Board 8 > nonary nonsense: giggs plays zero time dilemma

(+) Yeah! (+)

FFnut posted...

But you shouldn't even know that there's a fourth answer at all. It's hardly "perceptive" that you brute forced a situation with every single name you came across just because you saw a fourth branch.

wat.... it's SUCH a tiny leap from "put in the right name" to "oh hey maybe I should try Delta"

Not to mention if you try to put in Q it says "use his REAL NAME *HINT*HINT*HINT* ;P :D >__> <___>"

I mean I'm not calling you an idiot for not thinking to do it, but it's a very obvious choice
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FFnut posted...

But she played through 999 once, got the Sub Ending, and refuses to spend time replaying the same game over and over with no promise that anything will get better. So I have nobody to discuss the game with, or make jokes about it, etc. in real life.

Wife is simply unfair...
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DeathChicken posted...

Well, the remake collection at least lets you skip through dialogue you've already seen, so you could play that

So did the original. Well speed up anyway.

DeathChicken posted...

Also the game is made immeasurably better with the addition of the timeline map, so you can jump between scenes instead of having to retread everything.

This completely ruins it though. The whole point of the game is retreading the same scene over and over (ESPECIALLY the first puzzle) so you memorize answers and can skip it all. You are literally transferring information to yourself morphogenetically. It's by far the coolest thing this series has ever done.
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foolm0r0n posted...

wat.... it's SUCH a tiny leap from "put in the right name" to "oh hey maybe I should try Delta"

Not to mention if you try to put in Q it says "use his REAL NAME *HINT*HINT*HINT* ;P :D >__> <___>"

I mean I'm not calling you an idiot for not thinking to do it, but it's a very obvious choice

But that's what I mean. You have no reason to think that Q's real name is Delta. None whatsoever. I was honestly on the idea that the kid would have a different name depending on the timeline branch (similar to K in VLR), so I figured playing further in the other side of that timeline would reveal it - since both Q-END 2 and Triangle are in the D-Team Execution branch.

And I also remembered people ruining VLR for themselves by refusing to just accept that they didn't have the answer yet, so I figured the game would give me the answer when it was time without needing to sequence break. And it did!

And by "you shouldn't know there's a fourth answer", I'm specifically referring to the fact that there's a fourth spot on the Flowchart.

Let's say they programmed that fourth space to only appear when you accessed it - sort of like how some fragment sections only appear on the Flowchart when you get to them, or how it reorganizes itself after you learn about the same ward thing.

Suddenly there is absolutely no reason to ever try brute forcing a fourth answer. The fragment appears complete. Even if they leave it without the "fragment complete" checkmark, you aren't going to worry about it any more than you'd worry about Coincide missing that same checkmark. And when you go back, and realize the truth, you could be perceptive enough to realize that there's a fourth answer and input it to get the PERCEPTIVE END.

It's not even like this game doesn't recognize specific incorrect answers - look at how many different responses Eric has to answers in Pop Off. People would definitely play around and find that ending anyway.

Anyway, enough of this for now - I'm sure TC doesn't really appreciate how we've turned his entire topic into what looks like a confidential government document, and it's not like it will be much longer before we can talk about this without the tags.
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FFnut posted...

Suddenly there is absolutely no reason to ever try brute forcing a fourth answer

No shit. And they have hidden branches in many places. So why is it so hard to believe they intentionally put a visible fourth branch there, and it's the ONE place in the entire game they ask "WHAT IS Q'S REAL NAME" (and Sean doesn't even work), to tease you for when you discover "Delta"? AND the result of putting in Delta specifically does nothing but hype up the final reveals, because they wanted you to do it "early". It's such a blatant design that it's kinda insulting they call it "perceptive".
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haha hello guys

i will go back and read this all soon, but before i begin the process of really blowing the doors off this shit, here's some assorted thoughts that have been rattling around my head:

- so we appear to know that Delta is Zero, and that he's part of Q team somehow. what does this actually mean?

- have we been seeing the Q team segments through the eyes of an unseen fourth character who literally never speaks? if so, that's a contrivance even beyond Sigma never looking at a single reflective surface, but it's so absurd I actually kind of like it. if that's true though, what's he actually doing? is there a reason that he can't speak or act in any real way beyond player deception? and where was he at the beginning? Eric and Mira must know Delta since they never question his presence, but they also never question the fact that he apparently showed up at the start of the game despite not being present in the coin flip scene. at least, I think he wasn't present then? if this is true then, like with old Sigma, there's probably been loads of little clues so far. but as with that, I've missed them all.

- more than this, the Triangle name entry decision game seems to imply that Delta is Q - if you type Q, it says that you should enter his "real name," and nothing worked until I tried Delta. one could therefore postulate that Sean was never called Q in the first place. based on this, I tried to think back to whether people have been referring to Sean as Q, and I don't think they have been - but I'm sure that the Zero voiceover told Q he was the team captain, and Sean has been the one pressing the buttons and such. maybe I'm forgetting something, but it seems like there's a hole here.

- it also doesn't entirely add up for Delta to be Zero considering he'd be a young man, and he claimed to inherit the transporter twenty years prior (not to mention implying that he was an old man in Sean's ending). maybe he's skipping around history like we are though, and his consciousness is older. who knows.

- even if all of this is true, it's still not at all clear what Delta wants. transporting is encouraged, but SHIFTing is prohibited. he's happy to brutally murder his parents and even himself based on pure chance, yet when spoken to personally he seems forthcoming and honest. and what the shit was that coin flip at the beginning about? no matter how you look at it, this game is absurd. are his intentions evil, in a Free the Soul / Radical-6 affiliated way, as I long assumed? is he trying to alter or cancel the circumstances of his birth somehow? is he, in his own bizarre way, actually trying to save the world as we are? I don't think I can answer that yet.
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Well you see, he's complex
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Giggsalot posted...

if so, that's a contrivance even beyond Sigma never looking at a single reflective surface

as someone in the middle of a VLR replay, the reflective surfaces are all obscured or covered up in some way (and considering older Sigma is Zero in VLR, he could go out of his way to make sure this happened to prevent the jig from being up)

I mean there are plenty of reasons it's silly that Sigma never noticed he was old but that aspect actually seems to have been thought through for the most part
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foolm0r0n posted...

and it's the ONE place in the entire game they ask "WHAT IS Q'S REAL NAME" (and Sean doesn't even work),

So you're saying when you saw that scene, it ruined the twist that that kid isn't Q? Since you seem to have been perfectly aware that Delta was Q's real name, and that someone offscreen got shot, it seems like a big neon sign that "the kid isn't Q", or else the kid would have been the one who was shot when you used Q's name.

Which then means that the multiple lines of dialogue in the actual reveal that someone else was called "Q" all along are essentially useless, because they developers apparently "wanted you to" know that twist ahead of time.

Plus, typing something like "Me" or "Myself" gives the message You cannot commit suicide, so it still doesn't make any sense to even try "Q's real name" unless you already know that the kid isn't Q.

And as we can see from Giggs's latest post, he's also arriving at that same conclusion before actually playing through the Q fragment. But I suppose being able to figure out 90% of the twist before it actually gets revealed is more "hype" than getting mindfucked at the actual reveal.

foolm0r0n posted...

the result of putting in Delta specifically does nothing but hype up the final reveals

And here's where we differ. The best parts of 999 and VLR are when you learn that the game has been lying to you in ways that you didn't even think were possible. The narrator is Akane in the past seeing all of the possible future paths? The fact that nobody recognizes Kyle in the ending is because you haven't actually seen what Sigma looks like during VLR? Those are amazing twists. As is the idea that there's another person, totally unseen throughout ZTD, whose very existence isn't known until you solve what appears to be a completely different puzzle. After all, they just ask you what Zero's name is. You have no indication that he's in the room until Sean points to him.

I don't see how telling you early that Sean isn't Q and that Q/Delta is another person on Q Team is supposed to "hype up" the ending.
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LeonhartFour posted...

I mean there are plenty of reasons it's silly that Sigma never noticed he was old but that aspect actually seems to have been thought through for the most part

It's way worse in another Uchikoshi game. It actually worked pretty well in VLR.
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The one I problem I have is with his hair. Having longer vs. shorter hair is definitely noticeable even without actualyl touching one's head.
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That's true but you also just woke up from a weird sleep so you might just accept whatever hair you had. Your skin and muscles and stuff you should feel though. Even with prosthetics.
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The muscles in his 67-year-old body would probably be more "used to" his age, so they might not have been sending a signal to his nervous system that anything felt particularly wrong. At least, not anything that wasn't already covered via his general "my body feels a little weird" feeling that he was already brushing off as being a lingering side effect of the sedative.

For me, the biggest issue was his eye. You're telling me he never tried rubbing his eyes or his face throughout the entire AB Project? Or felt that there was no eyelid when blinking? Even when solving puzzles? Or trying to stare through a bikini on a poster?
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shifting this topic to a universe where it won't purge soon
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Giggsalot posted...

shifting this topic to a universe where it won't purge soon

But that just means you SHIFTed the version of you who was diligent with updates to a history where the topic gets purged anyway, just like that guy who I will call M in that famous time travel movie with the car.
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^
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We need to post the video when this playthrough is over.

You guys know the one.
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C-Team in their last few fragments:

https://i.redd.it/ea0xdfnm8vdx.png
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Q

we return to the transporter room, where Eric has just shot dead Carlos. blind to everyone else's horror, our murderous friend turns next on Sean, who proposes that perhaps removing his helmet might prove his innocence.

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he can't remember. how could he know? Eric shoots him in the chest, and Sigma and Diana break down, failing once again to notice the conspicuous lack of blood flowing from the child's corpse.

GAME OVER

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somehow, Sean remembers the code, and to the astonishment of everyone watching, his helmet falls off and rolls across the floor. avoiding other explanations for now (I guess there is a gun at his head), he points out that his mechanical nature and white blood means he couldn't be Mira's killer. Eric can't deny the logic, but somewhat reasonably points out that Q's presence in general is suddenly exceptionally suspicious. Q finally admits his role in the game and his knowledge of who the real Zero is.

Zero, he says hesitantly, is...

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"Eric." at this final taunt from the universe, Eric decides to cut his losses and murder-suicide everyone. oh well, at least Gab didn't die.

GAME OVER

(answering Sigma, Mira and Gab provided similar scenes. any other good ones to try?)

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it's come to this, has it?

The real Zero is...you, Delta!

the camera pans to a monitor-like view. Eric reacts with shock. Diana and Sigma look troubled. the screen swivels around. and old man Q stands up from his wheelchair.

where to start with what comes next? we receive explicit confirmation that Delta, our invisible, wheelchair-bound, presumed deafblind companion, is Zero, and the implicit suggestion that we've actually been watching the whole game through his eyes, thanks to his special security feed lenses. we also learn that Mira's been off the leash with regard to drug injections for the whole game just to fuck with people, which explains the random killings as well as her ability to transcend wards / chronology.

Sean reveals that the locked X Door can be reopened from the central control room, and Eric forces Delta there. we begin the process of unlocking the system, when two shotgun blasts rings out. Eric looks down in bewilderment, and finds himself thrown to the floor, with the gun pointed to his neck against his will. a third shot rings out.

Delta relinquishes his psychic grip on the dying Eric, announces he has "no more use for this history", and turns to a petrified Diana, the last woman standing.

"Mom", he says quietly, and the screen goes black.

Q-END: 2
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Giggsalot posted...

Zero, he says hesitantly, is...

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"Eric." at this final taunt from the universe, Eric decides to cut his losses and murder-suicide everyone. oh well, at least Gab didn't die.

GAME OVER

I actually lol'd, well done. XD

Q-END 2 is fucking crazy good ahhhhhhhh
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Finally. There's a lot to unpack here, so let me start with your speculation post.

Giggsalot posted...

have we been seeing the Q team segments through the eyes of an unseen fourth character who literally never speaks?

Not quite - he's just always off-camera. You can actually see his shadow in a lot of scenes if you look towards the edge of the screen. For example, during that whole standoff you just had in the Transporter room, you can see his shadow to the right of Eric.

Giggsalot posted...

and where was he at the beginning? Eric and Mira must know Delta since they never question his presence, but they also never question the fact that he apparently showed up at the start of the game despite not being present in the coin flip scene. at least, I think he wasn't present then?

He wasn't at the coin flip, but they all got the memory-erasing cocktail after that segment, so nobody would remember that he wasn't there. However, when you won the coin flip, just before passing out Carlos says that he knows who Zero is - because he's noticed that the old guy from D-COM is nowhere to be found.

Giggsalot posted...

there's probably been loads of little clues so far. but as with that, I've missed them all.

Yeah, there's a lot. For example:

The members of both C-Team and D-Team know who Q is (after Q-Team gets executed, in one scene they mention that his handicap meant he probably didn't know what was going on, as and example), but none of them recognize the robot (C-Team gets attacked by him when they try to use the passwords from the bad dice roll reality, and Sigma and Diana when they meet everyone after Transporting in).

In one of the bad endings of Triangle, Mira shoots Sean, but there's an extra gunshot - because she also shoots Q. In fact, the facility voice then announces that Q is dead, but Sean has a line after that announcement (because Sean isn't dead, but Q is).

Here's my absolute favorite one. Remember that status screen that tells you who is alive and who is dead? You probably haven't looked at it for a while because it isn't very useful. Well, on the D-END 2 path, it shows only Sigma, Diana, and Akane alive - Akane escaped the facility, and Sigma and Diana are still in there. Everyone else is marked as dead. But after the twins are born, Phi and Q are both updated back to "Alive" status, since both Phi and Delta are now alive at that moment in that history.

There are a ton of others too. Someone compiled a whole list on Reddit with those hints, but you still have some game left to go so I'll wait until you finish them up before linking you.

Giggsalot posted...

I tried to think back to whether people have been referring to Sean as Q, and I don't think they have been - but I'm sure that the Zero voiceover told Q he was the team captain, and Sean has been the one pressing the buttons and such. maybe I'm forgetting something, but it seems like there's a hole here.

When the Zero voiceover says that Q is the team leader, both Eric and Mira voice surprise. Not because the kid is apparently supposed to make the team decisions, but because the blind and deaf guy is. They just don't object to Sean doing stuff because they don't really expect Q to do anything.

(And yes, this post was pre-written based on your speculation post, because I had no idea how long it woild take to actually hit Q-END 2.)
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Apocalypse

for our penultimate adventure, we join Junpei and Akane, the C team's transporters, in the universe that connects to the timeline of Virtue's Last Reward. they quickly discover the rubble left from the explosion that allowed Sigma and Diana to escape. just as they figure out approximately what has transpired in this strange history, Zero appears onscreen and congratulates them on finding the history where he can tell them the truth. cue the infodump.

we learn that Delta is Brother, leader of Free the Soul. we learn that, through his psychic powers, he learned of an upcoming apocalyptic war started by the actions of one rogue individual, and decided to play the odds and kill off three quarters of humanity for the chance to save the remaining 25 %. we learn that he was sent back to 1904 along with his sister Phi. we learn the passcode for the "Pandora's Boxes" labelled with Force Quit, the direction of our final assault on time and fate.

Zero bids us farewell, and just as Junpei and Akane are resigning themselves to a life alone in the facility, Gab appears with a note of mysterious origin, which Akane uses to decode the anagram on the wall. just as Junpei begins to figure out the mystery of Q and Delta, an explosion rocks the facility, and Carlos appears in a jumpsuit to save them all. this may be a dark timeline, but maybe there are happy endings within it after all.

the credits roll, and we cut to Team C at the exit of the facility. Carlos explains that he shifted to the First Come First Saved timeline, transported back ten months, and waited in the facility. he didn't stop Zero's plan because he genuinely valued the experiences it gave him, or some fantastical nonsense like that, but he did manage to save Akane and Junpei and give the universe another chance. Akane, in brutal time queen mode, states her plan and, ignoring Junpei's pleas to join the project, stabs him with the amnesia bracelet to give him a chance of living a somewhat normal life. the fact that he doesn't take it just makes this scene even more heartbreaking. maybe there are no happy endings in this timeline after all.

Carlos stares at Akane as she walks away, wondering how the hell a nice guy like him got caught up in this psychic warfare insanity.

C-END: 1
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There's one constant in the timestream, that Akane is kind of a bitch
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FFnut posted...

Here's my absolute favorite one. Remember that status screen that tells you who is alive and who is dead? You probably haven't looked at it for a while because it isn't very useful. Well, on the D-END 2 path, it shows only Sigma, Diana, and Akane alive - Akane escaped the facility, and Sigma and Diana are still in there. Everyone else is marked as dead. But after the twins are born, Phi and Q are both updated back to "Alive" status, since both Phi and Delta are now alive at that moment in that history.

haha, this is fantastic. I'm sure it's like the Old Sigma thing in VLR - they can't make it too obvious for first-time players or else it would kind of ruin the whole game, but on a replay you kick yourself for not noticing the clues. I still think keeping him off-screen all game is contrived to the point of being mildly ridiculous, since there's been no unreliable narration in this series at all so far, but at least it's been entertaining.

I had forgotten that Carlos said he knew who Zero was in the coin flip win ending too, that's a fun easter egg.
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Also I laughed at Zero secretly being Old Man Wesker
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Carlos is a god damn champion. Dude gets so much shit done in this game once he discovers his powers. At first I had mixed feelings that everything he did basically only resulted in a bad end, but thinking on it more, his actions are the only reason there's any glimmer of hope in VLR and ZTD to begin with!
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yeah, Carlos seems like one of the few vaguely "regular dude" type guys in the series with the willpower and skill to be genuinely capable of helping out the series' superheroes like Akane, Junpei and the Klim clan. maybe only Snake and Seven compete in that regard.

I hope the game gives him a nice sendoff, the guy deserves some happiness!

(lol this game and happiness, who am i kidding)
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I think youre forgetting that life is simply unfair
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Xiahou Shake posted...

hahahaha

delta being old as fuck might actually make his cringy edge-dripping teenage nihilistic cynicism even worse

by the way, how much time (loops and paradoxes aside) should the remainder of the game take me? would be good to know if it's worth trying to fit into one session or split in two.
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https://i.redd.it/ftmxs5dlq48x.jpg
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Giggsalot posted...

Xiahou Shake posted...

hahahaha

delta being old as fuck might actually make his cringy edge-dripping teenage nihilistic cynicism even worse

by the way, how much time (loops and paradoxes aside) should the remainder of the game take me? would be good to know if it's worth trying to fit into one session or split in two.

Pretty simple. Should just be all three Force Quit sections (each one has a different password requirement, which you got from each team's last ending), and then finally the big exposition dump in a few parts.

There aren't any more puzzle rooms or anything, so it's really just cutscene length. Maybe an hour or two from here on out? I don't remember offhand.
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Giggsalot posted...

C-END: 1

This ending is also hilarious because Carlos is the one who unleashes Radical-6 on the world by saving Junpei and Akane
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Giggsalot posted...

since there's been no unreliable narration in this series at all so far

It's great because this is a twist made for people who saw both 999 and VLR twists, and so have been looking for this game's twist since the first scene. The game has to be a bit more hostile/defensive to the player in that case. I don't think it's much more of a stretch than 999/VLR though. Those narrative perspectives had some unreliability in them too.

After all, it's the same twist. The player is Zero. It's the same damn thing that Uchikoshi has been using since Ever17. It's so obvious but it's still surprising and insane.
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foolm0r0n posted...

Giggsalot posted...

C-END: 1

This ending is also hilarious because Carlos is the one who unleashes Radical-6 on the world by saving Junpei and Akane

How do you figure that? Radical-6-infected Phi already left the facility with both armless Sigma and "I just killed six billion people" Diana before Akane and Junpei even Transported into that history. C-END 1 takes place directly after D-END 1.

Hell, Akane and Junpei find rubble collapsed into the hole that D-Team blew in the Decontamination Room wall with that same bomb that took Sigma's arms.
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Oh yeah

I guess what I thought was funny was that Carlos went through all that effort just to get infected by R6 and eventually die. But I guess he eventually shifts to another path anyways.
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let's open some boxes tomorrow, gentlemen
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I mean, we can open one box. Three times. Since the teams are all in the same lounge.
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One of the passwords is a pain in the ass so just look it up if you can't get it, since you're supposed to know it. I got stuck there for a bit.
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Hype for the final part.
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My hype is .... complex
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aaaaaaaaaaand go!

Force Quit: C

I awaken with team C and enter the Force Quit password, and Akane and Junpei query Carlos as to how he could possibly have known. at first, he isn't sure, but a mention of SHIFTing seems to bring all his alternate history memories back and trigger a profound transformation.

after thinking silently for upwards of an hour, Carlos breaks his silence to... begin acting like a total asshole? out of nowhere, he starts sexually harassing Akane, inciting Junpei's rage, and then allows Junpei to beat the cra out of him. he then offers to make peace by pouring them all a drink, but drops the glass on the floor and asks the others to help him clean it up. if this is a masterplan, it's all a very odd one.

the televised Zero appears and informs them their conscious time is over. one down, two to go.
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Vive hodie. Live for today.

Because there might not be a tomorrow.

Also, I'm still not sure how Carlos knew that password, since he didn't get into the shelter until after that message already played for Akane and Junpei.
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Force Quit: Q

Q team awaken and find the partially opened Force Quit box bearing the note about the central computer. Sean regains all his memories and takes over, unlocking the panel and his helmet, causing Eric to collapse and break down like a sissy. Sean explains everything to his half hysterical, half disinterested audience, and starts up the computer.

The Force Quit box shifts to a request for two "mother's mementos", and the televised Zero appears and informs them their time is up. two down, one to go.
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38080832 (the Quantum Computer password) divided by 2 is 19040416.

61404091 (Sean's helmet password) backwards is 19040416.

Since Zero said in C-END 1 that he had been Transported to 1904, the current interpretation of this is that it should actually be formatted as 1904-04-16, and it is the date that Delta and his sister were Transported to from D-END 2.

Also, it's funny because Q-Team can't SHIFT like the other teams, so only Sean is able to pick up his memories from the other timelines because they're all stored in the Quantum Computer.
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Force Quit: D

D team awaken and find the partially opened Force Quit box and its new message. Sigma asks Diana if this means anything to her, triggering a breakdown as her memories, so much more complex than even Carlos and Q's, flood into her head. she rushes up and hugs Phi tight, and after a moment of confusion, Sigma and Phi's memories return too, and the team - no, family - join in a silent, tearful embrace.
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Giggsalot posted...

so much more complex than even Carlos and Q's

Did you mean Sean here? Q is the old man in the wheelchair, remember.

And you're about to find out just how complex he can be.
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"Junpei's fierce punches were too much for me!"
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Final Decision

thanks to Sean's hacking and Carlos' ruse, our nine heroes finally find themselves in the same space and time. after some pleasantries and mild exposition, we are joined by our tenth companion, Delta, brandishing a shotgun and an infodump.

Delta is not a SHIFTer, but his ability to read minds allowed him to learn of multiple histories, and he became fascinated with the human power of decision making and its ability to fashion different universes. he brought about this decision game not only to ensure the occurence of Phi's and his birth, but the circumstances of it as well - without the crisis element, his mind-reading ability would fail to materialize.

at this point, Carlos interjects, asking why Delta involved those outside his immediate family in the game. Delta extols the deep and impressive complexity of his motives, but before he can elaborate Phi's rage boils over and she smashes him into a wall with one of her trademark flying kicks. Eric, unsurprisingly, is first to the shotgun, and holds Delta at gunpoint while Diana finally places the brooch and the music box into the Force Quit box.

it is only then that the alarms start ringing.
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Giggsalot posted...

Eric, unsurprisingly, is first to the shotgun

I found this a lot more hilarious than I should've when I played