Board 8 > ~FIGHT!~ The Hollow Knight vs. Doomguy

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KanzarisKelshen
09/23/18 9:54:07 PM
#1:


The Hollow Knight has challenged Doomguy to a fight! Location of the fight: Kamurocho - A red light district city in Japan, as seen in the Yakuza series, with access to the surrounding cities restricted as it is in-game. No regular inhabitants are here, but everything is otherwise just as it usually is, with plenty of businesses, buildings, connected rooftops, alleyways, and underground paths. Attackers will start at the intersection between Nakamichi and Showa Street, with defenders starting at the foot of the Millennium Tower.. Which side will win?

Guidelines

- The fight will occur in real-time (like an FMV sequence). Gameplay mechanics are less important than how the characters would function in a real-time environment.
- The members of each team are ideal teammates capable of a pre-selected plan of battle.
- "Broken" refers to a lot of things, including insta-death, auto-effects, a variety of status effects (e.g., Imp, Silence, Stop, *not* Poison), and revival. Unless stated otherwise, nobody has them, though do use your own discretion.
- There may be SPOILERS from all of the games the characters are from.

Rules for Voting

- Bold your votes (using bold HTML tags).
- You do not need to require justification for your vote, though the admins reserve the right to disqualify votes in the advent of obvious alt voting and other similar scenarios.
- Leaders cannot vote for their own teams (and players from the same pool may not vote as well), but they are free to argue their case.
- If you want to switch your votes simply bold the change; there's no need to delete your post, though you may if you wish.
- This match will end in 24 hours.
- The following conventions are in use for match topics: www.gamefaqs.com/boards/570224-mercs/75290480/878106427

The Hollow Knight is as he appears in Hollow Knight and its DLCs, equipped with the Pure Nail and all his tools, including the upgraded Dream Nail, and starting with a full Soul gauge and three full sub gauges. He has the charms Soul Eater, Shaman Stone, Spell Twister, Quick Slash, Longnail, Mark of Pride, Sharp Shadow, Dashmaster and Void Heart equipped. All of his spells are empowered to become their Void versions, and he is considered to be the size of a normal, if small human. He will not leave a Void Ghost behind or return if he dies.

~VS~

Doomguy is as seen in Doom II. He comes to battle carrying a Pistol, Chainsaw, Chaingun, Shotgun, Plasma Gun, Super Shotgun and Rocket Launcher.

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Two slayers meet. Only one will survive...Fight!
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KanzarisKelshen
09/23/18 9:54:15 PM
#2:


So I'd like to take a little time to talk about both these characters, because I'm a huge stan for both and I think I know them pretty well.

Doomguy is pretty well known - quintessential FPS protagonist, killed six billion demons, yadda yadda yadda. What I want to emphasize about him is an oft forgotten fact - he's fast. I can bring up numbers, but they don't really matter. What's important to remember is he's far, far beyond peak human speeds. He's a kiting machine and should be absolutely treated as such. It's to the point they kept that as a canonical trait in the Doom reboot and followed it up by giving him literal rocket boosters for Doom Eternal.

The Hollow Knight comes from a more recent game - if you haven't played it, it's basically Metroidvania meets Dark Souls, and for my money, the best metroidvania of the last decade. He has all the mobility tools and versatility you'd expect from the protagonist of such a game - double jump, dashes, wallclimbs, superdash that can propel him through the air infinitely, you get the idea. His most notable tool is the Shade Cloak, which allows him to turn intangible briefly and, thanks to a Charm (ability modifier) he has equipped for this fight, cut through enemies, damaging them, if he dashes through them. He has the ability to heal himself if he focuses, using 'Soul' which he obtains from hitting enemies quite quickly, and he can cast a few offensive spells with his 'Soul' as well. His durability is a bit unknown, but it's worth noting he tanked a fall that's about fifteen (yes you read that right) screens long into a pile of hard corpses before his adventure even started, and he has 'masks' that act as hitpoints and amplify his durability further, keeping his body from collapsing so his void essence doesn't disperse. More powerful attacks break more masks, so he can probably take a few hits but not too many.

However, durability isn't what makes the Knight impressive. It's something else that I think even people who played Hollow Knight not too recently ought to check out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3navOsvDCw" data-time="&start=2089


You probably noticed the amount of seconds on the timestamp above. This is the end of a boss rush that pits the Knight against enhanced versions of every single boss in the game, DLCs included, with only a few breaks every 6 to 10 bosses. This boss rush is canonical, requires defeating every other boss in the game in batches of 10, sets up an upcoming DLC, and leads to a full-fledged ending, overriding the finale that existed before the DLC it came with was released. If you want to see the Knight in action, I recommend giving it a look. It's maybe 6 minutes of actual showings, all in all.
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ScareChan
09/23/18 10:38:08 PM
#3:


hollowknight solos
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Lopen
09/23/18 10:41:08 PM
#4:


Doomguy

Literally goes knee deep in the opposition's kin
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Johnbobb
09/23/18 11:05:24 PM
#5:


Initial thought was Doomguy easy, having played all of Hollow Knight except Godmaster

I think a big part of what makes Hollow Knight good is that in his boss fights he's in a relatively confined space where he doesn't have to be openly mobile beyond dodging attacks and can learn boss patterns

There won't be any patterns to learn with Doomguy. Doomguy also has a huge range advantage and beyond dodging Hollow Knight has no way to defend himself

Plus in Hollow Knight we know explosives of pretty much any kind do at 2 masks of damage minimum to Hollow Knight, and I'd wager the Super Shotgun and Rocket Launcher might do even more than that
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Khal Kirby, warlord of the Super Star Khalasar
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KanzarisKelshen
09/23/18 11:09:50 PM
#6:


Confined spaces would rather hinder learning patterns, not help I think

From my Godmaster experience, the only way to really survive the Pure Vessel (second to last boss in that vid) was to get the hell away because up close his everything was completely undodgeable. He will absolutely wreck you if you try to stay too close or sustain a relentless assault.

This said, I feel like Hollow Knight has a huge mobility advantage here. Like Doomguy is limited mostly to landbound mobility - HK can take to the rooftops and pick and choose the engagement. I honestly don't know who wins here, but I don't think this match is a runaway stomp for either character, just because both have excellent tools to counter the opposition with.

EDIT: Also I cannot emphasize it enough, Godmaster might as well be an entirely different game from everything preceding it except Nightmare King Grimm. The difficulty is so far beyond that it practically ruins the base game because you can stomp it with ease.I spent a solid like, eight hours grinding the Pantheon of the Knight where you had to fight the Pure Vessel as the final boss, and most of that time was learning him and getting destroyed over and over again while bodying the Dream Bosses that served as a warmup.
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greengravy294
09/23/18 11:14:06 PM
#7:


Leaning doomfuy but didnt read arguments
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Eddv
09/24/18 12:26:47 AM
#8:


doomguy

Ranged advantage and hes pretty beefy himself.
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KanzarisKelshen
09/24/18 3:19:02 PM
#9:


greengravy294 posted...
Leaning doomfuy but didnt read arguments


There's arguments? So far it's just been votes lol (and a bit of talking about wtf the characters do I guess)
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Johnbobb
09/24/18 3:46:22 PM
#10:


the way I see it, Hollow Knight gets the jump, maybe hits Doomguy once or twice and then dodges away

But I don't think I see him getting away quick enough for Doomguy to lose him

I think this largely boils down to Hollow Knight getting in some hits, followed by Doomguy doing the same, Hollow Knight evading to heal, but gradually losing soul over time due to not gaining it back fast enough

I'm gonna lean Doomguy here
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Khal Kirby, warlord of the Super Star Khalasar
PSN/Steam: CheddarBBQ https://goo.gl/Diw2hs
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Johnbobb
09/24/18 3:52:15 PM
#11:


however this did lean me in the direction that Hollow Knight would beat most 3/weeks

I think he's gonna run into trouble with anyone tanky though
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Khal Kirby, warlord of the Super Star Khalasar
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KanzarisKelshen
09/24/18 4:03:07 PM
#12:


Johnbobb posted...
however this did lean me in the direction that Hollow Knight would beat most 3/weeks

I think he's gonna run into trouble with anyone tanky though


This is why I made this match yeah

After getting through Godmaster I just can't see him losing even to heavyweights like Lloyd, he's just too good at dueling. But on the other hand, I don't know if he beats any 4s besides borderline ones like Ike and Kratos (whom he'd beat I think pretty cleanly). He might be the most precise benchmark for what it takes to be Mid Tier in the history of Mercenaries.
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LOLIAmAnAlt
09/24/18 4:15:53 PM
#13:


Can doomguy go berserk?
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KanzarisKelshen
09/24/18 4:26:48 PM
#14:


LOLIAmAnAlt posted...
Can doomguy go berserk?


Requires external powerups, so no. Just normal Doomguy. Does have max HP and armor tho
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IfGodCouldDie
09/24/18 10:00:51 PM
#15:


The setting is a cityscape, correct?
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KanzarisKelshen
09/24/18 10:47:23 PM
#16:


IfGodCouldDie posted...
The setting is a cityscape, correct?


Yes, it is.
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IfGodCouldDie
09/25/18 7:06:34 AM
#17:


How effectively can Doomguy utilize this setting? I imagine HK, can use it quite well with his mobility. I'm just unsure of whether or not this setting favours HK or not.

Also what is Doomguy's ability to heal look like? And what would a hit and run style do for HK?
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ScareChan
09/25/18 6:20:33 PM
#18:


From what I have seen of Doomguy from the most recent Doom his guns can do heavy dps but I feel like Hollowknight is too elusive. he is is small target and has a lot of mobility options. His dash also gives him some damage immunity and the guys he beats in lore are pretty damn awesome.

Hollowknight is my 3/week Diablo *hugs*
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ScareChan
09/25/18 6:23:26 PM
#19:


also give him a 5/week upgrade ability that brings grim troupe or at least NKG once every 4 weeks
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KanzarisKelshen
09/25/18 6:28:09 PM
#20:


ScareChan posted...
From what I have seen of Doomguy from the most recent Doom his guns can do heavy dps but I feel like Hollowknight is too elusive. he is is small target and has a lot of mobility options. His dash also gives him some damage immunity and the guys he beats in lore are pretty damn awesome.

Hollowknight is my 3/week Diablo *hugs*


Doomguy as seen in Doom 4 eviscerates the hollow knight. It's not even a contest. The Doom Slayer is like, a 6/week who would crush Master Chief, never mind the Hollow Knight.
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Johnbobb
09/25/18 6:28:40 PM
#21:


ScareChan posted...
Hollowknight is my 3/week Diablo *hugs*

he's probably gonna be tiered 4/week
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Khal Kirby, warlord of the Super Star Khalasar
PSN/Steam: CheddarBBQ https://goo.gl/Diw2hs
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KanzarisKelshen
09/25/18 6:38:42 PM
#22:


Johnbobb posted...
ScareChan posted...
Hollowknight is my 3/week Diablo *hugs*

he's probably gonna be tiered 4/week


Uncertain if he will. This match tells me he's probably a 3/week but a really strong one. We'll see.
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ScareChan
09/25/18 6:59:58 PM
#23:


hollowknight vs tidus
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KanzarisKelshen
09/25/18 7:15:50 PM
#24:


ScareChan posted...
hollowknight vs tidus


now this im hype about
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Lopen
09/25/18 7:22:47 PM
#25:


Needs to be Tidus without spells to be interesting imo
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KanzarisKelshen
09/25/18 7:26:51 PM
#26:


Lopen posted...
Needs to be Tidus without spells to be interesting imo


sorta agree yeah

Tidus with Haste I think would still lose to the Knight actually

Tidus with Haste and Slow both? Wins on speed, Knight too nerfed by that.

(Relatedly, pondering another match. Doomfist vs Heihachi Mishima, who ya got?)
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Johnbobb
09/25/18 7:41:51 PM
#27:


KanzarisKelshen posted...
(Relatedly, pondering another match. Doomfist vs Heihachi Mishima, who ya got?)

I'll have to rewatch Doomfist's lore videos again to catch up, because in-game he's fucked over by cooldowns. Depends how much merit you give that.

By memory, Heihachi catching a bullet in his teeth and Doomfist catching Tracer mid-blink without looking puts them about even on reaction time I think
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KanzarisKelshen
09/25/18 8:06:37 PM
#28:


He would have access to lore stuff, yes

and of course Heihachi would be as he appears in Tekken 7 because lmao forcing him to fight in any other form I ain't that cruel
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ScareChan
09/25/18 8:11:35 PM
#29:


Heihachi and Akuma on even footing due to Tekken 6. H should get boost to build imo
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KanzarisKelshen
09/25/18 8:21:55 PM
#30:


That's why I want to H in a fight, because last time we saw him seriously he got 0 respect (this was way back in M3)

But then I looked at M4 and oops, we have no punchdudes in the 4/week bracket besides him (and M Bison who might also be in the wrong bracket now, so yeah). Could also put him up against Golbez or Luca Blight if people think that's a more even match ass well.
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ScareChan
09/25/18 8:22:53 PM
#31:


meant 7 yeah, stuck on 6
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