Board 8 > Are people too critical of modern games?

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Unbridled9
11/17/18 3:30:01 PM
#1:


Maybe it's just me; but it seems like a lot of people are willing to talk trash about how bad current/modern games are while proclaiming older titles to be leagues better. I'm not going to be dumb about it since a sizable chunk of modern titles DO suck (EX: Sims 4 compared to 3 and 2) but a lot of modern titles... DON'T. So it seems really... unfair... to talk about how horrible Skyrim is while lauding Morrowind or how BotW is a terrible FotM game while Majora's Mask (It's always MM) is some golden pinnacle that basically can't be topped.
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Metal_DK
11/17/18 3:32:22 PM
#2:


Individual games now need to include more people because budgets are massive. Thus, you are seeing a bunch of fans of genres, interest levels, skills, etc all get their feet wet, but not their thirst quenched. This causes more people to feel unsatisfied.

This process happened for a while, but has especially been the issue since 2007 or so.
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XIII_rocks
11/17/18 3:34:38 PM
#3:


Standards are higher, we're older and more discerning, it's harder to impress people because the medium isn't as new anymore, internet people are more negative than when you were a kid, and games take longer to be made now so we have longer to anticipate them (whereas we got new AAA releases basically annually in the ps1 era).

Any one of these things or all of them
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pjbasis
11/17/18 3:36:22 PM
#4:


Only among certain people (like this site).

I think the most common opinion is that games are better today than they used to be.
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Mozzezz
11/17/18 3:38:48 PM
#5:


My two main problems are, one, that games haven't kept pace with the leaps and bounds in advancements we use to get before. Everything started to really stall out after the Wii and PS3 gen, especially when you count PC. I think some of this is just diminishing returns, but the following problem doesn't help.

The other problem is many developers have become content with not really advancing, figuring they'll just move on to the next generation of kids and/or just deal with the gradual advancement of casuals.

So most of these new games may in fact be better then the classics, but when you have already been gaming for years, there are still major problems with that fact.
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INTERWEBUSER
11/17/18 3:40:31 PM
#6:


Its called nostalgia goggles. Games and consoles (sans Nintendo gimmick consoles) are better than they have ever been in history.

If you truly think ancient outdated 20+ year old games are more fun you should take your NES and go live in a cave. While youre at it give up all modern technology too, as it doesnt improve according to your deluded brain.
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BlackMageJawa
11/17/18 3:46:39 PM
#7:


It honestly sickens me that people act like the occasional glitch or framerate drop in a massive, AAA title is something worthy of death threats, then throw money at crap like Goat Simulator and Candy Crush. I'm amazed developers bother at all any more, they could clearly be making a fuckton more money (and taking much less aggravation) for a fraction of the effort.
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Keltiq
11/17/18 3:53:59 PM
#8:


People weren't critical enough of older games.

To be fair, I generally take a very negative view of modern AAA games, but that's mostly because they tend to be multiplayer shooters or open-world games, neither of which I like. The real strength of the modern game industry is the indie boom, which made it so there's a huge variety of quality games.
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foolm0r0n
11/17/18 4:17:31 PM
#9:


Most people have grown out of games so they just shit on new games
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Paratroopa1
11/17/18 4:19:23 PM
#10:


INTERWEBUSER posted...
Its called nostalgia goggles. Games and consoles (sans Nintendo gimmick consoles) are better than they have ever been in history.

If you truly think ancient outdated 20+ year old games are more fun you should take your NES and go live in a cave. While youre at it give up all modern technology too, as it doesnt improve according to your deluded brain.

well maybe I will take my nes and go live in a cave

I'm not inviting you over to my sweetass cave to play tecmo super bowl
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CeraSeptem
11/17/18 4:38:50 PM
#11:


As with all things, the things that get remembered are the things that stood out. People were plenty critical of older games, critical enough that the huge majority of them are largely forgotten. The same is true now, except you remember it better.
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LinkMarioSamus
11/17/18 4:50:24 PM
#12:


Most of my favourite games came out in the 5th and 6th console generations.
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ZeldaTPLink
11/17/18 5:28:57 PM
#13:


I think modern gaming deserves criticism in a lot of ways, but there are still masterpieces being made.

Also comparing any Zelda to MM is a bit unfair. MM is inferior to most Zeldas in quite a few ways, but people love it because it has a level of story, characterization and world-building the rest of the series doesn't even try to do. It's not a better Zelda in the classic Zelda sense, it's an unique work of art.

If you want the perfect Zelda experience you should look for something like Zelda 1/LttP/OoT/TP/BotW, while MM is more like a spin-off.
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foolm0r0n
11/17/18 8:45:53 PM
#14:


lol @ mentioning BOTW there
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Paratroopa1
11/17/18 9:07:50 PM
#15:


I find this to be one of the most dreary topics of discussion "DO MODERN GAMES SUCK" I mean, yes and no, this is and always will be true
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metroid composite
11/17/18 9:11:26 PM
#16:


I mean, as someone whos been making games for nearly 14 years now...the industry has changed.

I started out on a team of 50 making mid-budget games every year. The most recent game I shipped was a 7 year project with about 1,700 people on it (RDR2).

Companies are just much more risk adverse when the budget is that large, so you will get more sequels in established genres with established control schemes. The games will be higher quality than their predecessors in various ways, provided thats the style of game you want to play. And if you like that style of game? Fantastic youre in luck.

But if youre into a genre that used to be popular when you started playing games in the 90s but isnt popular now (text adventures, platformers, RTS) youre basically looking at either the indie market or playing old games.
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G-O-F
11/17/18 9:27:48 PM
#17:


metroid composite posted...
I mean, as someone whos been making games for nearly 14 years now...the industry has changed.

I started out on a team of 50 making mid-budget games every year. The most recent game I shipped was a 7 year project with about 1,700 people on it (RDR2).

Companies are just much more risk adverse when the budget is that large, so you will get more sequels in established genres with established control schemes. The games will be higher quality than their predecessors in various ways, provided thats the style of game you want to play. And if you like that style of game? Fantastic youre in luck.

But if youre into a genre that used to be popular when you started playing games in the 90s but isnt popular now (text adventures, platformers, RTS) youre basically looking at either the indie market or playing old games.

As a guy who kind of wants to try creating games (despite living on Brazil) any advice or tips on what i should learn or have? Sorry to be suddenly asking this but this is kinda my dream job to do even if the world says it sucks to be one id still do it.
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Mac Arrowny
11/17/18 9:29:01 PM
#18:


Not critical enough IMO. It's ridiculous how easy reviewers throw out 8+ scores.
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#19
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foolm0r0n
11/17/18 10:44:38 PM
#20:


G-O-F posted...
As a guy who kind of wants to try creating games (despite living on Brazil)

Brazil has an amazing dev scene that's prob the fastest growing in the world, both indie and professional/contract dev. Find the groups in your area and get started. I know there's a bunch in So Paulo at least.
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MZero11
11/17/18 10:48:53 PM
#21:


Yes, gaming is better than ever
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G-O-F
11/17/18 10:53:24 PM
#22:


foolm0r0n posted...
G-O-F posted...
As a guy who kind of wants to try creating games (despite living on Brazil)

Brazil has an amazing dev scene that's prob the fastest growing in the world, both indie and professional/contract dev. Find the groups in your area and get started. I know there's a bunch in So Paulo at least.

Guess the dream is not over, gonna try that!
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Unbridled9
11/18/18 3:02:52 AM
#23:


ZeldaTPLink posted...
I think modern gaming deserves criticism in a lot of ways, but there are still masterpieces being made.

Also comparing any Zelda to MM is a bit unfair. MM is inferior to most Zeldas in quite a few ways, but people love it because it has a level of story, characterization and world-building the rest of the series doesn't even try to do. It's not a better Zelda in the classic Zelda sense, it's an unique work of art.

If you want the perfect Zelda experience you should look for something like Zelda 1/LttP/OoT/TP/BotW, while MM is more like a spin-off.


I've played every Zelda title except SS (Motion plus problems). That's part of why I'm just so baffled and irritated. I felt MM was kind of middle-of-the-pack and hated the day mechanic; yet I constantly hear about how it's the best Zelda of all time and everything. Same goes for Morrowind and how people act like it's a condensed kiss from a gaming god while Skyrim is a 50 cent hooker you only paid 25 cents for to kiss your butt in comparison (I.E. They can't think of anything positive). Fallout? Same deal except, oddly, for NV. Pokemon Red and Blue? MASTERPIECES WORTHY OF ADORATION! Sun and Moon? YOU ARE A HEATHEN FOR FINDING ANYTHING EVEN REMOTELY POSITIVE!

*sigh*

It's just so damned tiring! As if all people want is the old game but made more 'mature' (I.E. dark with sex and violence) instead of actual improvements and any flaws get blamed onto what technology was like at the time, 'casual complaining', or something else stupid. Sure, some game series and franchises went downhill with modernization, but many went UPHILL as well! We're even starting to see platformers return despite being basically dead since the PS2 era and they're pretty sweet!
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G-O-F
11/18/18 3:24:32 AM
#24:


Unbridled9 posted...
ZeldaTPLink posted...
I think modern gaming deserves criticism in a lot of ways, but there are still masterpieces being made.

Also comparing any Zelda to MM is a bit unfair. MM is inferior to most Zeldas in quite a few ways, but people love it because it has a level of story, characterization and world-building the rest of the series doesn't even try to do. It's not a better Zelda in the classic Zelda sense, it's an unique work of art.

If you want the perfect Zelda experience you should look for something like Zelda 1/LttP/OoT/TP/BotW, while MM is more like a spin-off.


I've played every Zelda title except SS (Motion plus problems). That's part of why I'm just so baffled and irritated. I felt MM was kind of middle-of-the-pack and hated the day mechanic; yet I constantly hear about how it's the best Zelda of all time and everything. Same goes for Morrowind and how people act like it's a condensed kiss from a gaming god while Skyrim is a 50 cent hooker you only paid 25 cents for to kiss your butt in comparison (I.E. They can't think of anything positive). Fallout? Same deal except, oddly, for NV. Pokemon Red and Blue? MASTERPIECES WORTHY OF ADORATION! Sun and Moon? YOU ARE A HEATHEN FOR FINDING ANYTHING EVEN REMOTELY POSITIVE!

*sigh*

It's just so damned tiring! As if all people want is the old game but made more 'mature' (I.E. dark with sex and violence) instead of actual improvements and any flaws get blamed onto what technology was like at the time, 'casual complaining', or something else stupid. Sure, some game series and franchises went downhill with modernization, but many went UPHILL as well! We're even starting to see platformers return despite being basically dead since the PS2 era and they're pretty sweet!

You actually make a fine point, i do find SS extremely interesting for me in a way that it has one hell of a swordplay maechanic, and the Wii Mote actually makes it really fun to go against certain opponents (Scaldera, Demise and others) but it seems that people just go on to dislike because it isn't as open world as other games, like it has to be mandatory always!, Persona 5 didn't need a big world and it was amazing!
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Xiahou Shake
11/18/18 4:19:04 AM
#25:


The truth about the quality of games today vs. yesteryear is pretty tough to pin down. It is absolutely true that AAA games are incredibly risk-averse because failure is actually not an option for them. Budgets are so insanely ballooned these days that if a game of that scale somehow tanked it would tank the publisher along with it. Because of that, developers are forced to play it safe, go with what's proven and make decisions that will bring in the highest number of players rather than catering to any one specific crowd.

That fact aside, a ton of other things mentioned in this topic come in to play and make the situation hard to judge. (Mainly cultural filtering, there was a ton of shit in all the prior generations but it's all been dumped from our memory/we're older and less easily impressed/internet sensationalizes everything these days/etc)

All that said, and even with other modern woes like microtransactions/monetization drama, I think this is easily the high point of the medium thus far. For all the restrictions placed on them, you do still get AAA games that are legitimately great (Odyssey and God of War come to mind as the most recent examples) and the indie boom is resulting in a glut of amazing games and ideas. 2017 in particular, with the insane quantity and quality of games it brought to the table from all genres, budgets, countries and team sizes, is a poster child for just how good of an age we're living in right now.
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Vlado
11/18/18 5:03:48 AM
#26:


People are less critical of modern games than they should be. With some rare exceptions from Japan, Poland or the indie scene, modern gaming is nothing but zero-risk rehashes with insane budgets - amounts of money with which a decent studio could make 5 different original games. A total waste.
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ShatteredElysium
11/18/18 6:01:21 AM
#27:


I think the problem I have with modern gaming is that they have to devote a ton of resources to graphics and/or building a massive world. Whereas I personally don't really care about graphics and I'm far more likely to enjoy a game that has a decent story and interesting characters. Obviously it has to actually be playable too.

This is probably why most of the games I've enjoyed in recent years are RPGs or visual novels or even something like Blazblue which may be convoluted but has interesting characters/story.

For me I started enjoying games less from the PS3 era on and I think it's gotten worse. Maybe because I've gotten older or maybe because senseless mobile games filling small holes in time leaves me less likely to play consoles.
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Averia
11/18/18 6:30:52 AM
#28:


I honestly feel like most old games are pretty bad and people only like them because they didn't have a choice when played them.
I was born after the SNES era and I tried to play some RPG on it like Final Fantasy/Shin Megami Tensei/ect, and I found them terrible.
All RPG on SNES seems to be "walk in various mazes with random encounters every 2 steps".

In bonus, they usually have very obscure things to do to advance you will never find without a guide or wasting hours trying everything.
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Safer_777
11/18/18 6:59:22 AM
#29:


No we are not. The big sites give high ratings. For example I have seen a big site saying that a game is really bad and having nothing going for it and giving it 5 out of 10. What?

5 out of 10 is average! Really bad should be 1 or 2! Why they do that? Or a game is dissapointing and giving it 7.5 out of 10. Huh? What happened?

Also as others have said they give attention to graphics. Why? Graphics is the last thing to focus on an game. Look at PUBG. Using an old engine and nothing impressive yet people like it. And also if it didn't do good the company wouldn't lose much money anyways.

Plus fucking microtransactions, DLC, pre-order bonuses, season passes! Yeah! Seriously any game that have these should be the maximum 8 out of 10 even it is amazing.

But no. So yeah we are not critical. At least the big sites are not. Of course I am older and been playing games for like 30 years but still.

Of course older games had their problems. But at least when you bought it that was it! For example I want to play FF 15 but they keep adding stuff! Why? Adding stuff should be only on multiplayer games!

But anyways this is what I believe.
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#30
Post #30 was unavailable or deleted.
ShatteredElysium
11/18/18 7:33:37 AM
#31:


Oh yeah. DLC and season passes and the such ruined a lot for me. Like I loved Drakengard 3 and wanted to play the DLC but I'm not paying like $7-8 per DLC content when there's like 5 of them and they are only like 1-2 hours long. I'm not paying more in DLC for far less content than the actual game itself, especially when the engine, characters, enemies and world already exist so it must take way less development time

Also fuck fighting games and their DLC characters. In PS2 and early PS3 ers you would get huge rosters. Now it's bare bones rosters and rest DLC

It's not even about the money, it's the principal. When I can go to the store and but full games for $10-25, I'm not paying $5-10 for like 1-2 characters or 1-2 hours of content for a game I already own
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Unbridled9
11/18/18 8:03:46 AM
#32:


metaIslug posted...
Going to assume this topic is cause of Fallout 76. Bethesda is a huge AAA company and they still put out a product like that. Is Fallout 76 the worst game ever? No. Is it worth $60? No. Same with Diablo Immortal, same with FFXV. These companies are on top of the world and all they do is put out trash. And I would even say they know it's trash. They know. But that's just way of the road with some projects. It was always meant to have a year-long development, it was always meant to be a low budget game, it was always meant to have DLC and microtransactions. First they make sure those boxes are ticked, then they worry about the game actually being good (if ever)


Actually it's because of BotW. Which I'm getting fed up of people griping about 'now that the honeymoon period is over'.
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Safer_777
11/18/18 8:14:10 AM
#33:


@ShatteredElysium I agree friend. DLC sucks. Expansions are fine. For example in Wither 3 an expansion that costed around 20. But man. It lasted me over 25 hours! So yeah an expansion lasts longer than most games nowadays!

Or I could buy a DLC character for Diablo 3 that costs 15! I wonder which is better value for my money? Seriously. Money is good. I get it. But companies can afford to make little less money in order to focuse on you know giving us fair prices?
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MZero11
11/18/18 8:24:48 AM
#34:


Unbridled9 posted...
Actually it's because of BotW. Which I'm getting fed up of people griping about 'now that the honeymoon period is over'.


...BotW of all things? Like, the most critically acclaimed game of the last decade? >_>
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Huff n puff 20
11/18/18 9:56:54 AM
#35:


BotW is a radical and Black Sheep in the Zelda series. (Fucking Zelda 2 Adventure of Link is less radical)

Is it bad? Fuck no.

Unless you don't like open worlds and wanted something more akin to the older, more linear Zeldas, which is completely fair. It drops all pretext of being a Zelda in terms of gameplay once you leave the plateau, and is its own thing. Calling it "Legend of Dark Souls: Breath of Skyrim" isn't... Inaccurate. If you were looking for the Zelda experience of delving into dungeons, collecting special items, killing bosses for MacGuffins, you won't find it in BotW. In that, MM (another Zelda with 4 areas) is better, hands down.

Bashing Skyrim for Morrowind is laughable though, unless you really really cared about spell crafting.
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Unbridled9
11/18/18 10:43:43 AM
#36:


Huff n puff 20 posted...
BotW is a radical and Black Sheep in the Zelda series. (Fucking Zelda 2 Adventure of Link is less radical)

Is it bad? Fuck no.

Unless you don't like open worlds and wanted something more akin to the older, more linear Zeldas, which is completely fair. It drops all pretext of being a Zelda in terms of gameplay once you leave the plateau, and is its own thing. Calling it "Legend of Dark Souls: Breath of Skyrim" isn't... Inaccurate. If you were looking for the Zelda experience of delving into dungeons, collecting special items, killing bosses for MacGuffins, you won't find it in BotW. In that, MM (another Zelda with 4 areas) is better, hands down.

Bashing Skyrim for Morrowind is laughable though, unless you really really cared about spell crafting.


People do it all the time. Talking about how Morrowind's world was much richer and you had more freedom and so-forth.

As for BotW I will agree that it's pretty different; but every Zelda game's been different. OoT had time-travel (and was the first 3D one). MM had the day thing. WW had the ship and open world (as well). TP had wolf stuff. SS had motion controls. I don't see how you can say BotW isn't 'a true Zelda game' because it is open world (What? Did you never play the original or something?) and it's dungeons are... short... but then claim those titles are despite their own quirks.

Not saying you are. Just that people who gripe about these things and call it bad or a black sheep or what-not might be a wee-bit hypocritical.
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iiicon
11/18/18 12:25:35 PM
#37:


I think you might need to reframe your argument and centre it on you and the communities you interact with. pjb brought up a good point, one that I don't think is controversial on this board, that a large number of people on this site, and specifically this board, have fallen out of the hobby of playing new games. It's going to take a lot for them to notice something new. And if that something new is apart of a franchise they enjoy, they will naturally compare it, possibly unfavourably, to the games they already enjoy if it's a departure from why they enjoy it. You mentioned Morrowind vs. Skyrim, which is the sort of perfect encapsulation of this. Morrowind is an adventure game, a weird, alien world with existing political struggles that invites you to poke at its corners and break it in ways you always wanted your DM to let you do. Skyrim is very much not that. It does not have the hooks someone who deeply loves cRPGs requires. It's a straightforward game, something that set the standards for open world games. Someone can like both (I do), or even love both (I don't!), but their strengths are diametrically opposite.

'Too critical of modern games' is a weird argument to make on the whole however when we're still feeling the effects of a widespread gaming harassment movement. Writers who discuss modern games with even a moderate critical lens on a games own terms - like, say, God of War and masculinity, or Shadow of the Tomb Raider and colonialism, both of which are central themes of those games the creators discussed beforehand - are exposed to the gamer outrage machine. A reviewer gives a positive review of Red Dead Redemption 2, but only scores it a 3/5, is sent death threats. Neither of these things are particularly new - death threats for low scores dates back to the Sega/Nintendo wars - but they are amplified and worse now.
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davidponte
11/18/18 12:28:40 PM
#38:


Modern games are great.
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Mozzezz
11/18/18 12:38:21 PM
#39:


G-O-F posted...
Unbridled9 posted...
ZeldaTPLink posted...
I think modern gaming deserves criticism in a lot of ways, but there are still masterpieces being made.

Also comparing any Zelda to MM is a bit unfair. MM is inferior to most Zeldas in quite a few ways, but people love it because it has a level of story, characterization and world-building the rest of the series doesn't even try to do. It's not a better Zelda in the classic Zelda sense, it's an unique work of art.

If you want the perfect Zelda experience you should look for something like Zelda 1/LttP/OoT/TP/BotW, while MM is more like a spin-off.


I've played every Zelda title except SS (Motion plus problems). That's part of why I'm just so baffled and irritated. I felt MM was kind of middle-of-the-pack and hated the day mechanic; yet I constantly hear about how it's the best Zelda of all time and everything. Same goes for Morrowind and how people act like it's a condensed kiss from a gaming god while Skyrim is a 50 cent hooker you only paid 25 cents for to kiss your butt in comparison (I.E. They can't think of anything positive). Fallout? Same deal except, oddly, for NV. Pokemon Red and Blue? MASTERPIECES WORTHY OF ADORATION! Sun and Moon? YOU ARE A HEATHEN FOR FINDING ANYTHING EVEN REMOTELY POSITIVE!

*sigh*

It's just so damned tiring! As if all people want is the old game but made more 'mature' (I.E. dark with sex and violence) instead of actual improvements and any flaws get blamed onto what technology was like at the time, 'casual complaining', or something else stupid. Sure, some game series and franchises went downhill with modernization, but many went UPHILL as well! We're even starting to see platformers return despite being basically dead since the PS2 era and they're pretty sweet!

You actually make a fine point, i do find SS extremely interesting for me in a way that it has one hell of a swordplay maechanic, and the Wii Mote actually makes it really fun to go against certain opponents (Scaldera, Demise and others) but it seems that people just go on to dislike because it isn't as open world as other games, like it has to be mandatory always!, Persona 5 didn't need a big world and it was amazing!


I really enjoyed SS and thought it was one of the best games in the Zelda series, but still, that was part of the Wii gen even if it was close to the very end. It annoys me a bit how many people just passed over it or hate it when it makes some of the best use of motion controls in any game out there (or at the very least its a great starter game for advanced motion controls). The back half of the Wii was fairly weak, but I still think too many people gave up completely on it too early and didn't keep an eye out for titles like SS.
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Mozzezz
11/18/18 12:38:34 PM
#40:


ShatteredElysium posted...
I think the problem I have with modern gaming is that they have to devote a ton of resources to graphics and/or building a massive world. Whereas I personally don't really care about graphics and I'm far more likely to enjoy a game that has a decent story and interesting characters. Obviously it has to actually be playable too.

This is probably why most of the games I've enjoyed in recent years are RPGs or visual novels or even something like Blazblue which may be convoluted but has interesting characters/story.

For me I started enjoying games less from the PS3 era on and I think it's gotten worse. Maybe because I've gotten older or maybe because senseless mobile games filling small holes in time leaves me less likely to play consoles.


I'm currently playing Blazeblue Central Fiction on PSNow on PC and am really enjoying it. I definitely think modern fighting games are an improvement over most older ones and some are worth playing, but still, this is my first Blazeblue game, and if I had played the older ones (even though I think they all would fall into the modern category but they still date back a few years), I'm not sure how much I would be enjoying this one.
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"Lower your guard and you will allow the enemy in." - Frog from Chrono Trigger (the original alt frog).
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foolm0r0n
11/18/18 1:01:33 PM
#41:


Unbridled9 posted...
Actually it's because of BotW. Which I'm getting fed up of people griping about 'now that the honeymoon period is over'.

That's dumb as hell. You're complaining that people prefer MM to BOTW even though BOTW had like 16 months of "OMFG BEST GAME EVER MADE 12/10!!!!!!!!". And it's still just a tiny contingent of MM supporters (esp vs OoT, WW, etc).

Yes people are starting to realize BOTW is bland and empty compared to older Zeldas. So what? It's still probably the biggest example of blind fanboyism and LACK of criticism in games (much moreso than the 8.8 TP nonsense).

If you still think it's the best game ever then fine, but in no way are people being too critical of it. It's still given massive benefit of the doubt because it has Zelda in the name.
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G-O-F
11/18/18 1:47:11 PM
#42:


foolm0r0n posted...
Unbridled9 posted...
Actually it's because of BotW. Which I'm getting fed up of people griping about 'now that the honeymoon period is over'.

That's dumb as hell. You're complaining that people prefer MM to BOTW even though BOTW had like 16 months of "OMFG BEST GAME EVER MADE 12/10!!!!!!!!". And it's still just a tiny contingent of MM supporters (esp vs OoT, WW, etc).

Yes people are starting to realize BOTW is bland and empty compared to older Zeldas. So what? It's still probably the biggest example of blind fanboyism and LACK of criticism in games (much moreso than the 8.8 TP nonsense).

If you still think it's the best game ever then fine, but in no way are people being too critical of it. It's still given massive benefit of the doubt because it has Zelda in the name.

I actually used to be a big hater of the way BoTW went but after i experienced it thoughtfully, there were things i enjoyed, the Divine Beasts, despite being short, are rather memorable as dungeons for me and i put then there with Majora's equivalent 4 dungeons, some sidequests and overworld events are rather well made and i did like the amount of tunics we get, which are actually rather different one from the other, of course it has it's problems, and i have a bit of a personal peeve with the Hero Tunic being replaced by the Champion Tunic(because if a kid comes to me and say that is Link legendary clothes man that is going to make my eyes roll XD), but it did try a lot of new things, some worked, some didn't but it was an interesting experience though, by the way what was you guys favorite Divine Beast? it was Vah Ruta for me, Waterblight was also a good throwback to Ocarina in a way.
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Best Games of 2017 list: Persona 5, NieR: Automata, RE VII, Tales of Berseria.
Playing 2018: MHWorld, GoW, RDR2, BlazBlueCTB, Smash Ult, Spider Man.
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Unbridled9
11/18/18 3:23:08 PM
#43:


iiicon posted...
I think you might need to reframe your argument and centre it on you and the communities you interact with. pjb brought up a good point, one that I don't think is controversial on this board, that a large number of people on this site, and specifically this board, have fallen out of the hobby of playing new games. It's going to take a lot for them to notice something new. And if that something new is apart of a franchise they enjoy, they will naturally compare it, possibly unfavourably, to the games they already enjoy if it's a departure from why they enjoy it. You mentioned Morrowind vs. Skyrim, which is the sort of perfect encapsulation of this. Morrowind is an adventure game, a weird, alien world with existing political struggles that invites you to poke at its corners and break it in ways you always wanted your DM to let you do. Skyrim is very much not that. It does not have the hooks someone who deeply loves cRPGs requires. It's a straightforward game, something that set the standards for open world games. Someone can like both (I do), or even love both (I don't!), but their strengths are diametrically opposite.


But then is it wrong to point out just how lacking Morrowind is in it's mechanics as well? It's numerous flaws and issues? 'Of course it's fine'. But that's sort of not the point. It seems that people, especially nostalgia-ridden old-timers, jump down the throat of Skyrim for basically every little even minor 'issue' while defending every aspect of Morrowind. As if the only way for ES:VI to be any good would be for it to be Morrowind 2.0. It's the same with a lot of other games like MM (it's ALWAYS MM) or RBY but the outcome is always the same. Hyper-criticism of newer titles for every little fault (even upsides like streamlined mechanics) while lauding the older titles and worshiping every aspect.

'Too critical of modern games' is a weird argument to make on the whole however when we're still feeling the effects of a widespread gaming harassment movement. Writers who discuss modern games with even a moderate critical lens on a games own terms - like, say, God of War and masculinity, or Shadow of the Tomb Raider and colonialism, both of which are central themes of those games the creators discussed beforehand - are exposed to the gamer outrage machine. A reviewer gives a positive review of Red Dead Redemption 2, but only scores it a 3/5, is sent death threats. Neither of these things are particularly new - death threats for low scores dates back to the Sega/Nintendo wars - but they are amplified and worse now.


Well no duh. In the two examples you gave I'd say it depends on what they were saying and why. However, assuming the pretty likely scenario of it being critical of those games because of those aspects... No duh people are mad. It's irritating as heck to constantly deal with moral guardians and politically motivated outrage; especially from people who seem to be only casual gamers at MOST. I mean, imagine someone saying that Psycho is a horrible movie determined to teach people to be killer monsters and they should know because they are a full-time cinemaphile because they enjoy watching Mamma Mia on a frequent basis. You'd be pretty upset too.
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I am the gentle hand who heals, the happy smile who shields, and the foot that will kick your ***! - White Mage
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SantaRPidgey
11/18/18 3:46:14 PM
#44:


I think criticism when games fail to live up to their predecessor is completely valid. Jurassic World is 100% inferior to Jurassic Park, not because we hate new movies or are blinded by nostalgia, it's because you both have a piece of art that's impossible to live up to, and a descendant that sets out to do a completely different thing.

No Zelda game will ever be good in the same way that Majora's Mask is good, no Final Fantasy will ever be good in the same way FFVII is good. No pokemon will ever be good in the same way R/B is good. For older games like this, the entire being of the game is perfection because that's how the culture enjoyed the game. It doesn't mean the game is perfect, it's just a game that has endured the test of time and kept our love throughout the years.

Take FFVII (I'm going to use this game as an example because it's a game I played late) can you really even remake the game? Of course you can't. You can retell the story well enough, but with modern cutscenes you're going to add elements to the characters that weren't there before, which takes away what they were. If you fix the translation errors you're tarnishing a pure experience but if you leave them in you're just pandering to nostalgia. Even just changing the lego graphics to something more palatable takes something away from the game.

That's just what it is to try to create art that satisfies the market that past art satisfied. It's a futile endeavor. You can still make something that's fun and scratches the itch like Odyssey does for Mario 64, and you can even make a new media that surpasses the old one in every way like Shovel Knight does does for the platformers that it was inspired from.
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foolm0r0n
11/18/18 3:49:44 PM
#45:


Unbridled9 posted...
It's irritating as heck to constantly deal with moral guardians and politically motivated outrage; especially from people who seem to be only casual gamers at MOST.

At least you're self aware
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iiicon
11/18/18 3:50:28 PM
#46:


Unbridled9 posted...
But then is it wrong to point out just how lacking Morrowind is in it's mechanics as well? It's numerous flaws and issues? 'Of course it's fine'. But that's sort of not the point

setting up a straw man that doesn't exist (the Morrowind Combat Defender), knocking it down, and then transitioning away from it because it's irrelevant is an interesting choice.

Unbridled9 posted...
As if the only way for ES:VI to be any good would be for it to be Morrowind 2.0. It's the same with a lot of other games like MM (it's ALWAYS MM) or RBY but the outcome is always the same. Hyper-criticism of newer titles for every little fault (even upsides like streamlined mechanics) while lauding the older titles and worshiping every aspect.

I don't know where you hang out that people are completely uncritical of Morrowind (nobody likes melee combat, if you run into a rat early in the game you're kinda boned), Majora's Mask (pretty much everyone agrees there aren't enough dungeons), or RBY (battle system is pretty unbalanced). Doesn't seem like a healthy place! I suggest leaving? Or ignoring these people? Or if you must, ask them why they prefer the old games over the new ones? Because with all three examples, there's pretty clear reason why: Morrowind and Majora's Mask do specific things different than their respective series standards, while the Pokemon games are very iterative and perhaps that only works once on a person.

Unbridled9 posted...
However, assuming the pretty likely scenario of it being critical of those games because of those aspects... No duh people are mad. It's irritating as heck to constantly deal with moral guardians and politically motivated outrage

If you're gonna make a topic arguing people should treat games fairly and discuss them on their own terms and then argue that people treating games fairly and discussing them on their own terms are annoying and they aren't even real gamers anyway, I think the place you're looking for is one of the many GamerGate sites, or at least Vlado's Nationalist topic.
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iiicon
11/18/18 3:53:22 PM
#47:


SantaRPidgey posted...
Jurassic World is 100% inferior to Jurassic Park, not because we hate new movies or are blinded by nostalgia, it's because you both have a piece of art that's impossible to live up to, and a descendant that sets out to do a completely different thing.

on the other hand, jurassic world 2 is 500% superior to jurassic park because after the first act where it's sad dinos: the movie it basically becomes dino crisis: the movie. checkmate.
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ICON:
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scarletspeed7
11/18/18 3:55:46 PM
#48:


What's weird is that every game people have listed here has been a game I enjoy and am happy to have purchased and played. I know that gamers as a community love to be hyper-critical as a badge of honor nowadays, but I guess I would like to stand here and say - happily - that despite criticism I could make or flaws I could point out, I love video games, I love the immersive aspect of a great story and an intriguing world, and the experience of these great games in various genres and generations is wholly unique. I'm so tired of bickering over something that we as a site should in general be celebrating.
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iiicon
11/18/18 3:58:01 PM
#49:


SantaRPidgey posted...
no Final Fantasy will ever be good in the same way FFVII is good.

also I'm not so sure about this, because Square seems to have stumbled on what makes FF7 so good, which is basically a bunch of broken people dealing with depression in healthy (Barrett, Zack), unhealthy (Cloud), and destructive (Sephiroth) ways.

will Square never make a FF7 game that reaches the high of FF7? yeah probably not. but they might stumble on that formula again unknowingly. and it would probably play better too.
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ICON:
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profDEADPOOL
11/18/18 4:01:23 PM
#50:


CeraSeptem posted...
As with all things, the things that get remembered are the things that stood out. People were plenty critical of older games, critical enough that the huge majority of them are largely forgotten. The same is true now, except you remember it better.

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