Poll of the Day > I made this topic before,but I forgot: Explain how working to live isn't slavery

(+) Yeah! (+)

Now, it's an absurdistism... obviously the modern workplace environment and work culture isn't slavery...

So why is it whenever someone mentions they can't quit their job because they can't live without it they say that's NOT slavery? ... if you don't work, you die... that's slavery... or serfdom.. either or.
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it isnt slavery for a variety of reasons.

Nobody is forcing them to work, they get paid, and usually nobody is threatening for them to stay there.

argonautweakend posted...

it isnt slavery for a variety of reasons.

Nobody is forcing them to work, they get paid, and usually nobody is threatening for them to stay there.

Yes, life is forcing them to work, and the threat of death is keeping them there
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So, I guess the act of eating and drinking would be slavery, then?
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You dont HAVE to work to live, i mean there are plenty of hobos who get by ok
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Don't get me started.
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Now, it's possible that this is just the result of the Protestant work ethic... that they think they're bad people if they quit an unsafe or unfair job
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if you don't work you die

You can die while working.
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This topic reminds me of that episode of Rick and Morty where the former's spaceship battery dies.
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You can live, and fairly well in the US at least, working only 20 hours a week or so......and not even at a hard job, literally just standing around and taking orders etc.

Now, yes, you can't do that easily with kids (although there are tons of programs to help with that, and you'll get things like foodstamps and free child care if you apply for it), but even so, that is your choice and responsibility to have children in the first place.

It's also true that it is more expensive to live some places then others, so yes, in some areas you have to work almost full time just to get by with the bare neccesities (if you include a roof over you head in them).

Even so that is still not slavery, or even serfdom, nobody can force you to do things, nobody owns your body, nobody can beat you if you do things wrong and nobody can starve you even after you have worked 12 hour + days.

Even serfs often lived very harsh lives (in some cases worse then slaves as they had no inherant value).

People in the US at least can live lives of luxory and many do, without working AT ALL. Single mothers especially have done so for decades in the past at least, living off the support that is supposed to be for their children.

Renting a room, almost anywhere, or sharing an apartment with friends, can still be extremely cheap. You can do so even in Brooklyn NY if you want with less then $800 a month total expenses (including food/transportation/rent etc).

So no, it's not slavery, not even close.
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wolfy42 posted...

So no, it's not slavery, not even close.

I'm talking about a very specific subset of workers ,not all workers. The kind who refuse to quit abusive jobs because they feel they have no choice
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Lokarin posted...

wolfy42 posted...

So no, it's not slavery, not even close.

I'm talking about a very specific subset of workers ,not all workers. The kind who refuse to quit abusive jobs because they feel they have no choice

Thing is they do have a choice whether they admit it or not.

When the employers start chasing you down and beating the shit out of you for trying to leave then it'll be slavery.
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mooreandrew58 posted...

Lokarin posted...

wolfy42 posted...

So no, it's not slavery, not even close.

I'm talking about a very specific subset of workers ,not all workers. The kind who refuse to quit abusive jobs because they feel they have no choice

Thing is they do have a choice whether they admit it or not.

When the employers start chasing you down and beating the shit out of you for trying to leave then it'll be slavery.

And that's the topic answered right there.

It doesn't matter what someone feels or believes when it isn't true...

I feel really terrible having to kill a bug but no matter how much it feels like abuse to another creature, it's not really in most people's eyes.
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Because it's not slavery at all, it's just living. At no point in history have humans collectively ever been able to exist without engaging in some kind of labor to sustain themselves. And they voluntarily engage in the system to the benefit of themselves. In no way, shape, or form does any of it resemble slavery and I'm not sure why you're so hung up on everything being slavery. It's a fucking weird gimmick.

Lokarin posted...

So why is it whenever someone mentions they can't quit their job because they can't live without it they say that's NOT slavery? ... if you don't work, you die... that's slavery... or serfdom.. either or.

No, it's not serfdom either because workers aren't bound to their land. If they want to move, they can do so. Historically, the system of serfdom was similar to slavery with the sole exception of serfs being transferred with the land itself rather than being bought/sold individually.

In slavery and serfdom, you had involuntary servitude. The same is true of communist nations that still have forced labor practices. However, for most of the world people *choose* their employers rather than have their employers conscript them against their will either by purchase or birth.
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Zeus posted...

In slavery and serfdom, you had involuntary servitude. The same is true of communist nations that still have forced labor practices. However, for most of the world people *choose* their employers rather than have their employers conscript them against their will either by purchase or birth.

That's a pretty poor definition. People do serve involuntarily, they wouldn't be employed if it were something they could opt out of. They also wouldn't stop being a slave just because they can choose their master, they still serve without want.

Mind you, it's still not slavery as they aren't owned by anybody, they still have legal individual rights.
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This is a good question. Maybe you could ask this on r/askphilosophy or somewhere like that.

Initially I agreed that it does constitute slavery. Yet looking at a popular definition "a condition of having to work very hard without proper remuneration or appreciation" perhaps working to live does not constitute slavery if, more often than not, workers across the globe could be said to be 'properly' remunerated for their efforts.
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Lokarin posted...

Yes, life is forcing them to work, and the threat of death is keeping them there

You don't have to work if you don't mind living in the wild and hunting/scavenging for food.

As others have said, no one is forcing them to hold those jobs - they are free to leave and find employment elsewhere.
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darkknight109 posted...

You don't have to work if you don't mind living in the wild and hunting/scavenging for food.

You mean "the wild" which is under government jusidiction? The same one which requires hunting licenses? The ones that make sleeping rough illegal?
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Look, we may have slavery here eventually, and in some cases, it's getting close. I have heard horror stories and there was like a special on tv or something, about the working conditions at amazon warehouses. From what I heard from a friend who worked at one (through a temp agency briefly) some of it is true. They don't want you talking to other employees, monitor you constantly and listen to all conversations, you have almost no time to use the restroom etc as you have to clock out where you work, then walk to the area for breaks, and back, which takes up most of your break etc.

Now, if you want slavery, China had it, and probably still does (doubt it's changed). Not only do/did they have people work 12-18 hours a day in factories, but they would alternate who slept in a bunk (3 people to a bed), with 8 hours off per person. They made just enough to survive on from what I remember.

If you slacked off, got in trouble etc, you got sent to prison where they would make you....yup work, nonstop, same kinda situation. Honestly doesn't sound like a good place to live, and i t can't be everywhere...but that.....is wage slavery.

We do in some cases have something approaching that with people here illegally being basically blackmailed into working long hours for very little money, not that I have seen this myself, but I have heard about it.

But no, working even at a fast food place like Mc Donalds and having no money left over at the end of the month? That is not slavery or even close. Many people take their rights and privledges for granted in this country, and some others do not even know about them, or get depressed or stuck in a horrid situation and think there is no way out. There is.

I keep telling people if they don't like their job, work towards finding a better one. Stop being miserable with a ton of stuff and start finding a life you actually want to live. It's easy to say that though, and not so easy to give things up that are easy/comfortable and make a real change.

We are very lucky though in the US. I'm not saying it's all peaches and cream, and yeah, the rich have way too much and don't share it (power, money, stuff etc), that does suck. That being said, almost anyone can live a comfortable life here without too much effort. That certainly has not been the case throughout history, and still isn't the case in much of the modern world.
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Kyuubi4269 posted...

darkknight109 posted...

You don't have to work if you don't mind living in the wild and hunting/scavenging for food.

You mean "the wild" which is under government jusidiction? The same one which requires hunting licenses? The ones that make sleeping rough illegal?

Yes, those ones.

I mean, this guy managed it for 27 years:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/apr/11/american-hermit-caught-27-years
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darkknight109 posted...

Kyuubi4269 posted...

darkknight109 posted...

You don't have to work if you don't mind living in the wild and hunting/scavenging for food.

You mean "the wild" which is under government jusidiction? The same one which requires hunting licenses? The ones that make sleeping rough illegal?

Yes, those ones.

I mean, this guy managed it for 27 years:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/apr/11/american-hermit-caught-27-years

If you're tracked down and arrested for not serving a higher power, how is that not slavery?
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Kyuubi4269 posted...

darkknight109 posted...

Kyuubi4269 posted...

darkknight109 posted...

You don't have to work if you don't mind living in the wild and hunting/scavenging for food.

You mean "the wild" which is under government jusidiction? The same one which requires hunting licenses? The ones that make sleeping rough illegal?

Yes, those ones.

I mean, this guy managed it for 27 years:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/apr/11/american-hermit-caught-27-years

If you're tracked down and arrested for not serving a higher power, how is that not slavery?

He wasn't arrested for not serving the government, he was arrested for burglary.
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Kyuubi4269 posted...

Zeus posted...

In slavery and serfdom, you had involuntary servitude. The same is true of communist nations that still have forced labor practices. However, for most of the world people *choose* their employers rather than have their employers conscript them against their will either by purchase or birth.

That's a pretty poor definition. People do serve involuntarily, they wouldn't be employed if it were something they could opt out of. They also wouldn't stop being a slave just because they can choose their master, they still serve without want.

Mind you, it's still not slavery as they aren't owned by anybody, they still have legal individual rights.

They absolutely can opt out of it. And many do. In fact, if you want to make an argument for slaves and masters, the US taxpayers who fund people who never held a job in their lives is probably the strongest example of functioning slavery. However, although taxes *are* compulsory, citizens have a say in government which keeps the overall system from resembling slavery, despite having limited ability to leave.

Kyuubi4269 posted...

darkknight109 posted...

You don't have to work if you don't mind living in the wild and hunting/scavenging for food.

You mean "the wild" which is under government jusidiction? The same one which requires hunting licenses? The ones that make sleeping rough illegal?

Property ownership has always been a thing, that's not slavery either.

wolfy42 posted...

Look, we may have slavery here eventually, and in some cases, it's getting close. I have heard horror stories and there was like a special on tv or something, about the working conditions at amazon warehouses. From what I heard from a friend who worked at one (through a temp agency briefly) some of it is true. They don't want you talking to other employees, monitor you constantly and listen to all conversations, you have almost no time to use the restroom etc as you have to clock out where you work, then walk to the area for breaks, and back, which takes up most of your break etc.

Still not even close to slavery. That's not even a company town situation.

Kyuubi4269 posted...

If you're tracked down and arrested for not serving a higher power, how is that not slavery?

Uh, he wasn't "tracked down," he was caught breaking into somebody's home and his entire existence had heavily involved theft.
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work is definitely slavery if you work 80 hours a week
the goal post moves so much when it comes to the economy you might as well just plan a funeral, because that's how long you're going to be working.

darkknight109 posted...

Kyuubi4269 posted...

darkknight109 posted...

Kyuubi4269 posted...

darkknight109 posted...

You don't have to work if you don't mind living in the wild and hunting/scavenging for food.

You mean "the wild" which is under government jusidiction? The same one which requires hunting licenses? The ones that make sleeping rough illegal?

Yes, those ones.

I mean, this guy managed it for 27 years:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/apr/11/american-hermit-caught-27-years

If you're tracked down and arrested for not serving a higher power, how is that not slavery?

He wasn't arrested for not serving the government, he was arrested for burglary.

Yeah its not like the homeless get arrested for being homeless. In a city near where I grew up they'd try to get arrested and cops would just shoo them away. They mostly tried stupid shit like throwing rocks at the police station.
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Yeah, not gonna go on a rant here, but there are many people who don't work, or have not worked at all, and are supported by the government. I believe you should have to work for any benefits, even if it's just answering phones (get a ton more people in the DMVs etc).

They are not slaves, and we are not slaves for paying taxes that support them, but it's a messed up system. Especially since in many cases the money is supposed to go towards children who never see any of it, or very little of it.

Solution in my opinion is free services (like child care etc), and ways to ensure everyone can work and make money if they want (gov supported jobs..instead of free money/food).

Meanwhile that would free up a TON of money to ensure low income housing is available for everyone...which would keep many people off the streets etc.

But whatever, I can't fix the world, I just live in it.
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Zeus posted...

if you want to make an argument for slaves and masters, the US taxpayers who fund people who never held a job in their lives is probably the strongest example of functioning slavery.

How? It's paying for a safety net available to all if necessary, who's compelled to work here? Who's owned?

Zeus posted...

Uh, he wasn't "tracked down," he was caught breaking into somebody's home and his entire existence had heavily involved theft.

As is necessary to live outside control. Which is the point, you can't legally live outside some form of forced servitude.
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RoboXgp89 posted...

work is definitely slavery if you work 80 hours a week

No, it's literally not. And that's a moronic argument.

RoboXgp89 posted...

the goal post moves so much when it comes to the economy you might as well just plan a funeral, because that's how long you're going to be working.

What?
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Kyuubi4269 posted...

Zeus posted...

if you want to make an argument for slaves and masters, the US taxpayers who fund people who never held a job in their lives is probably the strongest example of functioning slavery.

How? It's paying for a safety net available to all if necessary, who's compelled to work here? Who's owned?

Zeus posted...

Uh, he wasn't "tracked down," he was caught breaking into somebody's home and his entire existence had heavily involved theft.

As is necessary to live outside control. Which is the point, you can't legally live outside some form of forced servitude.

Nope knew a homeless guy who made money collecting and selling recycling and selling plasma just to feed himself.

He worked for no one but found away to make at least enough to feed himself.
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Zeus, I agree it's not actually slavery, as you can leave and do something else...why more people don't do that I don't know. I didn't watch the TV special but supposedly some ex-marine was on there complaining about the job/work conditions etc.

Didn't do enough research (any) to really defend it, but I believe they are required to work more then 40 hours with minimal breaks etc. No clue why people do that instead of getting some other job...maybe there was reason.

I was basically just saying that if they kept expanding on that and people were forced to work 80+ hours a week in such situations, it would start to get close to what they have in China (which is what I think it is based off), and then it would just be 1 step away from enforced labor/slavery (basically just need laws, or local law enforcement etc on your side to make it illegal to leave (Even if they charges are for something else etc).

Obviously all of that is illegal and probably not going to happen, but hey, you never know!
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Kyuubi4269 posted...

As is necessary to live outside control.

Not really. If the guy had been independently wealthy - like, say, the child of a billionaire - he could have lived out on a private acreage and no one would have been the wiser.

He stole because he was destitute, not because it's necessary to live outside government control.

Kyuubi4269 posted...

Which is the point, you can't legally live outside some form of forced servitude.

Sure you can - declare your own nation, and have it be free of laws.

Now, like every other nation in the history of the planet, you'll have to defend your new borders from those who don't recognize your sovereignty, but if you can successfully do that you can live however you please.
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Kyuubi4269 posted...

How? It's paying for a safety net available to all if necessary, who's compelled to work here? Who's owned?

The taxpayers are compelled to devote their money to people who put in no labor. That's the closest you'll get to a traditional idea of slavery. And that "safety net" isn't available to everybody in equal measure. Most of us would be ineligible to receive the kinds of benefits that others have been getting all their lives.

Kyuubi4269 posted...

As is necessary to live outside control. Which is the point, you can't legally live outside some form of forced servitude.

You literally can, though. He was ONLY arrested because he was robbing people. And you claim that you can't live without forced servitude (which isn't even a thing right now) while simultaneously acknowledging in the same post that people ARE living off the government without earning income. More to the point, you don't have forced servitude right now. Taxes may be a thing, but if you don't earn or own, you don't have to pay taxes. Likewise, there are exemptions from taxes as well. And, of course, the labor itself is 100% voluntary. Not to mention all the people who don't pay taxes at all.
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Zeus posted...

The taxpayers are compelled to devote their money to people who put in no labor.

Not necessarily. You could spend all your money on charitable donations until the deductions zeroed out your tax bill.

Zeus posted...

And that "safety net" isn't available to everybody in equal measure.

In the same sense that actual safety nets are only available to those who fall of the tightrope, this is true.

Zeus posted...

Most of us would be ineligible to receive the kinds of benefits that others have been getting all their lives.

Unless you are an illegal immigrant or, depending on your location, a convicted felon, this is not true. If your income fell sufficiently, or you suffered disability or debilitation, you would qualify for the benefits you are talking about.
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darkknight109 posted...

Zeus posted...

The taxpayers are compelled to devote their money to people who put in no labor.

Not necessarily. You could spend all your money on charitable donations until the deductions zeroed out your tax bill.

Zeus posted...

And that "safety net" isn't available to everybody in equal measure.

In the same sense that actual safety nets are only available to those who fall of the tightrope, this is true.

Zeus posted...

Most of us would be ineligible to receive the kinds of benefits that others have been getting all their lives.

Unless you are an illegal immigrant or, depending on your location, a convicted felon, this is not true. If your income fell sufficiently, or you suffered disability or debilitation, you would qualify for the benefits you are talking about.

I've met those who didnt need food stamps get them or those who did get way more than they actually needed.

Guy was feeding himself and 2 others (friends not family) then still had some left to sell for booze
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Lokarin posted...

if you don't work, you die... that's slavery

That's a lie.
Plenty of people don't work and don't die.
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You can be a bum and nobody can stop you. I bet actual slaves would've preferred that to forced labour and beatings.
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TheCyborgNinja posted...

You can be a bum and nobody can stop you. I bet actual slaves would've preferred that to forced labour and beatings.

Probably depends on how they were treated as slaves. In America many stayed on with their former owners after being freed. I mean it didn't help that they had little chance of getting a job elsewhere locally but I'm assuming if they where treated like utter shit and being abused they would have taken their chances
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Every day Im forced to pet dogs when I could be taking valuable naps
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mooreandrew58 posted...

but I'm assuming if they where treated like utter shit and being abused they would have taken their chances

Why would you assume this when there's entire books written on exactly how the slaves were treated?

Spoiler alert: they were treated like shit.

To pick one example out of millions, Robert E. Lee, when he caught two slaves that had attempted to escape, had them scourged until the flesh on their back was literally hanging off in tatters. Not content with that, he then had the wounds washed in brine to make them extra agonizing.

Just in case you didn't have enough reason to consider him a piece of shit in human form.
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darkknight109 posted...

mooreandrew58 posted...

but I'm assuming if they where treated like utter shit and being abused they would have taken their chances

Why would you assume this when there's entire books written on exactly how the slaves were treated?

Spoiler alert: they were treated like shit.

To pick one example out of millions, Robert E. Lee, when he caught two slaves that had attempted to escape, had them scourged until the flesh on their back was literally hanging off in tatters. Not content with that, he then had the wounds washed in brine to make them extra agonizing.

Just in case you didn't have enough reason to consider him a piece of shit in human form.

*Sighs* that's assuming every slave owner was exactly the same. News flash they weren't they are people and people are always different. Not excusing slavery in the slightest, its fucked up and wrong no doubt. But not every one of them beat the shit out of their slaves some of them even worked along side them.

I know plenty where treated like shit but go ahead and ignore what I was actually saying. The ones that where I doubt would have stuck around when freed but some did.

Also Lee was a union sympathizer. That's also glossed over he only joined the Confederacy because it would mean fighting family and friends.

Even as a southerner I agree for equal rights reasons the right side one just saying I bet had it been someone else say stone wall Jackson rather than him that fateful day there wouldn't have been a surrender. Lee wanted the war to end and he didn't care for fighting his home country. Just a easier pill to swallow than perhaps gunning down a friend or cousin etc.
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ITT: slackers justifying themselves
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There were good lords and bad lords back in the times of serfs etc. Same with every group of people, but slavery itself, the idea of owning other human beings, is inherantly evil. You could argue there are ways to make it work, but humanity is flawed and because of that, it will never be a fair system.
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wolfy42 posted...

There were good lords and bad lords back in the times of serfs etc. Same with every group of people, but slavery itself, the idea of owning other human beings, is inherantly evil. You could argue there are ways to make it work, but humanity is flawed and because of that, it will never be a fair system.

Not arguing with that. I was just saying some didn't have so super bad that they felt being homeless and penniless was a better option.

Not like they had money before but they where being fed. And if it wasn't a 100% evil dick of a slave owner he fed them well enough so they had their strength for working.
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wolfy42 posted...

but slavery itself, the idea of owning other human beings, is inherantly evil.

Not really. People have historically agreed to slavery for a set period to pay off debts, it's not much different from the Military with its mandatory minimum service.
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Kyuubi4269 posted...

wolfy42 posted...

but slavery itself, the idea of owning other human beings, is inherantly evil.

Not really. People have historically agreed to slavery for a set period to pay off debts, it's not much different from the Military with its mandatory minimum service.

That seems closer to endentured servitude. Which is how some of my family came to this country
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I know one of you posted an acceptable answer the last time I made this topic... I have trouble separating distinct concepts so I don't see a difference between wage-slavery and chattel-slavery.
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slavery was only bad because it was conscipted, which meant their kids were born into slavery(a low income shitty job with no way to move up)

if you saw a bunch of men in pin stripe uniforms working on a rail road you'd be hesitant to call those people slaves

RoboXgp89 posted...

if you saw a bunch of men in pin stripe uniforms working on a rail road you'd be hesitant to call those people slaves

No, since I'm not American I don't believe prisoner forced labour is acceptable.
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Lokarin posted...

I have trouble separating distinct concepts so I don't see a difference between wage-slavery and chattel-slavery.

The only difference is wage-slavery is carefully hidden as "contributing to society".
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SunWuKung420 posted...

Lokarin posted...

I have trouble separating distinct concepts so I don't see a difference between wage-slavery and chattel-slavery.

The only difference is wage-slavery is carefully hidden as "contributing to society".

Ya, I'm not arguing not contributing in some way.

I put this topic on reddit and people are making the same confusions so I can only assume I'm not phrasing myself correctly.

I;m talking about people who feel they can't quit unsafe/unfair/exploitative jobs because of a lack of other optoins
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