them.

I thought 4s to low were completely fine pretty much at all the time for example.

6s to mid were kinda too strong for the price paid. 7s to mid actually weren't too ridiculous when you think about it cause the cost was actually high. Sure Dante usually soloed but it cost a lot to do so. If it was on a slightly less dominant merc than Dante it might actually not matter as much.

Like if you just changed the mechanic to:

4s can go to low for an additional roster slot + 4 GP
6s can go to mid for two additional roster slots + 12 GP (basically making them 7s for paydowns mechanically)

No other paydowns are allowed

Rather than making it a super generic thing, it might just work out of the box.

But I like the idea of trying to limit them through other mechanics as well instead of just upping the GP cost and hard walling more mercs off.
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greengravy294
09/13/18 12:19:41 AM
#76:


so I've decided i'm playing mercenaries V: the phantom pain in the butt

It's my destiny to win
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Eddv
09/13/18 12:23:54 AM
#77:


I offer my services as a player but have no interest in joining the admin team
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KanzarisKelshen
09/13/18 12:26:18 AM
#78:


Eddv posted...
I offer my services as a player but have no interest in joining the admin team


on this note

While it will be a while until we have a full game ready to launch (if I can get enough admins to get this ball rolling, even), we will probably post status updates as we work, and may even need to test-drive some characters to determine if they're good for release or not. For this reason, we may ask potential players to represent a team if the need arises. The idea is to not go radio silent once the admin team is assembled but rather keep people posted on what we're doing to some degree, to maintain hype.
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DoomTheGyarados
09/13/18 12:29:06 AM
#79:


Paydowns should have a stated parameter reduction of like 20% imo
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Sir Chris
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greengravy294
09/13/18 12:30:28 AM
#80:


FUCK PARAMETER REDUCTIONS btw (and increases)
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Lopen
09/13/18 12:31:22 AM
#81:


Parameter reductions (a nebulous debuff that people don't properly define I don't even really want as an ability if I can avoid it) built into the mechanics of the game might be a bad enough idea to offset the good will from your partial credit for the super awesome ability point idea
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Arti
09/13/18 12:32:11 AM
#82:


I will 100% not play, but I could work on some builds if needed

I promise I won't make them too obscure
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DoomTheGyarados
09/13/18 12:32:46 AM
#83:


I am spitballing. I just came up with it. My other idea was only 4s in low and no pay downs in mid and actually in make leaders build teams.
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KanzarisKelshen
09/13/18 12:32:54 AM
#84:


Arti posted...
I will 100% not play, but I could work on some builds if needed

I promise I won't make them too obscure


I expect no less than five Atelier builds on my desk week one, don't let me down Arti
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Eddv
09/13/18 12:33:03 AM
#85:


Can Lopen be accidental lead admin again?

Because I am getting some serious nostalgia rn with him smacking down Chris.
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trdl23
09/13/18 12:33:27 AM
#86:


I have my own place now, which means I can be much more active and help more. Sign me up for the admin team, Kanz. I can smooth ability rulings / comprehensive rules as well.
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Eddv
09/13/18 12:34:09 AM
#87:


Oh man Totori build - after Fetch she was my MOST WANTED merc
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ScareChan
09/13/18 12:34:10 AM
#88:


Johnbobb posted...
KanzarisKelshen posted...
If we can make it so new players don't pratfall into large losing streaks right out the gate simply because they have less experience with getting their fingers on the voters' pulse (like thinking you can win against Agent 47 and Ridley with Little Mac and Bowser)

I went straight out of the gate arguing Kirby & Sonic v. Leon Kennedy & Samus

I lost but not by as much as I should've


I at least got people to listen to my Mac vs Hitman logic. It set me up to learn how I needed to argue early on
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Lopen
09/13/18 12:36:20 AM
#89:


Eddv posted...
Can Lopen be accidental lead admin again?


This is why I refuse to commit to help at all in an official capacity (though I have made like 50 posts in here expanding on COOL IDEAS that I encourage Kanzaris to use in some form)

I do think Kanzaris has better work ethic than the entire m4 admin team though so it probably wouldn't happen but I can't risk this

That and I kinda sorta might want to play. Draft merx was fun! (Mostly)
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greengravy294
09/13/18 12:38:08 AM
#90:


i wanna fuckin rough you up logan "lopen" penn, we got a matter to settle ever since you were too coward to face my draft merx team in an exhibition bo3 (aka u too scared to be pwned)
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Lopen
09/13/18 12:40:57 AM
#91:


I'll make a suicide squad devoted to eliminating greengravy294 from the game, then destroying myself

Then I can join the admin team after the mission has been accomplished

Not the worst plan
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Johnbobb
09/13/18 12:40:59 AM
#92:


can't wait to tumble backwards blindly into the quarterfinals
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KanzarisKelshen
09/13/18 12:42:29 AM
#93:


That and I kinda sorta might want to play. Draft merx was fun! (Mostly)


This might be the most ringing endorsement I've ever heard for draftmerx guddamn

the Macho Man himself wanting to play M5 is getting ME hyped for doing this job
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DoomTheGyarados
09/13/18 12:44:49 AM
#94:


Eddv posted...
Can Lopen be accidental lead admin again?

Because I am getting some serious nostalgia rn with him smacking down Chris.


What. Lopen almost never stopped as a planner until I went insane.
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Lopen
09/13/18 12:45:27 AM
#95:


Oooh yeah yeah oooh dig it yeahhh...

(You know it says something when "I enjoyed Draft merx" is a better endorsement than "better work ethic than the entire M4 admin team")
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ScareChan
09/13/18 12:46:22 AM
#96:


draft mercs was awesome

my favorite part was Lopen eyeing my bass with Jealousy because it was everything he wanted
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Lopen
09/13/18 12:47:51 AM
#97:


It had a seraphim and I thought that was really cool
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DoomTheGyarados
09/13/18 12:48:52 AM
#98:


Like can we be real the entire reason why I lost mercs 4 is because someone I cared about died and I did not cope with it at all <_<.
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Sir Chris
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KanzarisKelshen
09/13/18 12:50:22 AM
#99:


DoomTheGyarados posted...
Like can we be real the entire reason why I lost mercs 4 is because someone I cared about died and I did not cope with it at all <_<.


My plot armor was very strong yes

(but seriously it was kinda sad that happened, almost everyone I was 'supposed' to face bailed except boko)
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DoomTheGyarados
09/13/18 12:51:35 AM
#100:


I legit do not remember anything past week 30 beyond:

1. lots of crying
2. lots of rage
3. Ridley?
4. Beating Kanz once and quitting
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