Board 8 > Smash Ultimate Mafia ENDGAME

(+) Yeah! (+)

So that people can continue to complain and such.
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##Vote:Han
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Hey sorry for replacing out, I ended up with a really bad sinus infection and couldn't possibly participate that way.
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Wow, only two posts dang.

I thought the discussions were worthwhile.
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It's not just for Chris, I agree that any role that doesn't require it's team or user to think about how to use it is a bad role.
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...it's over already?
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I feel like strongman is usable but it becoming an every game thing is not great. Reminds me of when we had a Miller every game, just ends up being bad for the community.
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Which roles are banned here anyway? Silencer and Jester, anything else?
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Right so hello again, I think there are two important things to consider when I talk about strongman as a role.

First, I speak out of frustration because the role has become a kill Chris button. God that's not fun for me. And in fact in the last game scum didn't need their strongman, no protection saved me. It's just the fact that with strongman scum doesn't even have to hesitate, and that is also bad role design.

For example in my recent game (... I forget my own flavor... music?) I had a strongman that was a 100% sure kill if you knew the person's role along with your choice to kill them. So for example if day 1 I messed around and claimed, it activates. Or if they decided to use their scanner night 1 on a high powered target they get to murder them night 2. Or if they force a claim they could still in theory murder night 1. I love the elegance of this role because the kill is a reward for play. It rewards pressure or punishes lax play or it rewards scum's choice to use a power on a member of town and follow it up.

I think strongman is a needlessly lazy role. Scum already win a vast majority of the games in this community. There is push back because of the selfish nature of this idea from me but frankly it isn't a bad one just because I am being selfish. Asking for elegance in setup design is not a bad thing just because it benefits me. Also I am not even asking for a stacked deck, I would just like to be able to sometimes play the game longer or if scum wants to shoot me night 1 they at least have to take some risk in that play.

I know in my heart that is not asking for too much. As a host, as someone with a great eye for balance, I know I am both being selfish but also making a good point.

There are plenty of toys for scum, and there are many roles that can be invented.
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Scum bomb, anything that punishes town for a correct lynch.

Princess isn't "banned" afaik, but kind of is.
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I don't disagree with anything you said. I think strongman is a very strong (get it) role that can be used from time to time. The frustration is getting it in every game and, like you said, just using it on the same person. Strongman with other requirements can make it very usable. Delayed strongman, being unable to use it until a later night. Poisoner that gets around normal protection is another way to do it. Strongman N1 with no restrictions just doesn't feel fun.
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Strongman isn't a check for doctor. Roleblocker is.

Strongman exists to remove target players, not roles. It is anti-player.

In a heavy protection game, scum probably should get an unblockable in some way, but at least make it poison.

Just some thoughts. Strongman isn't needed for balance. And Towns can't learn to get better if they never learn from good Town play.

This last game was amazing in terms of how it started - @Hbthebattle @hombad46 , it was great having you join our community. Even players like @TheSultanOfSlam and @Pirate_Harris it's great to see you guys sticking it out and coming back for more. Sultan, you ARE improving, and it shows.

@Arti , I think you said you were going to put up signups, but unless you really had your heart set on it, I'd like to take next game. I think it would benefit us to have a more open setup with some chaos.
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I am pleasantly surprised gan did not go off on me and actually agreed it was a good decision there
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well I feel like the game I'm hosting has enough chaos and some interesting scum roles (and no strongman) but if you want to go for it, go ahead

I don't know if I'll have a chance to host during tax season so it would have to be in January or not at all
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Chris I have the midway point for you but it would go against my personal interests

Introduce open setups

I very much prefer closed but it sounds like the key here for middle ground
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Sorry for everything, Han.
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Chris, I think I respect the argument a lot more than you're willing to admit it is for selfish reasons. I think what Shad just said makes the most sense that we just need to vary a little more so that Strongman isn't always in every game. I'll take the blame on this one because I know I just threw this together real quick. (My bad again Arti I didn't know you had a game ready.)

And since we kept this alive I wanted to answer some questions Corrik had for me:

Interjecting into a game mid game if not in the game is exactly the same. I wouldn't roll my eyes if I were you unless into a mirror.

Eaed, what if the godfather never posted his role pm onto the board?

Did we ever get told roles were renamed by moves in the game?

Did we ever get an example town pm?

Luckily it didn't ruin the game, but it coulda... And nearly did!

Sultan, that's mafia. If you take things to heart it isn't the game for you. Everything said in game is just game talk. People call me s*** nonstop basically every game. Who cares? Lol

Good point on number one, I thought that a good teammate would have shared. You were told that moves were renamed roles in the signups but also, even your roles were all told what your roles actually were in your PMs and when I listed who and what was on your scum team. Cape (Cop), PSI Shield (Doctor), Squidd (Untrackable), Falcon Punch (1-Shot Vig), Incineroar I renamed and put in () for each individual power. I even screwed up the flips a couple of times because I forgot to post the move names.

Things I screwed up that could have ruined the game in my opinion. Forgetting to send Pirate that he was slept with, that was a huge mistake on my part and I almost called the game on it. The second one was changing your safelist to include more villains because that was giving the scum more information than was originally given and more information than town. In the end everything turned out okay but I gave a very half-assed effort as host and I apologize for that again.

In the end, I am glad it worked out and even though it seemed more like debate at first it feels like as a community we are having a health discussion about the games themselves.
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Like I said I think I just need a break and having pain through the second half of the game really didnt help. I'll play again some day just not any time soon
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Everything is archived.

ashchive.altervista.org
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Arti posted...

well I feel like the game I'm hosting has enough chaos and some interesting scum roles (and no strongman) but if you want to go for it, go ahead

I don't know if I'll have a chance to host during tax season so it would have to be in January or not at all

Go ahead and take it then! I was just going to do something weird for the next game.

Our games are typically mafia vs Town and altogether rather samey. I was hoping to put together a big change of pace.
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I'm dying to have a game with a good old fashioned sk.

Survivor is such a boring role.

I'm ready for a cult tbh
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ScareChan posted...

I am pleasantly surprised gan did not go off on me and actually agreed it was a good decision there

It was only a good decision because you were able to pull it off without being punished.

Replace FD with one player of moderate skill and it probably backfires. Have any of the surviving Town players analyze the lynch and it probably backfires.

It is not the right play most of the time, but based on the read of the game, putting me on defense and removing me from the game ws the right play... hell, even if it took out 2-3 Scum, it was a worthwhile trade.

Ben and Doop were the only Town who could really make something happen after my death and you wisely killed ben after Death.

Lolo_Guru posted...

Sorry for everything, Han.

After I died, you made an earnest change in how you were playing. I noticed that at least.
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It was definitely a play based on game state and trust in the rest of the scum team coasting
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I was legit upset you thought I was bailing on the game though
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Oh man did that Chris mafia topic purge
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Yes
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I liked my variation where you had a set target but had to wait one full game day for the unblockable to take effect giving them Day 2 to analyze the lynch at least and if a scanner claims you cant pivot to them (or can, but have to wait a full day once again)

But alas
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HanOfTheNekos posted...

Replace FD with one player of moderate skill and it probably backfires. Have any of the surviving Town players analyze the lynch and it probably backfires.

Han, I made a read that scare would not fake in that position, because it didn't feel like there was any real pressure on him to claim.

That read, was wrong. But I made it, and I stuck with it. And I knew that at the very least, if it WAS wrong, he was literally sacrificing himself by making it so he'd be dead the next day.

I admitted during the day that it had the potential to be wrong, but I made a choice and I stuck to it.

.

From there I was onboard with the Pendragon lynch, but I couldn't bring myself to do it based on the weirdness of "Ben says that Terra kinda maybe countered, but then wasn't around for a significant chunk of time to confirm the counter", so the follow up lynch should have been Pendragon every singe time, and it sucks that it wasn't. And then the following day Pendragon was clearly the choice so I'm still not sure how that got screwed up.

But the bottom line for myself is I need to be more willing to play outside the lines when there is a play that seems "logical" in front of me, so that is my takeaway from this game.

.

@DoomTheGyarados I don't want to hear it from you after the way you handled the day 1 lynch. An inactive? At the very end of the day?? A lynch that told us nothing about nobody? I was right about Red. You were right about Scare. You could have used your ability to force town to do what you want to kill EITHER one of them, and you switch to an inactive in the final hours of the day. We learned nothing from that lynch.

I'm willing to cop to the mistakes I make during games, and there are certainly a few, but this was an empirical mistake on your part. And it's not just a results based mistake because of how the alignments happened to fall, but a true mistake in the sense that we would have learned more from a town lynch on red or scare than we would from a random flip on jedi one way or the other.
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You are never going to improve if you are this arrogant. Probably won't want to be in another game with you for quite some time, FD.
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It's arrogant to admit that I made mistakes and that I will take what improvement I can from the game?

Damn, I'd better get a new dictionary because mine is all wrong.
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Yes, you do, considering I caught two scum hopping to the town inactive but you (and no one else) seemed bothered to realize it was a town/scum lynch which meant votals matter. But tell me more how nothing could have been learned from that lynch.
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Also, a good thing I hope people take away from our scumteam this game:

don't panic. We were on the ropes basically every single day and we basically got out of it every time we needed to. Stay calm, stick to your guns and don't give up until the day is over.

Or in Scare's case, the day after you've made your trade, in which case the correct play is to absolutely say nothing.

The easiest way to lose all credibility is to stop playing. So just keep town talking til something rubs them the wrong way and they move somewhere else.
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Because you caused everyone to follow you from target to target to target, so their movement from one to the other was immaterial.

There was the SAME amount of chris-induced movement from scum red to scum scare, as there was from scum scare to town jedi.

But players had given their thoughts on red.
And players had given their thoughts on scare.

And players had say "hrmm, who is that" about Jedi, with no alignment indicative thoughts whatsoever.

They followed you to jedi because you are chris. Scum may have followed you because it gave them an excuse to not lynch scare, but that is utterly indistinguishable from town following you because they don't have any better ideas day 1 and here you are commanding all the attention in the world so why not?
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Like I am so sick of having my worst day examined and nitpicked and blah blah blah over and over because ON MY WORST DAY OF DATA ANALYSIS, THE ONLY DAY I GET TO LIVE I was heavily annoyed that someone went completely idle and didn't care about the game after I had successfully poked red (I shot him so obviously I knew he was scum) and had all but murdered scare for everyone (My mistake for letting that go but let's be real red was right not like anyone else was doing anything) for some guy with days and days of information to just make bad decisions and then tell me "hurr day 1 you weren't perfect" while not even understanding the information that my play actually DID give him.

Like.. fuck.
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Forceful_Dragon posted...

Because you caused everyone to follow you from target to target to target, so their movement from one to the other was immaterial.

There was the SAME amount of chris-induced movement from scum red to scum scare, as there was from scum scare to town jedi.

But players had given their thoughts on red.
And players had given their thoughts on scare.

And players had say "hrmm, who is that" about Jedi, with no alignment indicative thoughts whatsoever.

They followed you to jedi because you are chris. Scum may have followed you because it gave them an excuse to not lynch scare, but that is utterly indistinguishable from town following you because they don't have any better ideas day 1 and here you are commanding all the attention in the world so why not?

No FD, it wasn't. That's just the lie you tell yourself. I looked at the votals night 1 and was like "Interesting/" And then if you had looked at the votals day 2 you would have noticed names in common with han lynchers and jedimess lynchers. But you didn't. So just stop.
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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Yes, you do, considering I caught two scum hopping to the town inactive but you (and no one else) seemed bothered to realize it was a town/scum lynch which meant votals matter. But tell me more how nothing could have been learned from that lynch.

That was definitely mentioned several times. I know I specifically had it in my notes, but I didn't have a chance to say it because someone had already made the point.
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Here let me help:

Jedimess [5] - Chris, jombad46, (Ben), (Scare), Pendadragon, (Pirate), Scare, (Pirate), (HB), Ben
Scare [4] - (Chris), (Ben), (LoLo), Death, (Han), (FD), Doop, Terra, Han
Chris [3] - (Scare), (Sultan), (Han), Shonen, Lolo, Pirate
red13n [1] - (FD), (Chris), (Ben), (Shonen), (Han), (Lolo), (Sultan), (HB), FD, (Pirate)
Han [1] - (HB), Geno
Terra [1] - Sultan
Lolo [0] - (Han)
death [0] - (Ben), (Scare), (Pirate), (Ben)
FD [0] - (Scare)
geno [0] - (hombad46), (HB)
hombad46 [0] - (Sultan)

Day 2 Votals:
[8] Han - Scare, (Ben), Pendragon, (Sultan), (HB), FD, lolo, Death, (Shoenin), HB, (Pirate), Hombad, Pirate

The only person who was town who ended on Jedimess aside from me was Ben. Scare/Pen/Hom (and the latter two weren't with me for other lynches)

No FD. No.
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Terra-enforcer posted...

DoomTheGyarados posted...

Yes, you do, considering I caught two scum hopping to the town inactive but you (and no one else) seemed bothered to realize it was a town/scum lynch which meant votals matter. But tell me more how nothing could have been learned from that lynch.

That was definitely mentioned several times. I know I specifically had it in my notes, but I didn't have a chance to say it because someone had already made the point.

Look I am sorry to be be whole game blunt but HB/Hom/Pen just protected scum every time and they were never lynched so you may have brought it up but we're in an end game where town got its ass kicked so bringing it up and actualizing are the same thing to me. It's about pushing it properly, stop splitting hairs.
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Also protip for those who vote your town doc, Terra was on the scum jack in a 5-4 split. Probably town.
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Not a player but I agree that d1 assassin is a completely solved meta on b8. I think I've assassinated chris every single time I've been scum and its dumb that I have never failed to get away with it. If assassins are in the game, set them to night 2 imo. Two days is enough for players to actually do something and it's a less braindead, punishing play to kill the chattiest, smartest townie.
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the one game I hosted where I had a scum assassin and a town chris, chris was assassinated night 1

so there might be some truth to that
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In recent years I've put a lot of caveats into my EK roles. It can also serve for a good mislead.

In my last one the poisoner poisoned himself if he got roleblocked doing it.

Scum didn't need to know town had no RB obv.

Blade Mafia 4 had an EK who automatically failed his shot and didn't get it back if anyone targeted him the night he used it, even his own scum members.
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counter

have watchers so they can see chris die
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ScareChan posted...

counter

have watchers so they can see chris die

Ninja strongman obv.

But seriously, that still punishes the consensus n1 kill.
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I like the idea of Strongman/Assassins not going N1
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Alternatively, make the scum team give something up for it's use. Everyone knows you visited this person. Scum team must give up a night kill before it's use. Poison the strongman when they make the hit.

Basically, make it so it's not a brainless "kill the same person n1".
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Personally I prefer allowing them the ability but to incorporate an actual risk to just using it blindly, which is why I like the one I used in BM4.
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I've used scum vigilante in the past, and I did enjoy how I made Earthbound Mafia that had the scum inventor with one of his items being an extra kill. That also solved the problem of having a shot ready for use at n1.
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In my defense for the day 1 vote, Scare was pretty much our most valuable role, so I felt I had to make a scummy vote to save him. (Also inactivity for half of the first day would probably get a policy lynch from me regardless)
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