Board 8 > Mercenaries 5 Unveiling Topic: Now Hiring! [New Game]

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KanzarisKelshen
09/14/18 6:36:06 PM
#251:


greengravy294 posted...
I'd be a reliable admin, I think

Even lopen probably has to give that one to me


Wish you'd join us tbqh, but I understand the thirst for a win

Can't rag on anyone for wanting to get that championship rollin
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Eddv
09/14/18 6:39:22 PM
#252:


And some one has to oppose the tyranny of gravy.
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Lopen
09/14/18 6:40:13 PM
#253:


I can't decisively say anyone would be reliable. I couldn't even say Dante or Newbie would be had they been expected to do more. In that sense Tiro/numbers may have got a bit of a raw deal as while they flaked hard they started off doing more. It's easy to be reliable when you have to do relatively less. That being said rulings can be fairly exhausting, so I don't mean to downplay that contribution either. To actually put thought into how things interact, it's more effort than you'd think. Hopefully cleaning up the game a bit will help with that.

Really Drak should be #3 now that I think about it. He helped with income pretty often with no real prodding from me. Probably just took pity on my poor soul. Think he technically helped less with rulings as IIRC I wasn't desperate enough to solicit him as an official voter till late but yeah.
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X_Dante_X
09/14/18 7:00:17 PM
#254:


I 100% would have flaked tirofog status if anything was expected of me. thats why i steadfastly refused any title
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Lopen
09/14/18 7:04:16 PM
#255:


Well, I still think knowing that you're going to flake is worth a lot since it allows the people who are going to work to plan to need to do that much more.
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Tom Bombadil
09/14/18 7:07:23 PM
#256:


that is one reason I have never tried to be an admin! I kinda like doing builds and other pre-game stuff but can 100% guarantee that I'd last about two weeks into the actual game, what with all the data maintenance and dramaz
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Lopen
09/14/18 7:17:50 PM
#257:


Your devotion to seeing 1006verse through makes you one of the only people here I'd feel 100% safe with as an admin

But you have 1006verse to work on so beat it back to the data entry mines
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Tom Bombadil
09/14/18 7:27:24 PM
#258:


That is a point I hadn't considered!

I think the reason that works is that I didn't expect it to be a multi-year project and then it just kept growing and growing <_>

so basically you need to trick me into overcommiting and then getting attached
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Lopen
09/14/18 7:28:03 PM
#259:


Story of my m4 admin career my dude
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Tirofog
09/14/18 7:53:42 PM
#260:


I'd say I was a solid contributor until Week 20-23 or so. After that, I definitely shirked some responsibilities, yeah. Part of that was real life stuff getting in the way - I started dating my girlfriend in February 2016 and going back to school in January 2017 on top of working full time during the overnight shift. That said, I know that everyone else has real life stuff going on and I still could have contributed more than I did, so Lopen's assessment is pretty accurate. I did do a lot of stuff pre-game and during the first few weeks, though. I also chimed in where I could with rulings towards the end of the game, but most of the time a consensus had been reached before I could get to it (usually rulings popped up overnight and I couldn't do anything until the next morning).

Now that I'm done with school and have a job with normal hours, I feel like I could do a better job contributing. I'm definitely not going to put myself in a position anymore where people are relying on me to get stuff done, though - I have learned my lesson in that regard.
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IfGodCouldDie
09/14/18 7:57:07 PM
#261:


Its sounds like being an admin is going to be a good way to force a break from mafia lol
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Lopen
09/14/18 8:01:13 PM
#262:


I honestly think you should not even try to be an admin. Play the game first in earnest so you can understand what the goals of the game are first.
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eaedwards6400
09/14/18 8:05:02 PM
#263:


Having worked UCA with Tom his is one of the most ethical people around.
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Johnbobb
09/14/18 8:05:11 PM
#264:


yeah definitely play first

even that's overcomplicated your first time through
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IfGodCouldDie
09/14/18 8:31:33 PM
#265:


Lopen posted...
I honestly think you should not even try to be an admin. Play the game first in earnest so you can understand what the goals of the game are first.

I have a minimal understanding of what the game entails, the biggest reason I offered to admin instead of playing is because Kanz said he needs admins before the game can even be played. I'd much rather be an admin to a game that's running than be a player in a game that's not. If Kanz gets enough experienced people to admin where he wont need my help, I'll definitely play.
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DeathChicken
09/14/18 9:12:01 PM
#266:


For what it's worth, numbers was the only admin to my memory that I never had any gripe with on any issue, whether it was a ruling in my favor or against me. He was always civil about it, which is about all I ask
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ScareChan
09/14/18 9:42:28 PM
#267:


Igcd will be a solid leader I feel but I think is family time commitments are an obstacle. So admin is not a great idea

Lopen was. basically accessible 24 7
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DeathChicken
09/14/18 9:45:19 PM
#268:


I take it back, I don't think I had a problem with HGR either. Aside from it becoming a running joke that any rulings HGR voted on would be decided by throwing chicken bones into a vat of blood and reading which ones floated
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Eddv
09/14/18 10:10:43 PM
#269:


DC and I mostly avoided one another.
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ScareChan
09/15/18 12:39:53 AM
#270:


I literally bought Raiden just with the intentions of having Diablo fight Armstrong in mortal Kombat
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Eddv
09/15/18 12:52:43 AM
#271:


Hey is Sword Man going to be a Merc again? I think he's earned a spot in Merge lore.
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KanzarisKelshen
09/15/18 2:04:47 AM
#272:


Eddv posted...
Hey is Sword Man going to be a Merc again? I think he's earned a spot in Merge lore.


As his own merc probably not

But he might return as a part of Wily, since I liked Wily's gimmick and Sword Man was definitely an M4 legend
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ZeeksFire
09/15/18 3:30:30 PM
#273:


I'd be willing to examine mercs made and consider things, but I know i couldn't do it full time. Work and all.
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KamikazePotato
09/15/18 4:10:13 PM
#274:


KanzarisKelshen posted...
Undetermined, but absolutely a full season. This means somewhere between 40 and 60 weeks.

40 weeks should be the absolute max. I would advocate for 30. The major reason Mercs falls apart so much in the later stages of the game is because it takes so long to finish this game, and turns the entire thing into an emotionally grueling endurance run that's puts off players AND voters. 30 Mercs Weeks is still an extremely long amount of real world time to spend on an online message board game.
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KanzarisKelshen
09/15/18 4:51:13 PM
#275:


KamikazePotato posted...
KanzarisKelshen posted...
Undetermined, but absolutely a full season. This means somewhere between 40 and 60 weeks.

40 weeks should be the absolute max. I would advocate for 30. The major reason Mercs falls apart so much in the later stages of the game is because it takes so long to finish this game, and turns the entire thing into an emotionally grueling endurance run that's puts off players AND voters. 30 Mercs Weeks is still an extremely long amount of real world time to spend on an online message board game.


And it's not enough time to actually learn the game. This isn't me being glib, we had like five or six test cases of new people sucking ass for between 15 to 20 weeks in M4. I get the idea of wanting a shorter mercs but it's an impossible ideal for an actual 'classic' season. It favors veterans so disproportionately you might as well eliminate everyone else automatically. Draftmerx is there for shortish 3 month Mercs games.
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MasaomiHouzuki
09/15/18 4:57:54 PM
#276:


I don't think people value learning the game as much as the game being fun kan.
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KanzarisKelshen
09/15/18 5:06:49 PM
#277:


MasaomiHouzuki posted...
I don't think people value learning the game as much as the game being fun kan.


Ideally, the multitude of changes we're going to implement will address that. I'm looking at the events of M4 and a lot of the fun stuff happened very late in the game though - the fanservice contest that resulted in Banana Hammock Terry Bogard, Sword Man's trolling, the match where an entire world exploded, Victor 'Goddamn' Sullivan soloing Gravy's team, DC's miracle upset where Juliet carried the day, Charles Barkley's BBalling Mercs debut, and on a personal note, Sorey raising my doomed team from the dead and my defining match vs Boko. Mercs is a grueling game, I get that - but making it so people don't have time to learn it and come to really love all that it can do doesn't strike me as the right solution. I'd rather just make it takes less of a toll on people's sanity instead and address the problem directly.
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KamikazePotato
09/15/18 5:28:53 PM
#278:


MasaomiHouzuki posted...
I don't think people value learning the game as much as the game being fun kan.

This. Ideally, if the game is fun and short, then that means you can make more iterations of the game because

1. It didn't take so long that people want nothing to do with it for 2-3 years afterwards
2. It was actually fun so people want to come back and play again anyway

And none of the fun happenings you mentioned can only occur in a shorter game.
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Johnbobb
09/15/18 5:33:19 PM
#279:


KanzarisKelshen posted...
we had like five or six test cases of new people sucking ass for between 15 to 20 weeks in M4

>.>
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Sceptilesolar
09/15/18 5:38:38 PM
#280:


Make a game that's easier to learn. Otherwise new players will get discouraged by failure long before the point they could become proficient. Stretching the game length doesn't really help.
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KanzarisKelshen
09/15/18 6:38:03 PM
#281:


Sceptilesolar posted...
Make a game that's easier to learn. Otherwise new players will get discouraged by failure long before the point they could become proficient. Stretching the game length doesn't really help.


Taking suggestions there. Mercs has a strategic ability layer, a strategic economic layer, a strategic social layer, a tactical social layer, a tactical ability layer and I might be missing other components. A lot of the complexity looks irreducible to me, since it comes from the game having so many sides to it.
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ScareChan
09/15/18 7:15:58 PM
#282:


simplifiying abilities and how they work is half the battle with making it easier to learn. But half the fun of Mercs is the politics and thats not something you can make easier
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KanzarisKelshen
09/15/18 7:58:19 PM
#283:


ScareChan posted...
simplifiying abilities and how they work is half the battle with making it easier to learn. But half the fun of Mercs is the politics and thats not something you can make easier


Right, and we're taking steps towards the former with very clear templating and an instruction manual. The latter is something we can't really fix, nor can we fix not understanding voter respects (which is like a huge reason I want a long season - 'oops I bought little mac and bowser thinking it was a killer combo and it's not' is not a thing players can address in the span of a few weeks).
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ScareChan
09/15/18 9:08:10 PM
#284:


While I agree I am a good example of that, I was also an example of getting the most out of your merc even if they weren't the best. Mac's exp bonus carries me a good while and the only time he was ko on my team was via deathwing

And giga browser has a lot of respect it was just a bit too late to carry what I needed
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ScareChan
09/15/18 9:09:04 PM
#285:


And you can fix voter expectations to a degree by giving a primer on their mercs careers
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greengravy294
09/15/18 9:11:37 PM
#286:


victor "goddamn" sullivan got surprised by a random goon that gets turned on by his head goon and shot point blank

i mean i dont really have big respect for victor "goddamn" sullivan with his uc1 showings
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KamikazePotato
09/15/18 9:23:21 PM
#287:


No amount of easing the players into a game is going to reduce the sheer time/emotional investment 'classic' mercs was. Even if players are having fun, it's unreasonable to expect them to want to play a game for THAT long.

I'm taking a pretty hardline stance on this one. If you want Mercs to be an easier game on the player and the voters than you have to reduce the amount of time to finish a round of Mercs. There is no round of Mercs that was improved by going on stupidly long.
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Eddv
09/15/18 9:39:25 PM
#288:


greengravy294 posted...
victor "goddamn" sullivan got surprised by a random goon that gets turned on by his head goon and shot point blank

i mean i dont really have big respect for victor "goddamn" sullivan with his uc1 showings


You re still sour over that :)
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KanzarisKelshen
09/15/18 9:49:36 PM
#289:


greengravy294 posted...
victor "goddamn" sullivan got surprised by a random goon that gets turned on by his head goon and shot point blank

i mean i dont really have big respect for victor "goddamn" sullivan with his uc1 showings


This is what makes it a top tier moment, you got robbed by a guy who loses to mooks and the best part is everyone voted honestly there

KamikazePotato posted...
No amount of easing the players into a game is going to reduce the sheer time/emotional investment 'classic' mercs was. Even if players are having fun, it's unreasonable to expect them to want to play a game for THAT long.

I'm taking a pretty hardline stance on this one. If you want Mercs to be an easier game on the player and the voters than you have to reduce the amount of time to finish a round of Mercs. There is no round of Mercs that was improved by going on stupidly long.


I respectfully beg to differ. Mercenaries is the greatest game I've ever played in large part because of the commitment it requires. It's people actually taking the time to care that makes this game so memorable - if everyone took it casually it wouldn't actually be a game worth remembering. In that respect, I think it's a good idea to think of it as being most similar not to board games or even videogames, but to PnP tabletop RPG campaigns. Those games can last for years on end (indeed, I've played and still play in two games that are six and five years old at this point, and a few others have finished after a couple years of playtime), and it's all predicated on the players giving a damn. It's not a coincidence that those games have a massive social element too - and neither is it a coincidence that the divide between long term RPGs and short term ones is marked and intentional.

Moreover...Mercs is not a casual game, and no amount of cutting its duration will make it something it's not. Were you around for draftmercs? Because that game ran for 7 weeks of round robin and 8 of playoffs, and it still ended with a double ragequit in one pool and a forfeit-quit on the other. Even dramatically shortening the duration of the game didn't keep it from being very emotionally draining and mentally exhausting. If you've got another theory on why draftmerx had drama explosions in spite of being so short, aside from 'irreducible minimum investment and heartache', I'm all ears, because that's what it felt like to me.
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greengravy294
09/15/18 9:49:44 PM
#290:


im playing the uncharted series (up to uncharted 3 at least thats all i own) just to find some sick victor "goddamn" sullivan feats to see if he does anything more impressive than get accosted by a bunch of mooks and some dude that gets betrayed by henchman mcgeneric
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ScareChan
09/15/18 10:18:22 PM
#291:


There is a toll of seeing your warriors suffer that a general just cannot stomach. Be it a day or a year, the generals heart beats for his team
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ScareChan
09/15/18 10:19:48 PM
#292:


ScareChan posted...
And you can fix voter expectations to a degree by giving a primer on their mercs careers


I dont want this overlooked. A brief history of battlwworth would help a lot.
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KanzarisKelshen
09/15/18 10:24:25 PM
#293:


ScareChan posted...
ScareChan posted...
And you can fix voter expectations to a degree by giving a primer on their mercs careers


I dont want this overlooked. A brief history of battlwworth would help a lot.


How would you phrase it? Because I did plan on including some notes on past performances into bios, but it was something like this (using Sonic as an example here):

-Combat respect has historically varied widely. Those who believe in Sonic consider him to be perfectly comparable with 5/week mercenaries. Those who don't treat him as barely capable of defeating 2/week battle mercs. It all depends on who shows up to vote that day.
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DoomTheGyarados
09/15/18 10:26:19 PM
#294:


I would consider lowering roster sizes too. Do we really need more than 4 people in a battle? Really?
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ScareChan
09/15/18 10:26:20 PM
#295:


Something along the lines of key wins and losses, but I would restrict it to their own tier or a signature solo in a lower level
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DoomTheGyarados
09/15/18 10:29:23 PM
#296:


Also encouraging 1 v 1s or 2 v 2s of interesting style clashes would be nice too. Like less roster spots means more easily dictated match for voters, but there can still be good choices.

Basically there should be clear incentives to simplify the game a bit from a technical stand point Politics and social aspects will always be there - so you can simplify roster decisions.
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ScareChan
09/15/18 10:32:30 PM
#297:


My idea on that was instead of having slots have field cap

So let's say low tier is 10 cap and each merc value is their upkeep. You could field 3 3s and a 1 or 10 1s. . A pay down would be like upkeep and a half so a 4 would take up 6 points and a 5 could not be fielded

I would say mid would be 15 or 16 and high would be 20
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ScareChan
09/15/18 10:33:39 PM
#298:


I didnt communicate the mid 5 very well with my math but you get the idea
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DeathChicken
09/15/18 10:44:43 PM
#299:


Wow did people sleep on Juliet. I was like...really? The same Juliet who jumps 25 miles to saw someone in half? Not buying her? K, guess I will
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Mewtwo59
09/16/18 12:25:34 AM
#300:


Unless you can argue really well there's no reason to get someone from a game nobody played for combat. Trust me, I know.
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