Board 8 > Mercenaries 5 Unveiling Topic: Now Hiring! [New Game]

(+) Yeah! (+)

KanzarisKelshen posted...

MasaomiHouzuki posted...

I don't know if I like vote counts being tied with objective results; people complained about votes even when they didn't matter on the margin and I think it'll subtly encourage voter badgering.

Do you have any suggestions to reproduce the 'close match factor' without encouraging it, newbie? Because it's a pretty good fighting incentive in my mind, and making fights less psychologically draining on leaders can only be a good thing. Mercs shouldn't be so sanity-ravaging as it is now, after all.

Dumb heuristics do most of the work of smart heuristics.

Why not use some arbitrary ability power + battle worth metric that maps onto GP? e.g. if the total cooldown (or AP) is within 1 or whatever of each other we deem that to be very close, and if the total upkeep fielded (or quadratically summed upkeep) is close.

So 20 AP vs 20 AP would pay more than 0 AP vs 20 AP. And uh, using quadratically summed, doing five 1 upkeeps vs one 5 upkeep without abilities would be more like 20 upkeep advantage in favor of the 5 upkeeper (using the quadratically summed method).

I leave ability /battle worth conversions open.

I think Kanzaris could have beaten you either way. Life events putting you on tilt made it easier for him to be sure but the fact that he had a path to victory at all in a 1v8 says something. I think I proved in Mercs 3 that you can be tilted by purely in game stuff as well so I mean, it's certainly possible he could've exposed that weakpoint regardless.
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I think I might wanna play, if that's okay.
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Hm. Worth considering maybe, yeah.

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On a different note, speaking about draftmerx allstars, potential (emphasis: POTENTIAL) new ability for a merc y'all love...

Not Yet, Snake! It's Not Over Yet!: Some people die hard, and no one dies harder than Liquid. He will start today's battle in Metal Gear Sahelanthropus, but upon being defeated, Sahelanthropus will instead explode harmlessly, being replaced by a spontaneously appearing Metal Gear REX. This process will repeat again for the HIND-D, and then the MGS1 Jeep. Only once Liquid sustains fatal damage while riding the Jeep and is left to fight unarmed on foot will he finally stay down for good. Afterwards, he will be injured for the duration of the following week, as all the damage sustained will finally catch up to him.

Tags: Injury, Vehicle Swap, Mid-Battle, Personal.

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The only thing I actually may want to suggest is hidden voting.

As in you PM your vote, and if you want to retract/change. I think matches can get really volatile and heated just from vote posts. I know I've gone off the handle like that and I'm not the only one.

I know it's done in topic to encourage discussion but yeah, i dunno, just a thought.
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SPOT WEAKNESS ONLY ENRAGES THE GREMLIN NOB YOU FOOOOOOOLLLLL

never roll lagavulin

MajinZidane posted...

I think I might wanna play, if that's okay.

I will fuck you up
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I like the idea of optional hidden voting at least.
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how about we have a liquid snake character that every time he loses he gets stronger

so he goes from a Hin-D to a metal gear to possessing an old man then something else then getting punched in the face by an older man on top of an oil rig
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Lopen posted...

I think Kanzaris could have beaten you either way. Life events putting you on tilt made it easier for him to be sure but the fact that he had a path to victory at all in a 1v8 says something. I think I proved in Mercs 3 that you can be tilted by purely in game stuff as well so I mean, it's certainly possible he could've exposed that weakpoint regardless.

I am arguing a future where I dont lose 200 gp to sanctions and dont make poor decisions the last little bit.

Also I don't think Mercs 3 Chris was similar to Mercs 4 Chris in mindset before real life stuff. I was masterminding it pretty well.

BUT.

Would have loved to have fought Kanz level headed!
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Close match incentive is the best idea in this thread, in my opinion. Close matches are one of the reasons for forfeits, because a lot of the time you want to guarantee value out of a match. Losing a close match just sucks. But if you get something for splitting votes yet losing, then it can be worth it to go to topic that you're not sure you'll win.
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hi Boko!!!!!!!!!!!!
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It's mostly Eddv acting like you smacked me down a lot. I remember me working well with the admins except Kha'zix where I asked luis before I bought him and he nodded.
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DoomTheGyarados posted...

asked luis

DoomTheGyarados posted...

Kha'zix

DoomTheGyarados posted...

he nodded

the yes man at work
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

Not Yet, Snake! It's Not Over Yet!: Some people die hard, and no one dies harder than Liquid. He will start today's battle in Metal Gear Sahelanthropus, but upon being defeated, Sahelanthropus will instead explode harmlessly, being replaced by a spontaneously appearing Metal Gear REX. This process will repeat again for the HIND-D, and then the MGS1 Jeep. Only once Liquid sustains fatal damage while riding the Jeep and is left to fight unarmed on foot will he finally stay down for good.

I feel like this ability is great potential for the AP system. Start with just HIND and Jeep, add REX for AP, then add Sahelanthropus for another. Add in being able to sacrifice a form in order for it to absorb/tank any ability that could target Liquid as a whole so as to make the AP cost worth it even if Liquid gets targeted to Hell and back. Keeps it very flexible whilst keeping true to Liquid and not being massively overpowered since it's a hefty investment of resources at its peak.
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hello scare and gravy
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Yeah

I'm just saying I think Kanzaris exploiting you being overconfident with your stronger team by using weird tricks and causing you to spiral out of control is... pretty much exactly what happened in mercs 3 without any life issues at work.

Like he definitely had a similar team to mine in that regard with the ability to pull out surprising moves and win matches that are losing on paper.

Probably not my level of goading though so it's entirely possible you would've seen his stuff coming without the life handicap. I'm just saying it's disrespectful to Kanzaris's play to say you 100% would have won. I certainly don't feel it was a lock.

But yeah on the player/admin relation end I don't think you were smacked down by the admins much in general. If anything we probably partially enabled the problems to begin with by working with you a bit too much.
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My thinking was the ability unlocks all the forms that would be usable that week (so like, all of them in High, but just the jeep + on foot for Low), but that could be a really neat way to do it too. Gotta make sure the people get their REXes somehow!
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I don't know how Kanz vs Chris goes. Actually I do: I probably manipulate circumstances so Kanz is left out of the playoffs entirely because I am a bad man who can manipulate <_<.

I am just saying I won the first match and I am on record as stating I think I lose the next two in that current match up but give me 200 more gp and my head in the game and I think Kanz runs into issues.

I was mostly just shelling away at that point. And I bought Garrus for reasons unknown.
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No-can-do on that -- the Cabal was making sure Kanz made playoffs, same as Boko. I was less certain but still probable.
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That was lowkey my biggest advantage in M4

Everyone else either wasted away, or merely wanted to win. I needed to win and it showed really clearly in the match with Boko. I don't think I could've found the way through his ridiculous team if it hadn't felt like my life was on the line there and defeat was not an acceptable outcome. The power of mental fortitude in mercs is way too real guys
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Can I just note that kind of talk really annoys me. It makes my bones ache. Talk of cabals and this and that... ah well, at least I can say I didn't really mind anything WITHIN M4. M3 made me super angry for a long time. M4 is more of a sigh and a 'man what if my life hadn't derailed there."
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Also I remember I genuinely somehow rented out Wario favors to both Chris and another (I have forgotten who), which deservedly made Chris flip out even more since in that case, I had to hold up to the first hit I offered before the second

Usually I kept real good track of that shit too, so I felt badly
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DeathChicken posted...

Also I remember I genuinely somehow rented out Wario favors to both Chris and another (I have forgotten who), which deservedly made Chris flip out even more since in that case, I had to hold up to the first hit I offered before the second

Usually I kept real good track of that shit too, so I felt badly

Tells you where I was at that I genuinely had forgotten all about this.

Oh and I am now remembering Eddv's gloating after the fact that he was going to not uphold his word to me.

Hm...

Good to remember.
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I volunteer as tribute
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Oh wait this is just a setup topic.

I want to be a player.
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benjamin3740 posted...

Oh wait this is just a setup topic.

I want to be a player.

Make sure to tag this topic and the offseason one, then! I'll try to keep people posted as admins are chosen.
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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Oh and I am now remembering Eddv's gloating after the fact that he was going to not uphold his word to me.

Of course I wasn't.

Why would I have? You took advantage when I was green and I was naturally going to get my revenge when the time came.
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I really had too much fun carrying out other people's' murders in exchange for favors. And people said Wario was useless

Also I got to make funny images when hits were called

https://imgur.com/K9s0wZz

https://imgur.com/IGLakng

https://imgur.com/37Ib5Ra
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that last one still gets me

Who needs agent 47, wario the true hitman
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DC and I having a blood feud that wasnt even intentional was the best

Armstrong vs diablo best feud
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I am intending to play but I am around for whatever pre-game stuff
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I've returned from the shadows at a good time, apparently! After being mostly an observer and occasional voter in Mercs 4, I'd like to say that I might join the fight this time around. I'll maybe even offer up some merc build ideas, as well.

Yes, let's avoid another situation where one team ends up fighting another team 800 times because no one else wants to declare on them
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I knew lopen would see the glory in AP
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But yeah I like AP since it still allows varying levels of ability power strengths while limiting the day to day use. I think LLF said they had a 2/day limit, which kinda means all abilities have to be the same rough power level or they'll just never get used. I want my 1 AP 'turn target Merc into an evil genderbent robot' abilities man
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Lopen posted...

I like Chris's idea, actually. I don't know about that implementation exactly but the basic idea sounds good.

I also think that if you wanted more fights to go to topic another way to help would be to give incentives for not just winning but also for gaining some amount of support in losses. Like if you get 30% or 40% of the votes you get some sorta bonus as the loser. Things like that. Also stuff with winning streaks and bounties. Like some bonus when you win many times in a row and some bonus for beating guys who win many times in a row. That would hamstring trading wins as you'd never gain the bonus for winning in a row.

You get only 2 points for a forfeit but 3 for a win. Loser gets 1 for a close loss and 0 for a forfeit or rout. Or something.
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the best part of mercs is imagining how fights will go and how abilities will function.

the worst parts of mercs are things that get in the way of that. to me, those are

1) huge character rosters with characters i don't recognize with huge JRPG/anime level feats

2) abilities that determine the outcome of the match on a metagame level rather than an imagination level

like, ones that straight up auto-KO characters rather than allowing voters to decide whether the ability would reasonably be able to do so
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When I played I felt like alliances came into play and no one would listen to reasoning when it came to some cool ideas because their mind is already set when the matches start. I was also not a fan when people would vote before explanation would even come in. Like People would say things Dante Solo's and then that would be that. They aren't even willing to listen and it made it very frustrating to even keep going with the season.
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banananor posted...

the best part of mercs is imagining how fights will go and how abilities will function.

the worst parts of mercs are things that get in the way of that. to me, those are

1) huge character rosters with characters i don't recognize with huge JRPG/anime level feats

2) abilities that determine the outcome of the match on a metagame level rather than an imagination level

like, ones that straight up auto-KO characters rather than allowing voters to decide whether the ability would reasonably be able to do so

1 is to some degree unavoidable. One man's unrecognizable character is another's cause for celebration (case in point: Kain and Raziel, who famously have a group of 3-4 voters who absolutely love them and are otherwise kind of obscure). While I want to borrow a page from LLF Mercs and add brief bullet point descriptions of what a merc can do for the sake of newbies, the only true cure for that is to ask the leader who the fuck their character is to see if you can get a quick primer on them.

2 is there moreso for the sake of the players than the voters. In a world where we were 100% committed to making Mercs a spectator sport abilities would be massively nerfed, but then we'd barely have any players because of how much powerlessness and worry a raw no-abilities match makes you feel, usually (source: been there. A lot). Hardcoded 'this guy is outta here/useless' abilities let the players dictate the match they'll have to face to some degree, which is huge for managing your stress levels.
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brief bullet point descriptions of what a merc can do


Kanz for president
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I do want to be involved in Mercs in some way - maybe as a player (realistically, though, probably not). Definitely not as a full fledged admin - I have finally learned my lesson on that front (and don't want to earn anyone else's eternal hatred). I'll likely make some builds for fun and keep an eye on things to see how they're progressing. I like the discussion of new rules, because it gives a nice springboard for new and fun ability ideas.

I think Newbie and I are the only ones with admin board access for every Mercs version, so feel free to hit me up if you need me to dredge up something up from a while ago, for some reason!
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Also, what is the idea for the season length for Mercs 5?
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eaedwards6400 posted...

Also, what is the idea for the season length for Mercs 5?

Undetermined, but absolutely a full season. This means somewhere between 40 and 60 weeks. Incidentally, while the admin team will make a final call here, this is as good a time to ask as any: How would you prefer to determine a winner, everyone? I can see the following methods, right now:

A) Person with the best record at the end of the season wins, Football Soccer style.

B) Top X players (top 8?) advance to a finals round and play a one or two-match round robin with each other, best winrate out of this set is champion.

C) Top X players advance to a finals round and face each other in a Bo3 playoffs bracket.
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It has to be C I think.

You need to directly eliminate your foes. It's just not as satisfying otherwise.
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agree
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60 weeks an extreme amount of commitment..
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eaedwards6400 posted...

60 weeks an extreme amount of commitment..

To be fair draft was more intense than the majority of the 60 weeks would be so your perception of what that means might be askew from what it actually means.

But yes it is a bit much either way.
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I mean that's a good point because I was on here almost daily for the draft season and got more miserable as the weeks go went on.
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eaedwards6400 posted...

60 weeks an extreme amount of commitment..

It's quite a bit of time, agreed. Longer seasons allow for more time for newbies to really show what they're made of, as an upside (I would argue it takes newbies about 15 to 20 weeks to really grasp the game, based on my own experience, Eddv's, Scare's and others). We're not set on a duration yet for this reason, got a lot of angles to consider.

(Also, with all the changes we're trying to add to the game, we hope Mercs will be a bit less of a time commitment this time. Remains to be seen if we'll achieve our goal, but part and parcel of reducing player burnout is requiring less time be spent on the game just to compete.)
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