Board 8 > Mercenaries 5 Unveiling Topic: Now Hiring! [New Game]

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Eddv
09/16/18 12:33:58 AM
#301:


Reminder that Isaac went unbought for over 10 weeks when i landed him.
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KanzarisKelshen
09/16/18 2:03:29 AM
#302:


DeathChicken posted...
Wow did people sleep on Juliet. I was like...really? The same Juliet who jumps 25 miles to saw someone in half? Not buying her? K, guess I will


There's a reason I marked that fight where she won vs Sindragosa as a high point of mercs. It was an extremely rare instance of a hypothetically outmatched force winning through the power of good arguments and lore backing, IMO.
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Drakeryn
09/16/18 2:09:34 AM
#303:


DoomTheGyarados posted...
I would consider lowering roster sizes too. Do we really need more than 4 people in a battle? Really?

Yes imo

(1) It makes certain merc types more viable. Like a dedicated healer/buffer is good in a large fight, but impractical in a 2v2.
(2) More importantly, it allows more ability interplay. (I love abilities.) With a bigger roster size, you may be able to bring 1-2 weak mercs with good SoBs and have it be a good play. Or at least it's an option, which makes ability phases more interesting in terms of "who do I need to shut down on the enemy team" and also delicious roster wifom.

Also I like big battles aesthetically but maybe that's just me.
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DoomTheGyarados
09/16/18 2:11:38 AM
#304:


Yes and you like big battles because you are incredibly smart and have taken the time to understand mercs. You aren't the person Mercs wants to appeal to.

Also if we make THAT change, you change the way mercs work.

Also thinking buffers/healers aren't viable 2 v 2 has never played Arena in WoW.
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Drakeryn
09/16/18 2:13:43 AM
#305:


it's true, I haven't

but I assume WoW characters are at least moderately balanced wrt each other

whereas your 3/week is going to get zero respect in a high tier 2v2, people are just going to treat it as healer dies instantly -> 2v1
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KamikazePotato
09/16/18 2:18:45 AM
#306:


3 v 3 is the ideal match size. Anything more than 7 total characters gets iffy.

Eddv posted...
Reminder that Isaac went unbought for over 10 weeks when i landed him.

Picking up mercs that people slept on and using them effectively is an amazing feeling. Random Alchemist from Etrian Odyssey carried my earlygame Mercs 3 team.
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ZeeksFire
09/16/18 6:24:43 AM
#307:


Isaac was possibly one of the bigger sleepers in the game, He did good work in Tom's side game. Neptune was also a big sleeper if you could put together a long range team, because of just how convulted the map was.

That makes me think of something, make sure you consider location when choosing a stage. Two autofailures because the stage winner picked the worst possible location is too many.
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DeathChicken
09/16/18 10:36:53 AM
#308:


Game over return of Xen
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DoomTheGyarados
09/16/18 10:50:19 AM
#309:


Isaac wasn't a sleeper for me tbh. Just went in different directions.
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Sceptilesolar
09/16/18 10:56:42 AM
#310:


I favor smaller matches, 3v3 sounds like a good number but it's hard to tell. Realize that not only are larger battles harder to follow for the players, they're much harder to follow for the voters that aren't players. That's a relatively important group that needs to be considered. Especially when there are also various modifiers being thrown around, it often feels like too much work to understand the fight topic, and so they don't vote.
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DeathChicken
09/16/18 11:01:25 AM
#311:


This is also a problem dating back to Mercs 1. There were no roster limits there, so matches inevitably ended up being "This team has 12 guys, one of them is Sephiroth. I am going to mentally disregard all the guys here, like, Ryo Hazuki or some shit and bold vote Sephiroth, thanks"
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Tom Bombadil
09/16/18 12:09:12 PM
#312:


I think my ideal "norm" is 4v4. Even 5v5 gets a bit hard to brain at times, but 2v2 and 3v3 gets a bit too simple for my taste, and easier for the biggest dude on the field to just get dante solos votes.
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Lopen
09/16/18 12:30:48 PM
#313:


I think I got good mileage out of arguing Yu Narukami (and Rikku to a lesser extent) as a devoted healing/buff bot in mercs draft edition even in small matches. I think it's doable people just try to force the argument on poor terrains for it out of desperation
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DeathChicken
09/16/18 12:52:07 PM
#314:


It personally for me depends on whether I think it fits the character's personality. Luca Blight ain't gonna be playing back line healer even if he somehow now has Curaga. Yu, sure. He is a bro by nature
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KanzarisKelshen
09/16/18 1:27:02 PM
#315:


Tom Bombadil posted...
I think my ideal "norm" is 4v4. Even 5v5 gets a bit hard to brain at times, but 2v2 and 3v3 gets a bit too simple for my taste, and easier for the biggest dude on the field to just get dante solos votes.


4v4 is possible, 3v3 is not in the cards

We'd have to nerf abilities into the ground to make it workable and it's not a thing I really want, for a multitude of reasons
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ScareChan
09/16/18 6:57:08 PM
#316:


What about my field cap idea?
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KanzarisKelshen
09/16/18 7:12:28 PM
#317:


ScareChan posted...
What about my field cap idea?


'Maybe'. It's kind of more complex than just setting the slots at 4 or 5, though it does allow for some flexibility. It's something to discuss with the admin team as it's assembled.
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Pizzaknight
09/17/18 5:22:45 AM
#318:


I don't know if this is already on the minds of the admins/potential admins, but please make sure that all terrains have well-defined starting points for both teams! I noticed that a significant number of headaches in M4 came from starting point ambiguity. There also needs to be additional clarity for Mercs who get into vehicles, like Liquid, Fox, Elma, etc.
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trdl23
09/17/18 8:54:25 AM
#319:


Yeah, thats going to be 100% clear from now on. IIRC Kanz already did a lot of that work in draftmerx.
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KanzarisKelshen
09/17/18 12:13:51 PM
#320:


trdl23 posted...
Yeah, thats going to be 100% clear from now on. IIRC Kanz already did a lot of that work in draftmerx.


This is correct yeah

I went through and added a starting point to every single terrain for both teams and even redefined some vague terrains (like Bubbly Clouds) to be more clear. Vehicle mercs were also gonna be standardized, probably.
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Gatarix
09/17/18 4:27:01 PM
#321:


KamikazePotato posted...
Eddv posted...
Reminder that Isaac went unbought for over 10 weeks when i landed him.

Picking up mercs that people slept on and using them effectively is an amazing feeling. Random Alchemist from Etrian Odyssey carried my earlygame Mercs 3 team.

I think this is another reason not to narrow rosters. With bigger rosters you have more room (literally) to maybe gamble on an unknown quantity, or a merc who gets mixed respect, without having to stake the whole match on them.

Also, in terms of visualizing matches, I think the mercs themselves are a bigger factor than raw team size. Like if you have a 2v2 featuring...I dunno, SH2 Yuri and the Destiny dude, it is probably going to end up with the two leaders tossing walls of text at each other until the thread peters out with three total votes. Some characters just make me mentally glaze over. But give me a bigger fight with characters that I know better and an all-around more robust discussion, and it's much more comprehensible.

It's not just about merc obscurity, although that's a factor. Like, I'd never heard of Nova before M4, but she was both fun and had easy talking points: sniper, invisibility cloak, psychic powerz, skilled at infiltration. As opposed to say Kha'zix (I still have no idea what this guy does, besides be broken) or Marcus (I know what he does but it's boring) or Yuri ("I have exactly two youtube clips of this guy and I'm going to post them in every fight").
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KanzarisKelshen
09/17/18 4:37:29 PM
#322:


I think that's a huge thing to address, yeah

'Give every merc something you can hype' is like, a huge thing on my to-do list for every single unit. Like you know how Agnes was a bog standard generic fantasy heroine but had Brave stuff to make her unique? That. For example, Marcus Fenix is boring...but he's much less boring if he comes with the Hammer of Dawn by default (but it doesn't work on terrains it wouldn't work on in Gears of War without his ability - so it's a thing you hype if the fight is outdoors, but not in an underground terrain) so he has a neat thing to argue about him besides 'he's a McGunner with beefy armor'. Likewise, giving Terra intrinsic Morph to use in every fight like the admin team did helps people have something cool to point at beyond 'uhh she casts good and is the face of FF6 I guess?????'. Some characters are already there - I don't really need to give Ocelot more shit beyond making him his MGS5 version and maybe giving him the bullet-deflecting device he stole from Fortune as a char upgrade - but some need work. Like Edgar, for example.
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KanzarisKelshen
09/17/18 4:52:12 PM
#323:


Just in case anyone missed it, I put up a little match for fun. Features some highly recognizable characters, too, so it's topical to the discussion at hand!

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/77013067

(by all means continue discussing potential suggestions for M5 here though, just figured I'd give a heads-up.)
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DoomTheGyarados
09/17/18 6:18:27 PM
#324:


There are ways to combat roster size (team) and battle size (specific instance)

Not having Mercs rosterable every time, for instance. I feel like if you want to make mercs inclusive, you have to kind of think outside the box a bit.

Like why do you need to be able to roster a 3 upkeep merc every week? Why not...every other time. It actually makes the game more strategic over a long term, but makes each week simpler for both voters and leaders.
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KanzarisKelshen
09/17/18 6:23:16 PM
#325:


DoomTheGyarados posted...
There are ways to combat roster size (team) and battle size (specific instance)

Not having Mercs rosterable every time, for instance. I feel like if you want to make mercs inclusive, you have to kind of think outside the box a bit.

Like why do you need to be able to roster a 3 upkeep merc every week? Why not...every other time. It actually makes the game more strategic over a long term, but makes each week simpler for both voters and leaders.


"oops it's Week 5 and I just won but I also TKO'd myself accidentally for tomorrow"
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ScareChan
09/17/18 6:47:35 PM
#326:


What about terrains having max occupants?
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ScareChan
09/17/18 6:49:04 PM
#327:


instead of field cap have size cap where each character has a "weight" tabledby them (just like small, medium, large, huge) and each terrain would have potential caps or unlimited.

I think thats more work that field cap but it addresses the terrains directly
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DoomTheGyarados
09/17/18 6:49:59 PM
#328:


KanzarisKelshen posted...
DoomTheGyarados posted...
There are ways to combat roster size (team) and battle size (specific instance)

Not having Mercs rosterable every time, for instance. I feel like if you want to make mercs inclusive, you have to kind of think outside the box a bit.

Like why do you need to be able to roster a 3 upkeep merc every week? Why not...every other time. It actually makes the game more strategic over a long term, but makes each week simpler for both voters and leaders.


"oops it's Week 5 and I just won but I also TKO'd myself accidentally for tomorrow"


How do you TKO yourself by mistake? I suggest lowering cost of mercs to compensate for this system to people can have decent rosters earlier but less people for spam.
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X_Dante_X
09/17/18 6:52:57 PM
#329:


are we kind of circling back to providing a reason not to fight if we essentially add cooldowns to the mercs themselves
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ScareChan
09/17/18 6:59:29 PM
#330:


I think its better to just streamline the Mercs 4 system instead of trying to redo everything

4 system was easy enough to follow, just take out the OP and headache mercs that came late game, Fix wording on abilities.
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ScareChan
09/17/18 7:00:41 PM
#331:


please just host another draft mercs to bring in new players and potential admins >_>

actually if you do a draft mercs now that would end during contest time and youcould get new eyes on the finals time
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KanzarisKelshen
09/17/18 7:11:31 PM
#332:


DoomTheGyarados posted...

How do you TKO yourself by mistake? I suggest lowering cost of mercs to compensate for this system to people can have decent rosters earlier but less people for spam.


Being a newbie and not understanding an important rule because you're busy grappling with upkeeps and terrains and abilities and voter respect
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Lopen
09/17/18 8:44:46 PM
#333:


X_Dante_X posted...
are we kind of circling back to providing a reason not to fight if we essentially add cooldowns to the mercs themselves


That's the crux of the problem rather than accidentally KOing yourself.

Every team constantly having rosters in flux is going to create more lopsided matches due to the declaration order system
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KanzarisKelshen
09/17/18 8:46:51 PM
#334:


Lopen posted...
X_Dante_X posted...
are we kind of circling back to providing a reason not to fight if we essentially add cooldowns to the mercs themselves


That's the crux of the problem rather than accidentally KOing yourself.

Every team constantly having rosters in flux is going to create more lopsided matches due to the declaration order system


That's what I was driving at with an extreme example yes

I pointed out the Week 5 instance because your first few wins matter way more than absolutely anything else in this whole game. So losing during the most important days because you failed the buy-enough-mercs game is...trash, frankly.
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DeathChicken
09/18/18 1:38:40 AM
#335:


I dunno, I tanked most of my early matches for Reasons and did fine. Well, would have done better if Scare didn't provide an amazingly accidental counter of making a strong team that also did really badly
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KanzarisKelshen
09/19/18 4:23:29 AM
#336:


Mostly done with recruiting. I should be able to unveil the (initial) admin team soon! Stay tuned for details everyone.
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Dantezoid
09/19/18 2:52:58 PM
#337:


Hype hype hype
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Dantezoid
09/20/18 1:44:09 PM
#338:


where is hype
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KanzarisKelshen
09/20/18 2:11:08 PM
#339:


Dantezoid posted...
where is hype


https://imgur.com/tHPmi

(If they are not resolved by tonight I will do a staggered announcement. So hype will be delivered no matter what tonight)
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IfGodCouldDie
09/20/18 9:38:55 PM
#340:


Are we doing this in Kanz time?
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Eddv
09/20/18 9:56:07 PM
#341:


As opposed to Ganon time? Yes.
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ScareChan
09/20/18 9:57:22 PM
#342:


in true Mercs fashion

Kanz imploded and wont be heard from for 2 months
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trdl23
09/20/18 11:27:17 PM
#343:


TOO BAD, WALUIGI TIME caps
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KanzarisKelshen
09/20/18 11:28:08 PM
#344:


Y'all gotta calm down, I said 'tonight' and the night ain't over yet

Anyway, now that I am home, IT IS TIME. After much deliberation, I have selected the first two admins to join the M5 admin team. I am still going over the prospective applicants, but it is my pleasure to announce this is no longer a one man operation. Our first two new admins are...

Drumroll

Trdl23 and Kamekguy! I'm sure you guys saw the former coming from a mile away, but might be surprised by the latter. Allow me, if I will, to explain why these two fine gentlemen were my first choices amidst a very competitive group.

In the case of Trdl, I've had the chance to admin a game with him before. While he kept a low profile, and he'll say he was inactive, he was very prompt in responding to me during Draftmerx, and always asked the right questions to help us quickly clarify our stance on how an ability worked or should work for any given ruling. I'm not ashamed to say we got spammed to hell with queries for such a brief game - and it was in large part thanks to him that they were handled so gracefully. He is also directly responsible for the ability primer you've seen in the front page, as he was the one who encouraged me to regiment and clarify the rules and hashed out several pieces of it with me. I have utmost confidence in his ability to help us sort out ability interactions and deliver speedy rulings for M5, something I'm sure everyone who got stuck with a rules-induced headache in M4 will appreciate.

Kamek, for his part, has a distinguished pedigree as a longstanding admin of multiple mercs projects in our sister game, LLFMercs. As a casual voter there, he always patiently answered my questions as I adapted to that game's own culture, was receptive when I pointed out if something was unclear, and was unflichingly friendly and polite even when the players got rowdy. He brings veterancy to a team that is otherwise green, and is full of excellent ideas for new builds to make and old builds to update. His expertise will come in very handy in the months to come.

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But that's not all. In addition to the admin announcements above, there's a few teasers of the work we've hashed out over the last few days as well (I waited a bit to make this announcement as I wanted to have a couple solid ideas to show off the game's new direction). So allow to me to provide a few teasers...

-We're going to be using the AP system and dispensing with universal recharges. Most abilities will not possess one at all, instead gating you by the amount of AP you can spend in a given match and their specific cost.
-We are aiming to set abilities at a baseline 1 AP cost for most effects. For example, Pudge's Meat Hook would be a 1 AP ability. Powerful abilities (like a KO usable every day) will require 2 AP or more (and/or a Fatigue cost), cutting down on the amount of spam in exchange for raw power. Note that for Fatigue, it will not be universal and will instead be used as a balancing factor for specific abilities, and also as a potential "status" pre-topic.
-We are instituting a Fatigue system, where mercs cannot use further abilities once Fatigued even if you have AP remaining. Fatigue is applied on a per-mercenary basis, and does not transfer between fighters and their attached Support Mercs unless stated otherwise. This means you could use CATS' IN AD 2101 WAR WAS BEGINNING every week without worrying that popping a fatigue ability on his merc will render him a waste of GP.

(But wait, there's more! Ran out of space in this post, continued in the next.)
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KanzarisKelshen
09/20/18 11:29:16 PM
#345:


-We will institute a gradually rising AP cap to make the game more newbie friendly. The tentative plan is to start with 3 AP, then increase the cap to a maximum of 5 (or at most, 6) AP across the course of the game. We will most likely time AP cap increases to occur alongside the end of elimination weeks - this way, players will have time to adapt to the game while abilities are relatively mild still, and grow into bigger firework displays with time. Hopefully the reduced number of moving pieces will make for an easier to follow, easier to play game that will gain more tactical depth as time passes and the players are better prepared for it.
-We are aiming to price mercenary minimum bids not by pure battle worth, but by their combined ability and combat usefulness. If a mercenary can win you a lot of matches without special combos, you will know it from their price tag.
-We will be introducing 'extra' mercenaries to fill holes in your team compositions. These mercenaries will be units that would not normally receive a full build including abilities and multiple upgrades, and instead provide pure battle worth to their team. They will consequently be very cheap, allowing you to build the battle strategy you really want to use without being constrained by having to buy bad abilities to do so. Two examples of these would be Metal Gear Ray (as seen in Metal Gear Rising) for High Tier, and Etrian Odyssey adventurers, for Low Tier utility and niche filling.
-We are aiming to expand Mercs' reach. For this reason, we plan to post recruitment/interest topics in the Nonstop Gaming, Current Events, and RPGs interest boards, to see if we can grow our crowd. In turn, we're also working hard on setting up a Mercenaries' specific discord, to what I'm sure will be the delight of all of the Board 8 Discord admins.

That's all for now. Comments and suggestions are welcome. We hope to have more news to share with you guys soon! For now, this will have to do. Stick around, cause we're only getting started!
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Lopen
09/21/18 12:27:08 AM
#346:


Kamek seemed a natural pick to me. He made the basis for a lot of builds I liked in M4. I'm fairly sure he gave me the basis for the Dr Wily build, which is a top 5 favorite build I think. Will probably be a great build workhorse, although M4 builds are a lot closer to usable than M3 so hopefully build pressure will be lowered a bit. Also lemmyland experience or whatever.
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Eddv
09/21/18 1:11:39 AM
#347:


Yeah kamek is an excellent choice all around.

trdl feels like Numbers 2.0 but PROVE ME WRONG
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ScareChan
09/21/18 1:22:25 AM
#348:


eternal battle kanz and trdl playing bad cop and not so bad cop and kamek just trying to go to sleep

I love it
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ScareChan
09/21/18 1:23:43 AM
#349:


kidding aside trdl was obvious and I do not recall much drama stemming from decisions in Draft Mercs so I thats cool, and Kamek was a very good help to those who asked and he was always ready to contribute (also Wily best merc) so he should be great

(please another draft mercs before mercs 5 unless its up like in a month)
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DeathChicken
09/21/18 1:29:55 AM
#350:


There was that match where one admin told me one thing and the other admin told me another thing and the result was a match being put up where I had one character and they couldn't move

Amazing thing was I almost won it off of "I reject this shit" votes
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