Current Events > So I had an interesting conversation regarding the #MeToo movement.

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nicklebro
10/08/18 5:48:12 PM
#1:


There is of course a massive backlash of men who are claiming they're the victims because anyone can accuse them at any time and ruin their life. Well two guys who dealt with multiple accuasations are a (well two actually) Supreme Court Judge(s) and the President. So I think that's disingenuous. But for the guys that a actually agree with Trump and the like, of a woman has truly been raped, but she didn't immediately report it, what do you suggest those women do, knowing that they dont have any evidence other than their own traumatic memories? Are they right to come forward, even if it's years after the fact and they know that justice will almost assuredly not be served? And that like in the cases of Dr. Ford, they have to deal with rape and death threats that were serious enough for her to not stay at home? What do you think they should do?

And do you think we should come up with some sort of solution for this problem of so many rapists going free?
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Nomadic View
10/08/18 5:55:56 PM
#2:


I think they should come forward and report it as soon as possible. The longer you wait the less likely you are going to be able to prove it happened. Memories fade, videos are lost or overridden, witnesses die or otherwise cannot be located, and DNA is destroyed.

A statute of limitations could encourage women to come forward sooner, but it also carries the double edge sword of punishing victims that simply wait too long for a variety of reasons.
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nicklebro
10/08/18 5:59:00 PM
#3:


Nomadic View posted...
I think they should come forward and report it as soon as possible. The longer you wait the less likely you are going to be able to prove it happened. Memories fade, videos are lost or overridden, witnesses die or otherwise cannot be located, and DNA is destroyed.

A statute of limitations could encourage women to come forward sooner, but it also carries the double edge sword of punishing victims that simply wait too long for a variety of reasons.

I don't see how a statute of limitations would make a difference when that doesn't address the actual reasons women don't report rapes.

And I'm asking you what a woman should do if it's 30 years after the fact?
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Houston
10/08/18 6:01:50 PM
#4:


nicklebro posted...
what a woman should do if it's 30 years after the fact?


Let it go unless you have evidence or people who can corroborate your story.

30 years is too long to say something happened but you dont know where or when or how you got there.
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Damn_Underscore
10/08/18 6:05:09 PM
#5:


If it happened a long time ago, then unless there is somehow still evidence or at least corroborating witnesses then the person who did it will go unpunished. The only way for that person to be punished is in the afterlife if there is one. And we don't know if the person who did it is honestly sorry even though he is too afraid to actually admit he did it. It's no longer for humans to decide. There's a reason modern American society has a rule of "innocent until proven guilty." Society would fall apart without it.
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Twin3Turbo
10/08/18 6:09:10 PM
#6:


Nomadic View posted...
The longer you wait the less likely you are going to be able to prove it happened

The problem with many rape accusations and "evidence" is that there is always some sort of mitigating factor the other side can throw in there. It was consensual, she liked it rough, etc. It will almost always turn into a "he said she said" thing.

Law and Order of all shows believe it or not actually had a very good episode about this very subject. Every bit of evidence that was brought forward was fought with those types of arguments. At the end of the episode, the jury is about to give the verdict but the show ends without showing you whether the accused was found guilty or not.
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nemu
10/08/18 6:10:13 PM
#7:


It can be helpful in the case of "here is my story, hope this encourages other people to bring forward their stories and then get evidence for a conviction." What's not helpful is "here are uncorroborated he-said, she said stories, let's let the court of public opinion throw the book at them."
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nicklebro
10/08/18 6:11:27 PM
#8:


Houston posted...
nicklebro posted...
what a woman should do if it's 30 years after the fact?


Let it go unless you have evidence or people who can corroborate your story.

30 years is too long to say something happened but you dont know where or when or how you got there.

Ford knew where she was and approximately when it was, how she got there is irrelevant.

But really? Just let it go? Don't even make the accusation that you know to be true? Why is that the best course of action?
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Vol2tex
10/08/18 6:11:29 PM
#9:


Twin3Turbo posted...
Nomadic View posted...
The longer you wait the less likely you are going to be able to prove it happened

The problem with many rape accusations and "evidence" is that there is always some sort of mitigating factor the other side can throw in there. It was consensual, she liked it rough, etc. It will almost always turn into a "he said she said" thing.

Law and Order of all shows believe it or not actually had a very good episode about this very subject. Every bit of evidence that was brought forward was fought with those types of arguments. At the end of the episode, the jury is about to give the verdict but the show ends without showing you whether the accused was found guilty or not.


"We find the defendent..."
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Damn_Underscore
10/08/18 6:13:52 PM
#10:


The possibility of finding someone not guilty who is actually guilty is not a reason to accuse everyone of being guilty.
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nicklebro
10/08/18 6:17:30 PM
#11:


Damn_Underscore posted...
If it happened a long time ago, then unless there is somehow still evidence or at least corroborating witnesses then the person who did it will go unpunished. The only way for that person to be punished is in the afterlife if there is one. And we don't know if the person who did it is honestly sorry even though he is too afraid to actually admit he did it. It's no longer for humans to decide. There's a reason modern American society has a rule of "innocent until proven guilty." Society would fall apart without it.

American society doesn't have that rule tho, American courts do. It's ok to form an opinion off of inconclusive evidence, just don't go allowing those opinions to result in criminal punishments.
Twin3Turbo posted...

The problem with many rape accusations and "evidence" is that there is always some sort of mitigating factor the other side can throw in there. It was consensual, she liked it rough, etc. It will almost always turn into a "he said she said" thing.

This along with the fact that many rapes go unreported has me thinking we need to start fresh with how Americans report a rape. Idk how yet, but we can just treat it as the exact same as every other crime.

nemu posted...
It can be helpful in the case of "here is my story, hope this encourages other people to bring forward their stories and then get evidence for a conviction." What's not helpful is "here are uncorroborated he-said, she said stories, let's let the court of public opinion throw the book at them."

Depends what you mean by "throw the book at them". Obviously no criminal punishments tho.
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nicklebro
10/08/18 6:19:20 PM
#12:


Damn_Underscore posted...
The possibility of finding someone not guilty who is actually guilty is not a reason to accuse everyone of being guilty.

Good thing no one's pushing for that. I know I'd rather see 10 guilty men go free than one innocent man behind bars.
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monkmith
10/08/18 6:20:46 PM
#13:


Houston posted...
nicklebro posted...
what a woman should do if it's 30 years after the fact?


Let it go unless you have evidence or people who can corroborate your story.

30 years is too long to say something happened but you dont know where or when or how you got there.

i wonder, would you tell your mother that? your girlfriend? your daughter?
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Damn_Underscore
10/08/18 6:42:19 PM
#14:


nicklebro posted...
Damn_Underscore posted...
If it happened a long time ago, then unless there is somehow still evidence or at least corroborating witnesses then the person who did it will go unpunished. The only way for that person to be punished is in the afterlife if there is one. And we don't know if the person who did it is honestly sorry even though he is too afraid to actually admit he did it. It's no longer for humans to decide. There's a reason modern American society has a rule of "innocent until proven guilty." Society would fall apart without it.

American society doesn't have that rule tho, American courts do. It's ok to form an opinion off of inconclusive evidence, just don't go allowing those opinions to result in criminal punishments.


It's a societal rule. It's something that our society is built on and keeps our society working.
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nicklebro
10/08/18 6:44:57 PM
#15:


Damn_Underscore posted...

It's a societal rule. It's something that our society is built on and keeps our society working.

Except it only applies in courts of law. In the court of public opinion anything goes. Your mom doesn't need to prove you're lying when she can just tell cuz she made you.

This rule does not apply outside of the courts at all.
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FightingFefnir
10/08/18 6:48:52 PM
#16:


This wouldn't be a problem if the had a higher standard of proof and harsher sentences for accusations that are proven false.
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Damn_Underscore
10/08/18 6:56:36 PM
#17:


The court of public opinion is bull****

Any power it has is literally mob rule
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DarkTransient
10/08/18 7:05:32 PM
#18:


The left: "It's fine to destroy someone's life over an accusation that on the balance of probabilities is likely false, but fuck anyone who thinks criminals who are proven guilty should be given anything resembling a real sentence!"
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nicklebro
10/08/18 7:10:36 PM
#19:


Damn_Underscore posted...
The court of public opinion is bull****

Any power it has is literally mob rule

You may not like it,. It it's still there.

DarkTransient posted...
The left: "It's fine to destroy someone's life over an accusation that on the balance of probabilities is likely false, but fuck anyone who thinks criminals who are proven guilty should be given anything resembling a real sentence!"

Who's life was destroyed that liberals are condoning?
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Damn_Underscore
10/08/18 7:14:39 PM
#20:


Thankfully people are able to ignore the court of public opinion.

If you don't, you are part of the problem.
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Antifar
10/08/18 7:16:19 PM
#21:


I'm sure everybody defending Kavanaugh is also a consistent defender of OJ and Casey Anthony
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Twin3Turbo
10/08/18 7:20:53 PM
#22:


nicklebro posted...
This rule does not apply outside of the courts at all.

And for the record, it never has. I dont know why people act like this is new. People have always made public accusations like this that society would judge others on. Its just that this many people coming out at once specifically about rape/sexual misconduct is new. Perhaps instead of thinking all these women are lying or looking for attention, perhaps we should consider that maybe just maybe this stuff happens a lot more than we would like to think.
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Nomadic View
10/08/18 7:33:41 PM
#23:


Twin3Turbo posted...
Nomadic View posted...
The longer you wait the less likely you are going to be able to prove it happened

The problem with many rape accusations and "evidence" is that there is always some sort of mitigating factor the other side can throw in there. It was consensual, she liked it rough, etc. It will almost always turn into a "he said she said" thing.

Law and Order of all shows believe it or not actually had a very good episode about this very subject. Every bit of evidence that was brought forward was fought with those types of arguments. At the end of the episode, the jury is about to give the verdict but the show ends without showing you whether the accused was found guilty or not.


So? Whats wrong with mitigating factors if theyre true?
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Damn_Underscore
10/08/18 8:02:34 PM
#24:


Antifar posted...
I'm sure everybody defending Kavanaugh is also a consistent defender of OJ and Casey Anthony


With OJ, regardless of whether he did it or not he paid for it in multiple ways. I don't know why everyone hates him.

With Casey Anthony, no one knows what actually happened besides Casey Anthony herself. I'm not a Casey Anthony fan, but I'll go by the court decision.
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Twin3Turbo
10/08/18 8:58:01 PM
#25:


Nomadic View posted...
Twin3Turbo posted...
Nomadic View posted...
The longer you wait the less likely you are going to be able to prove it happened

The problem with many rape accusations and "evidence" is that there is always some sort of mitigating factor the other side can throw in there. It was consensual, she liked it rough, etc. It will almost always turn into a "he said she said" thing.

Law and Order of all shows believe it or not actually had a very good episode about this very subject. Every bit of evidence that was brought forward was fought with those types of arguments. At the end of the episode, the jury is about to give the verdict but the show ends without showing you whether the accused was found guilty or not.


So? Whats wrong with mitigating factors if theyre true?

Why do you assume they are true?
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Nomadic View
10/08/18 9:11:30 PM
#26:


Twin3Turbo posted...
Nomadic View posted...
Twin3Turbo posted...
Nomadic View posted...
The longer you wait the less likely you are going to be able to prove it happened

The problem with many rape accusations and "evidence" is that there is always some sort of mitigating factor the other side can throw in there. It was consensual, she liked it rough, etc. It will almost always turn into a "he said she said" thing.

Law and Order of all shows believe it or not actually had a very good episode about this very subject. Every bit of evidence that was brought forward was fought with those types of arguments. At the end of the episode, the jury is about to give the verdict but the show ends without showing you whether the accused was found guilty or not.


So? Whats wrong with mitigating factors if theyre true?

Why do you assume they are true?


What? Were talking about an objective rule. There are no facts.

What is wrong with mitigating evidence?
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Twin3Turbo
10/08/18 9:22:40 PM
#27:


Nomadic View posted...
Twin3Turbo posted...
Nomadic View posted...
Twin3Turbo posted...
Nomadic View posted...
The longer you wait the less likely you are going to be able to prove it happened

The problem with many rape accusations and "evidence" is that there is always some sort of mitigating factor the other side can throw in there. It was consensual, she liked it rough, etc. It will almost always turn into a "he said she said" thing.

Law and Order of all shows believe it or not actually had a very good episode about this very subject. Every bit of evidence that was brought forward was fought with those types of arguments. At the end of the episode, the jury is about to give the verdict but the show ends without showing you whether the accused was found guilty or not.


So? Whats wrong with mitigating factors if theyre true?

Why do you assume they are true?


What? Were talking about an objective rule. There are no facts.

What is wrong with mitigating evidence?

I might have used the wrong term then.

What I meant was opposing arguments.

If the prosecution says " here is evidence, they found his semen on her" and the defense says "it was consensual", nothing about that defense is objective. That's what I meant.
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httpgrandmaster
10/08/18 9:27:17 PM
#28:


nicklebro posted...
Damn_Underscore posted...
The possibility of finding someone not guilty who is actually guilty is not a reason to accuse everyone of being guilty.

Good thing no one's pushing for that. I know I'd rather see 10 guilty men go free than one innocent man behind bars.


Imo this right here is the correct answer.

Because proving rape after years have passed is virtually impossible, we have to accept the cruel but necessary reality that it's better not to imprison an innocent person and to let someone get away with it. Otherwise we run the risk of imprisoning innocent people on the basis of mere accusations. Rape victims should be encouraged to come forward right away, and guaranteed resources/protection to do so. But anything more than that is not achievable, I'm afraid.
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Nomadic View
10/08/18 9:27:26 PM
#29:


The criminal standard is beyond a reasonable doubt. The defense can present any theory under the sun for why something looks a certain way. The jury isnt obligated to believe it.
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Twin3Turbo
10/08/18 9:33:36 PM
#30:


Nomadic View posted...
The criminal standard is beyond a reasonable doubt. The defense can present any theory under the sun for why something looks a certain way. The jury isnt obligated to believe it.

As it should be...that doesn't stop it from basically being a he said she said battle though. If they want to take other things into consideration, that's to be expected but generally the only way a conviction is going to stick is if there is some other compelling reason to believe the prosecutions version of events. And it's generally pretty difficult to do unless

1. The defense admits it
2. There is video evidence of the assault

Most physical evidence can be explained away.
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GreatEvilEmpire
10/08/18 9:39:34 PM
#31:


httpgrandmaster posted...
Because proving rape after years have passed is virtually impossible, we have to accept the cruel but necessary reality that it's better not to imprison an innocent person and to let someone get away with it. Otherwise we run the risk of imprisoning innocent people on the basis of mere accusations. Rape victims should be encouraged to come forward right away, and guaranteed resources/protection to do so. But anything more than that is not achievable, I'm afraid.


The problem is that feminists would gladly trade an innocent man's life if they can get 5 other men behind bars and that's not right. And one day, that innocent man could be their own brother, father... their own son and they're going to wake up to the monster they created.

There's an absolute-type mentality where it's us against them, instead of us against the rapists. I don't think anyone condones rape, but I've seen plenty of people condone the conviction of an innocent man... like it's okay because he's a man, and he represents men.

It's never okay to sexually assault someone, and there are different degrees of assault with some more severe than others. And it's definitely not okay to publicly convict a man just because he was accused of something, caused we've seen many examples of women falsely accusing men of doing something they didn't do.
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Nomadic View
10/08/18 9:41:20 PM
#32:


Twin3Turbo posted...
Nomadic View posted...
The criminal standard is beyond a reasonable doubt. The defense can present any theory under the sun for why something looks a certain way. The jury isnt obligated to believe it.

As it should be...that doesn't stop it from basically being a he said she said battle though. If they want to take other things into consideration, that's to be expected but generally the only way a conviction is going to stick is if there is some other compelling reason to believe the prosecutions version of events. And it's generally pretty difficult to do unless

1. The defense admits it
2. There is video evidence of the assault

Most physical evidence can be explained away.


It seems like youre arguing that this is a bad thing. Maybe Im just not understanding you.
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Twin3Turbo
10/08/18 11:11:07 PM
#33:


Nomadic View posted...
Twin3Turbo posted...
Nomadic View posted...
The criminal standard is beyond a reasonable doubt. The defense can present any theory under the sun for why something looks a certain way. The jury isnt obligated to believe it.

As it should be...that doesn't stop it from basically being a he said she said battle though. If they want to take other things into consideration, that's to be expected but generally the only way a conviction is going to stick is if there is some other compelling reason to believe the prosecutions version of events. And it's generally pretty difficult to do unless

1. The defense admits it
2. There is video evidence of the assault

Most physical evidence can be explained away.


It seems like youre arguing that this is a bad thing. Maybe Im just not understanding you.

Thats not what Im arguing at all
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