Board 8 > Scarlet Fixes The Comic Book Movies: Dawn of Just Us

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Lopen
10/11/18 3:22:22 PM
102
scarletspeed7 posted...
For example, I think Jack Nicholson isn't a particularly thrilling Joker - I think he COULD be, but the movie at times lacks some the killer instinct he displays in films like The Shining. But I'm not going to recast one of the most iconic movie roles in the genre. I'm going to recast the other role.


Bleh. You were so close too.

Nicholson Joker ruined Joker for me for years. That would absolutely be the chief change I'd make. I think Nicholson's portrayal is a terrible Joker and is basically just cliche Jack Nicholson phoning in his standard crazy guy while wearing face paint. I'm not really sure he could do it better as I think Nicholson as an actor has the Will Smith problem (well I love Will Smith so it's usually okay) in that he plays himself before the role and Nicholson's crazy guy just isn't working for Joker imo even with the Shining level of grimdark. Too much angry crazy dude not enough nuance there.

I do kinda like the idea of Keanu Reeves as an attempt to have a franchise Batman though. Like the gut reaction is he's Ted or Point Break until he matures a bit but he played a decent enough serious role in Speed which wasn't all that much later, so I'm pretty sure he could do it if he wasn't being typecast as surfers at the time.
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scarletspeed7
10/11/18 3:24:18 PM
103
I don't like it a lot either, but it is so fondly regarded and proved to be so successful that I feel like stepping on that role is a bad idea. Again, I would push it to The Shining a bit more, but otherwise, if it ain't broke...
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Pirate_Harris
10/11/18 3:26:38 PM
104
I think William da foe should be the joker
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scarletspeed7
10/11/18 3:27:37 PM
105
Not a bad casting, but if I do Willem Dafoe as the Joker, I really can't justify keeping him as Green Goblin. And I think "He's just the Joker" will hurt Spider-Man 1 when I get to it if I cast that way.
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Pirate_Harris
10/11/18 3:29:41 PM
106
scarletspeed7 posted...
Not a bad casting, but if I do Willem Dafoe as the Joker, I really can't justify keeping him as Green Goblin. And I think "He's just the Joker" will hurt Spider-Man 1 when I get to it if I cast that way.

Yeah your right and I loved him as the green goblin...
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Pirate_Harris
10/11/18 3:30:33 PM
107
Jim Carrey?
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Lopen
10/11/18 3:31:25 PM
108
I dunno man it's like... there's people liking an actor because he plays the role well, or just because he acts well in general. I think Nicholson Joker fans are more of the latter, which to me is a disservice to The Joker. Luckily we had Batman TAS Joker to tide us over until The Dark Knight gave us an actual interesting portrayal of Joker in movies, so it wasn't as bad as it could have been, but yeah, man. I really don't like Batman 1989 and it's probably 90% Nicholson's fault.

But I get what you're saying, I guess. People do like him, he's a proven commodity, and unlike with Keaton keeping him around doesn't introduce issues later with the guy aging out of the role or whatever, so it almost feels stupid to replace him, especially if you're taking a bit of a gamble with Keanu Reeves as well... in that sense Nicholson serves as a good safety net for the movie even if he does "ruin Joker" for a good while.

So I can respect it from the lens of the series. I would probably still axe him (and keep Keaton) in a stand alone though.
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scarletspeed7
10/11/18 3:31:41 PM
109
I can't comment on Jim Carrey too much right now, but I actually think he would be a bad Joker. Really, truly. He's the wrong kind of manic humor for the role.
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Lopen
10/11/18 3:31:55 PM
110
Pirate_Harris posted...
Jim Carrey?


This is almost as bad as Nicholson but along the other axis.
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Pirate_Harris
10/11/18 3:33:02 PM
111
scarletspeed7 posted...
I can't comment on Jim Carrey too much right now, but I actually think he would be a bad Joker. Really, truly. He's the wrong kind of manic humor for the role.

Hmmm alright I'll keep digging into different people
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scarletspeed7
10/11/18 3:34:54 PM
112
Lopen posted...
I dunno man it's like... there's people liking an actor because he plays the role well, or just because he acts well in general. I think Nicholson Joker fans are more of the latter, which to me is a disservice to The Joker. Luckily we had Batman TAS Joker to tide us over until The Dark Knight gave us an actual interesting portrayal of Joker in movies, so it wasn't as bad as it could have been, but yeah, man. I really don't like Batman 1989 and it's probably 90% Nicholson's fault.

But I get what you're saying, I guess. People do like him, he's a proven commodity, and unlike with Keaton keeping him around doesn't introduce issues later with the guy aging out of the role or whatever, so it almost feels stupid to replace him, especially if you're taking a bit of a gamble with Keanu Reeves as well... in that sense Nicholson serves as a good safety net for the movie even if he does "ruin Joker" for a good while.

So I can respect it from the lens of the series. I would probably still axe him (and keep Keaton) in a stand alone though.

I feel like I should at least give you my recommendation of a 1989 recast of the Joker, and my two options are this: James Woods and Christopher Walken. I feel like the former actually pulls off the role better, but Walken might look the role more.

The name really does play a lot of weight, when you think about it. Nicholson gives the movie a certain legitimacy simply by being attached.
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Pirate_Harris
10/11/18 3:36:58 PM
113
Tim curry or James woods?
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BetrayedTangy
10/11/18 3:39:06 PM
114
With the Joker I think cutting the Jack Napier stuff would help his performance tremoundsly. His one liners as Joker himself are great and incredibly iconic. Plus I think it strikes a good balance with the Joker performances, I like that he's sort of a middle ground Joker. This would give more time to focus on Bruce and the city of Gotham as a whole.
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scarletspeed7
10/11/18 3:41:23 PM
115
I considered cutting that, but Tim Burton wanted to make the story personal, and Jack Napier does that. If it was me, Joe Chill is the only person who ever kills Bruce's parents. It's a random act of violence, an act of a pitiful creature in the throes of a common crime. There's no easy justice for his parents, no super-villain.

But Burton tells a different story, and one that, for this series, I'm happy to maintain because making the first Batman film brings an emotional root to a character where emotional roots are very hard to find.
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Lopen
10/11/18 3:44:37 PM
116
I think all Woods, Walken, and Curry all are decent picks but I think I like Woods the most too. I also think Rutger Hauer or Jeremy Irons could probably do the role okay.

Most importantly for not picking Walken we get to keep Max Schreck in Batman Returns cause dude was awesome in that movie.
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scarletspeed7
10/11/18 3:46:58 PM
117
Hauer crossed my mind, actually. I'm not sure he could be funny enough. I think the same problem comes with Irons.
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Pirate_Harris
10/11/18 3:48:49 PM
118
What about the guy who played as two face in forever?
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Lopen
10/11/18 3:50:01 PM
119
Dude have you seen Irons in the Dungeons and Dragons movie that guy was a hoot. Give him that kinda delivery with lines that are actually intended to be funny and it would be awesome.

As for Hauer I found his character in Tales from a Parallel Universe: Eating Pattern to be... well, somewhat close to what I think would be a respectable portrayal of Joker. That's the main reason I'm giving him the benefit of a doubt there.

Still overall I think Woods is best. I'm not sure I would've thought of him before those two but yeah he's a better pick.
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scarletspeed7
10/11/18 4:06:02 PM
120
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (1990)
Nominated by: Xeybozen

Much like Howard the Duck, this entire film needs to be scrapped and repurposed. The technology of 1990 isn't really ready to make a TMNT film that doesn't look like B-Movie garbage. And perhaps that's okay. Maybe we have to more fully embrace the B-movie nature of the film in this regard because attempting to animate the movie is not going to set the world on fire. I think I would probably but I larger focus on making the turtles look aerodynamic and built for fighting, and I would probably keep the voices already in use for the movie.

I would probably seek out Robert Zemeckis to helm the project, at least as an executive producer. I he has a sense of comedic timing that is more timeless and ageless, and that sort of measured vision would prevent the script from diving in the trash too often. I'd also recast the human roles of the film completely. April O'Neal? Winona Ryder. Casey Jones? Emilio Estevez. Shredder? Hiroyuki Sanada.

Past that, I'm bringing in Zemeckis and letting him attempt to make this corny origin story into an endearing look at classic B-List movies, kung fu movies, all while being an early 90s children's film.

Thank god no one nominated more TMNT crap.
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Lopen
10/11/18 4:10:35 PM
121
The first TMNT is the only movie of theirs that I would call good unironically. It's not really what I'd call a "children's film" either in terms of the tone (TMNT2 and 3, sure). Very disappointing write-up. If you haven't seen the movie in a long time I'd suggest a rewatch if you ever find yourself bored as I feel like your thoughts on the series as a whole may have tainted your perception of the first one.
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scarletspeed7
10/11/18 4:16:05 PM
122
I mean, I'm clearly not a fan and I had to do a write-up because it was nominated. Much like Howard the Duck and Richie Rich, I really have no interest in expounding the virtues of these films outside of a quick creative change to hopefully make something interesting.
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KanzarisKelshen
10/11/18 4:25:19 PM
123
This writeup is interesting to me because, like, the ninja turtles are hella B-movieish already. It's been forever since I watched TMNT1, but I'm unsure how you could make it more gonzo without getting a Batman and Robin situation. Doesn't it already embrace its silly elements unironically, IIRC?
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scarletspeed7
10/11/18 4:29:02 PM
124
Rocketeer (1991)
Nominated by: birb

I absolutely love the concept of the Rocketeer, a character with such a great design that really hearkens back to the era of pulp characters. I always enjoy movies that open a window to a bygone age, and there's a certain innocence to older World War II movies like the Rocketeer and Indiana Jones. Combine that with interesting historical figures who are shrouded in mystery like Howard Hughes, and I think a script look-over could turn this into a classic movie.

I'd start with bringing a completely different tone to the movie. I'd look to reshoot this film with the style and coloring of Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow. Really, this film deserves to embrace its source era in all of the minimally-colored art deco glory. I would definitely push a color palette that highlights black, white, bronze, and red. Joe Johnston is a decent directorial choice already (and he eventually remakes the Rocketeer in 2011 as Captain America: The First Avenger), but I'd put the script in the hands of Steve Zaillian (notably of Awakenings, Schindler's List and Moneyball fame). He has a good sense for getting the flavor of an era, and that matters a lot.

This go-round, I would make a weird change to the casting. Timothy Dalton was playing the villain of the film, and I would kind of do the same thing... only I would remove Terry O'Quinn from the Howard Hughes role. Instead, I want to turn Hughes into a man who is playing the puppetmaster here. He arranged for the theft of his own product in order to eventually hand it off to the Nazis. In an era where we don't have a lot of twists in filmmaking, this type of twist would really play well with the audience.

I want to play up the science and technology of 1938 more. In fact, this is going to be less historically accurate than the movie was originally. Nazi agents will have unique weaponry that allow them to scale buildings faster or fire 30s-style ray guns, all property of Howard Hughes.

Aside from that, there are a lot of things I'm keeping exactly the same. The ending would feature a classic "It's not about morality, it's just business" defense from Hughes, and the Rocketeer (who, by the way, I would recast with Christian Slater, just on personal preference) would be the patriot the country needs.

It's a little more Indiana Jones, a little more Sky Captain, and a little less Disney than the movie was in 1991, but overall, I think the soul of the comic is more prevalent here.
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scarletspeed7
10/11/18 4:29:35 PM
125
KanzarisKelshen posted...
This writeup is interesting to me because, like, the ninja turtles are hella B-movieish already. It's been forever since I watched TMNT1, but I'm unsure how you could make it more gonzo without getting a Batman and Robin situation. Doesn't it already embrace its silly elements unironically, IIRC?

I mean, a more old school B-movie, 70s kung fu thing.
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Lopen
10/11/18 4:30:48 PM
126
Yeah I get it. I'm just saying I think your write-up seems to apply to most of the other movies from the series much more than the first one, which is generally well regarded as a good movie for all ages that holds up reasonably well and for good reason IMO.

Think you're overly harsh on the costumes too-- it's way ahead of Howard the Duck in terms of how stupid it looks. Heck I'll take their look from the 1990 film over the newer Michael Bay look every time.

I just feel like most of your grief with the series as a whole would be mitigated a lot with the 1990 film if it were given a fair chance. I mean maybe you did but the write-up reads like someone who started with Secret of the Ooze and begrudingly watched all the rest of em from that point.

To put it in perspective of a series you actually like, the TMNT quality distribution is like
Batman Returns = TMNT 1990
Batman Forever = TMNT 2: Secret of the Ooze
Batman And Robin = TMNT 3: Turtles in Time

So when you give Batman Returns a write-up that treats it like Batman Forever or Batman and Robin you can see why I'm disappointed, I guess.

Course now the spoiler is you're going to do just that with Batman Returns but you know. I'm just saying it really doesn't deserve to be treated like Howard the Duck here, by any attempt at an even half objective assessment. If the angle is "I just hate the Turtles and this isn't objective" that's fine-- I'm mostly just saying I feel like you shouldn't dislike this movie in particular all that much assuming I understand your grievances with the series in general at all, barring some deeply rooted hatred for the Turtles in general.
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CoolCly
10/11/18 4:46:47 PM
127
scarletspeed7 posted...
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (1990)
Nominated by: Xeybozen

Much like Howard the Duck, this entire film needs to be scrapped and repurposed. The technology of 1990 isn't really ready to make a TMNT film that doesn't look like B-Movie garbage. And perhaps that's okay. Maybe we have to more fully embrace the B-movie nature of the film in this regard because attempting to animate the movie is not going to set the world on fire. I think I would probably but I larger focus on making the turtles look aerodynamic and built for fighting, and I would probably keep the voices already in use for the movie.

I would probably seek out Robert Zemeckis to helm the project, at least as an executive producer. I he has a sense of comedic timing that is more timeless and ageless, and that sort of measured vision would prevent the script from diving in the trash too often. I'd also recast the human roles of the film completely. April O'Neal? Winona Ryder. Casey Jones? Emilio Estevez. Shredder? Hiroyuki Sanada.

Past that, I'm bringing in Zemeckis and letting him attempt to make this corny origin story into an endearing look at classic B-List movies, kung fu movies, all while being an early 90s children's film.

Thank god no one nominated more TMNT crap.


i have seen this movie dozens if not hundreds of times and i am EXTREMELY offended by your writeup
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Snake5555555555
10/11/18 4:54:14 PM
128
I would absolutely love a more retrofuturistic Rocketeer, the original film is already top-notch and that would make it even better.
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scarletspeed7
10/11/18 5:22:55 PM
129
Snake5555555555 posted...
I would absolutely love a more retrofuturistic Rocketeer, the original film is already top-notch and that would make it even better.

I feel like those of us who like the movie are few and far between!
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FakeAccount3000
10/11/18 6:21:14 PM
130
I too feel the first TMNT film didnt deserve that bad of a thrashing while admitting the second I like because I was a tmnt fan as a kid and the third is just... really bad.
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Lopen
10/11/18 6:38:45 PM
131
I like the second film as well, but I would accept it being disrespected because I mean, it's really not very good it's just a guilty pleasure of mine. The first TMNT I feel deserves some base amount of respect, though, cause it does do a lot of things well. Similar to how I might not like, say, Batman 1989 very much I realize there are things it does well too in spite of my extreme distaste for it-- I wouldn't compare it to like Batman and Robin even if, speaking honestly, it's a really close call between the two for me.
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scarletspeed7
10/11/18 6:39:39 PM
132
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/teenage_mutant_ninja_turtles_the_movie/
Let's not pretend there's a consensus.
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Lopen
10/11/18 7:00:54 PM
133
I think you may not be familiar with the site Rotten Tomatoes. What actual panned movies look like

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/howard_the_duck/
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/1077027_batman_and_robin
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/teenage_mutant_ninja_turtles_iii

I'm not saying everyone should necessarily like it, just that it deserves some amount of respect. Audience score of 80% combined with a tomato score that isn't total garbage is probably a sign that there's something the movie is doing right in there. I'd sooner trust a high audience score and a poor tomatometer than the reverse, in any case.

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/hulk

I hope no one seriously thinks that movie's good because it has 61% tomatoes.
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scarletspeed7
10/11/18 7:21:20 PM
134
I think you may not be familiar with what barking up the wrong tree looks like:

Lopen posted...
I'm not saying everyone should necessarily like it, just that it deserves some amount of respect. Audience score of 80% combined with a tomato score that isn't total garbage is probably a sign that there's something the movie is doing right in there. I'd sooner trust a high audience score and a poor tomatometer than the reverse, in any case.


I clearly was pointing out that not everyone shares your sentiment, namely me, someone who actually is stuck doing lame-ass write-ups for Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. I kept it short and sweet because people like you - sorry - people who are exactly you - always feel the need to crusade stupidly for people to give a shit about something about which they don't give a shit. There are 100 movies here, and my downtime at work is not long enough for me to give every film the treatment I gave Supers-man I-IV. I don't have the interest in fixing something I absolutely did not like. And not only me, but many other people as well.

I absolutely have no problem with some fun discussion like I got on the Superman IV write-up. I really enjoyed that. I don't enjoy discussion that continues in these threads after I say:

scarletspeed7 posted...
I mean, I'm clearly not a fan and I had to do a write-up because it was nominated.


"Yeah, but you should give the movie respect! Despite no motivation to write up a movie you don't like at all, you must somehow put it on equal footing with a franchise where you have a lot to say."

The discussion on Me No Likey the Movie should have ended a while ago. I can't give a shit about every film that gets listed here. In fact, as opposed to Howard the Duck, I said, "We probably have to embrace the B-movie nature of this film because it won't work to change it." Which, you know, was in the write-up. Then I gave a couple quick recasts and a new exec producer because I was trying to move on. Unless you are really offended that I removed Hoagy Carmichael or whatever her name was from April O'Neil.

I don't like the movie, man. And I gave it an equal amount of respect as my favorite movies on this list because I included it.

There are like 90 films that will get - in my estimation - nice, detailed write-ups. This is not one of them.
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Eddv
10/11/18 7:32:30 PM
135
Hoagy is a funny name.
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Lopen
10/11/18 7:39:17 PM
136
I don't want you to fix it. I want you to say "this franchise isn't my cup of tea at all, and I hardly remember what this movie does or doesn't do well and I don't care to fix it" rather than comparing it to Howard the goddamn Duck. There are probably like 4 people on Earth who would compare it to Howard the Duck.

Like for all the talk of missing the point you've thoroughly missed mine, despite repeating it many times. I don't actually care if you like the movie or not. Like my problem is not the fact that you dismissed it but rather the attitude you had while doing so. That's all.
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scarletspeed7
10/11/18 7:53:24 PM
137
Batman Returns (1992)
Nominated by: hylian

As much as Tim Burton gets right in a movie, he also seems to get wrong when he indulges his excesses. For Batman Returns, I want to reel him in just a little bit and offer a different plotline a little more grounded in the gritty crimeworld of Gotham's underbelly.

First and foremost, I think the casting is tremendous. For 1992, the major roles are all played by the best available talent in Hollywood. I won't even touch it. What I will do is rename Christopher Walken's character Max Schreck, turning him into Sal Maroni, tying him into comic book continuity a little more closely. I want to make minor changes throughout the plot from this point forward, all in an effort to de-Burtonize the film a little bit, hopefully in an effort to remove the excess campiness that plagues the later films in the series. I do want that wicked sense of whimsy that Burton has, but it needs to be anchored to a story about humans, and that's where the series eventually veers off course.

We'll open with young Oswald Cobblepot being abused by his father after a trip to the zoo. Instead of being dumped in a penguin exhibit, he runs away from home and finds himself in the sewers, where he crawls into the zoo. He takes shelter in the Penguin exhibit, but it certainly doesn't look like a baby is being raised by penguins. He sought them ought. In a jump to the future, we see Walken's Maroni wheeling and dealing his way through the Gotham city council, using coercion and blackmail to climb into his own council seat. Batman, Gordon, and Harvey Dent (reprised by Billy Dee Williams) begin to work against this, attempting to nail Maroni to any of his notorious crimes; they put a tail on Maroni, and this prevents him from killing his opponent on the day of a city council race. Maroni's secretary, Selina Kyle, is convinced by a small, stunted man to give said man a meeting with Maroni. This man offers to kill Maroni's opponent, Tucker Cobblepot. In exchange, Maroni has to assist the small man in his bid for an upcoming mayoral election. Tucker Cobblepot is then murdered by the small man who reveals himself to be his long abandoned son, Oswald.

Selina Kyle puts two and two together after Oswald steps forward and claims himself as the last surviving heir to the Cobblepot Family fortune. Furthermore, a very unlikely coincidence occurs when Maroni is seemingly saved by Cobblepot from a bullet delivered by a "random street thug". Cobblepot dispatches this thug on the steps of the city hall, and it becomes a major news story. Soon after, Cobblepot publicly acknowledges his bid for mayor. Selina Kyle confronts her boss, Sal Maroni, about the string of incidences she puts together, and he pushes her out of a window, "killing" her.

Batman and Harvey Dent both attempt to crash a gala hosted by Cobblepot to raise support for his campaign weeks later, and Wayne meets Kyle. There's some definite chemistry there. In reality though, all three of them are at the gala separately to dig up dirt on Maroni's diminutive ally. First, Dent charms his way past a security guard and sneaks into Penguin's private quarters. Kyle and Wayne sneak into their respective restrooms to don their night attire and do the same. What results is Catwoman and Batman running into each other with awkward suspicion mixed with more chemistry, and Harvey Dent finding a small piece of paper that seems to link Maroni and Cobblepot.

From here, Dent relays his information to Batman and Gordon on a GCPD rooftop. Over the next week or so, Selina Kyle and Bruce Wayne grow closer, and we have one major scene where Cobblepot and Maroni's son play together and there's clearly some affection Cobblepot has for the young boy. Catwoman also finds Batman on the GCPD rooftop and attempts to enlist him into murdering Maroni; he warns her not to even consider such a prospect and she blows him off.
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scarletspeed7
10/11/18 7:53:35 PM
138
Batman goes to pay a visit to Maroni that same evening. Catwoman, too, makes the same visit and once again the two run into one another. This time, however, Catwoman's motive is to simply out-and-out kill Maroni; however, his young son is there as well. Batman refuses to let her, and she turns on him. Maroni and his son escape in the offing, now with the knowledge that both Cobblepot and he are under investigation. Batman finds in and amongst the chaos at Maroni's home a tape recorded phone message declaring Cobblepot's involvement in Maroni's election.

With the vote for mayor only two days away, Dent is able to play the incriminating message on primetime television, and the city rebels against voting for Cobblepot. Catwoman tracks Maroni to the sewers, but is caught by Penguin and Maroni's minions. In response, Maroni grows insanely paranoid and violent, even slapping his son and calling him an idiot when his son attempts to give a beaten and broken Catwoman some water.

Penguin, witnessing abuse similar to what he experienced as a child, immediately goes off of his rocker and begins to ramble about killing the fathers of Gotham. We get the same Burtonesque plan involving penguin bombs from the original movie, and eventually we reach the same climax of the movie. Penguin seemingly falls to his death in toxic waste, and Maroni is eventually electrocuted by Catwoman after she is shot. Both appear to die, but when Batman is distracted for a moment, Selina's remains are gone. Again, the rest of the movie is playing out the same for the most part. Maroni, however, isn't dead but simply stunned, and Gordon, Dent and Batman stand on the rooftop of the GCPD and take stock of things. Maroni is destined for trial, and an entire crime syndicate will soon fall to its knees. Dent leaves, and Batman expresses regret for the death of Catwoman, who he considers a victim of the crime he has been trying so desperately to stop. Gordon says that, when she put on the mask, she stopped being a victim. "Wouldn't you agree?" he tells Batman, as he steps inside. And then there's that little reveal that Catwoman is still alive, roll credits, boom.

I feel like tonally this plot opens up a lot of space to explore how victims deal with abuse, whether it's the Penguin living with the abuse from his father, or the timid Selina Kyle being crushed under the minor abuses she faces daily and then being transformed by a major abuse into someone consumed by it. Furthermore, there's an opportunity for Batman to say, "This isn't how we do things," championing Harvey Dent's aggressive but still ethical attitudes in comparison to Selina Kyle's selfish revenge.

I know it's a little bit scattered, but for a 15 minute brainstorm, I think it actually is a great place to start.
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"It is too easy being monsters. Let us try to be human." ~Victor Frankenstein, Penny Dreadful
ClyTheCool
10/11/18 8:07:24 PM
139
scarletspeed7 posted...
I think you may not be familiar with what barking up the wrong tree looks like:

Lopen posted...
I'm not saying everyone should necessarily like it, just that it deserves some amount of respect. Audience score of 80% combined with a tomato score that isn't total garbage is probably a sign that there's something the movie is doing right in there. I'd sooner trust a high audience score and a poor tomatometer than the reverse, in any case.


I clearly was pointing out that not everyone shares your sentiment, namely me, someone who actually is stuck doing lame-ass write-ups for Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. I kept it short and sweet because people like you - sorry - people who are exactly you - always feel the need to crusade stupidly for people to give a shit about something about which they don't give a shit. There are 100 movies here, and my downtime at work is not long enough for me to give every film the treatment I gave Supers-man I-IV. I don't have the interest in fixing something I absolutely did not like. And not only me, but many other people as well.

I absolutely have no problem with some fun discussion like I got on the Superman IV write-up. I really enjoyed that. I don't enjoy discussion that continues in these threads after I say:

scarletspeed7 posted...
I mean, I'm clearly not a fan and I had to do a write-up because it was nominated.


"Yeah, but you should give the movie respect! Despite no motivation to write up a movie you don't like at all, you must somehow put it on equal footing with a franchise where you have a lot to say."

The discussion on Me No Likey the Movie should have ended a while ago. I can't give a shit about every film that gets listed here. In fact, as opposed to Howard the Duck, I said, "We probably have to embrace the B-movie nature of this film because it won't work to change it." Which, you know, was in the write-up. Then I gave a couple quick recasts and a new exec producer because I was trying to move on. Unless you are really offended that I removed Hoagy Carmichael or whatever her name was from April O'Neil.

I don't like the movie, man. And I gave it an equal amount of respect as my favorite movies on this list because I included it.

There are like 90 films that will get - in my estimation - nice, detailed write-ups. This is not one of them.


The dark side of scarlet
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Cly at Work
So more power to North Korea for this one. Good show. - MWC
Eddv
10/11/18 8:24:45 PM
140
Yeah boy this one is all over the place. my biggest issue is I just sort of hate Catwoman and her entire role of this movie has always been my least favorite part of it.

I also think recasting Billy Dee for a bit part is a bit odd unless youre planning to keep him in that role over Tommy Lee Jones as part of your attempt to 'fix' Batman Forever, which I have a Lopen-ish amount of bullish favor for and would obviously disagree with.

For me a part of the charm of the Burton/Schumacher films is that theyre only lightly connected to one another I don't know that it needs the extraligamenture you're trying to give it.

What I do like is that you have taken what was intended to be a sort of nightmarish/dreamy romp and turned it into a movie about child abuse which IS a very Burton thing to do and I think he would have handled well.
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scarletspeed7
10/11/18 8:29:20 PM
141
I'm not a huge Catwoman fan, but I don't think there's a role for her that isn't tied to the abuse concept the way I did it. That's fair though.

Eddv posted...
I also think recasting Billy Dee for a bit part is a bit odd unless youre planning to keep him in that role over Tommy Lee Jones as part of your attempt to 'fix' Batman Forever, which I have a Lopen-ish amount of bullish favor for and would obviously disagree with.

For me a part of the charm of the Burton/Schumacher films is that theyre only lightly connected to one another I don't know that it needs the extraligamenture you're trying to give it.

I think it's self-contained still. I don't think it's going to be serialized to the point that you HAVE to watch each film in order. I just want to give it a little bit of continuity so that you care a little bit more about a character in a future film. Emotional stakes are hard to come by in this series.
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"It is too easy being monsters. Let us try to be human." ~Victor Frankenstein, Penny Dreadful
Lopen
10/11/18 8:41:00 PM
142
I think the meat of the fixing Batman Returns needs is overhauling Penguin's role to be way less stupid. His whole character arc from his origin story to running for office is just too ridiculous for me.

Catwoman's origin story also ideally doesn't involve her being pushed off a building and killed (I assume you don't have her literally fall flat backed like 20 stories and survive despite your fix still including her thought to be dead, right?)

You hit those and added some cool stuff like Walken being named Maroni which yeah is a nice touch (though I thought the Nolan Maroni was quite good too and now I'm envisioning Walken in that role) so I'm good with the changes you made even if maybe you shotgunned my actual grief with the movie a bit
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No problem!
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scarletspeed7
10/11/18 8:49:03 PM
143
Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of that plotline originally. I decided to stick with the Penguin mayoral run because I liked it coming out of the Gotham TV show, and I feel like making it a little more down-to-Earth might help.

As for Catwoman, I don't want her thought dead by the audience, only Maroni, so you're definitely right. I do think the trauma is significant in the symbolic transformation so I wouldn't necessarily do it the same way. It's one of those detailed sequences I'd spend more time crafting.

EDIT: Oh and yeah, I love Eric Roberts as Maroni.
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"It is too easy being monsters. Let us try to be human." ~Victor Frankenstein, Penny Dreadful
Lopen
10/11/18 9:27:03 PM
144
Yeah Penguin running for office isn't fundamentally broken as an idea if you reel in the ridiculousness of his penguinness a bit and he's not literally raised by Penguins and eating raw fish and biting noses off
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No problem!
This is a cute and pop genocide of love!
scarletspeed7
10/12/18 12:29:45 PM
145
There is a fine line between bad Burton and good Burton.
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"It is too easy being monsters. Let us try to be human." ~Victor Frankenstein, Penny Dreadful
Anagram
10/12/18 12:30:57 PM
146
I'm not even sure that's true. I think Burton's early work is better than his later work, but the real problem is that people just got tired of his style because style is all it has. That and Johnny Depp.
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scarletspeed7
10/12/18 12:38:13 PM
147
Well, we're talking about an earlier film that features a lot of questionable portrayals of famous characters, and that's where the idea of Bad Burton comes in.
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"It is too easy being monsters. Let us try to be human." ~Victor Frankenstein, Penny Dreadful
scarletspeed7
10/12/18 1:05:06 PM
148
Batman: Mask of the Phantasm (1993)
Nominated by: GavsEvans

This film presented a conundrum to me. After all, what did Mask of the Phantasm actually do wrong? Was there an issue with the script, the voice acting, the animation? Absolutely not. In fact, Mask of the Phantasm hews extremely closely to the upon which it is based, and much like the 1966 Batman, I feel that it would be wrong of me to overhaul the movie too much due to its origins as a show first. And besides, the real issue here was a complete lack of marketing and a hook to convince people to take their children to the film.

So, in lieu of the normal repair work I've been doing on these films, I think the best possible fix is to simply devote a bigger amount of cash to advertisement. The sad fact is that so many people are simply unaware of this Batman: The Animated Series spin-off, and awareness alone would increase this from a $10 million dollar sleeper to an $80 million dollar profit generator. Demonstrating to people that this is different from other Batman films of the time, something special, would really have done wonders to bring this film to the level of a true, unmitigated success.

But I imagine this was nominated for a particular reason outside of the simple fix I've mentioned, so I'll talk about why I think there's very little you can do to make this film better. The script is extremely tight, and the voice acting is excellent. It captures both the tone of the comic Batman and some of the Burton Batman as well, and the music is excellent. Ultimately, the only real thing that could be improved upon is providing a bigger budget for more detailed frame-by-frame animation. That's the only other option available. And sure, that would make this prettier to some extent, but you'd have to really, actively know what you're doing as the director of animation on this project to take a TV show and keep the tone of the show while changing how the show does its weekly shot-by-shot work. And, honestly, I think that's a mistake.

You're only other option here is to turn this into a live-action film, and then it becomes a matter of whether you want to bring in your previous Joker and Batman, etc., to a movie that feels like an aberration to both the film series and the cartoon of the time. Sure, you could recast Nicholson with Hamill, but I think Hamill's voice is not enough to create an engaging live-action Joker, and Hamill himself will likely be criticized right out of the gate for being different from Nicholson. It's a double-edged sword. And with the hype for the upcoming Spider-Man animated film just a year out from a new live-action film, I don't think filmgoers are too concerned with the medium of the film necessarily. So, the safest bet in any event is to push the marketing hard on this film. Critical reviews were extremely positive for Mask of the Phantasm, and, to me, that says enough about the film itself.
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"It is too easy being monsters. Let us try to be human." ~Victor Frankenstein, Penny Dreadful
BetrayedTangy
10/12/18 1:08:15 PM
149
Will we still get to see Danny Devito biting off someone's nose?
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scarletspeed7
10/12/18 1:09:20 PM
150
Absolutely not.
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"It is too easy being monsters. Let us try to be human." ~Victor Frankenstein, Penny Dreadful
BetrayedTangy
10/12/18 1:26:38 PM
151
Haha that's immediately what I think of when it comes to Batman Returns. I do think that taking out a lot of the crazy Burtonisms will help the movie and the Batman franchise as a whole.

As for Mask of the Phantasm I would make the Phantasm reveal a lot less obvious, I know it's a kids film, but theres pne clear suspect the whole time. I think a couple of red herrings could make this one even better
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