Board 8 > Umineko Theatregoing Topic *unmarked spoilers for the whole series*

(+) Yeah! (+)

Dlanor directly acknowledged that it was possible to create a coherent, entertaining mystery that didn't follow Knox though...

Regardless, I was not happy with the 'trick' used in The Murder of Roger Ackroyd. >_> While it might be possible to argue it didn't violate the rules it did, it just overall felt kinda... 'dirty' to me.
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So what mystery novels would you all recommend?
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I'd suggest reading Crooked House eventually, it's quite good.

The thing to note is that Agatha Christie was basically the pioneer in exploring ways to subvert mystery fiction. Her books were pushing boundaries in whodunnits, so she wasn't terribly concerned with fair play rules (though she does try to be fair enough in most cases).
All that eventually led to Umineko.
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I'm aware, which is why I still hold her in high regard. I just learned the hard way not to apply rules to her books which were written before said rules were developed.
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Eerieka posted...

I'm aware, which is why I still hold her in high regard. I just learned the hard way not to apply rules to her books which were written before said rules were developed.

You should also take into account this bit of Knox's 1st:

The second half of the rule is more difficult to state precisely, especially in view of some remarkable performances by Mrs. Christie. It would be more exact to say that the author must not imply an attitude of mystification in the character who turns out to be the criminal.

up
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Dels posted...

also, why would real-life-battler jump out a window just to prove a point

is it just because he hates erika that much?

He literally gets it

Then he disregards everything because he doesn't actually realize he gets it

but he gets it

He's having such a hard time because he's throwing everything out. He's noticing he's confused, then not even trying to sort out the confusion. It's getting a bit frustrating to read >_>. Still fun overall though, haha
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he ain't gonna like the rest of this game, I think
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He's getting more frustrated than I got, far sooner. And my frustration was justified JUST SAY WHO IT WAS WILL

JUST SAY IT
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It occurs to me I'm getting into dangerous territory with the GM stuff since a lot of it impinges on Battler's game, so I guess I'd better stop talking about it.
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I do relate to what he is saying about pieces and it being hard to understand that concept. I guess I got to a point where it was like, if a piece does something does it even really matter? When the piece Eva apologizes to Ange in 8 for being so bad as a parent, it doesn't actually matter because that's not even the actual Eva. And that's even more compromised because Battler made the pieces in 8 to be especially nice. But THEN, a lot of that stuff is just representations of Ange's internal conflicts over her feelings.
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Umineko's metanarrative has so many layers it's hard to keep things straight, so I understand all the confusion. I don't think Ryu07 necessarily felt it had to be perfectly consistent as long as you could vaguely get it. Ultimately pretty much all of the meta level is coming from either Tohya or Ange as a representation of their struggles to come to terms with the incident, but if you asked me to explain things scene by scene I'm sure I would be unable to.
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Now that I've thought about it/read up a bit more about what's going on in the story, 5 is pretty cool (or maybe more cool? I already liked it). Like, about how Lambadelta is not pulling any punches and taking full advantage of "Yasu could bribe anyone to get them on their side" to pull of some crazy stuff. Like Dells talks about Eva being too happy, and that's because she's in on the "fake murder" plot, and just thinks she's pulling a prank on someone she hates. She has no idea everyone is dead.
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Sceptilesolar posted...

Umineko's metanarrative has so many layers it's hard to keep things straight, so I understand all the confusion. I don't think Ryu07 necessarily felt it had to be perfectly consistent as long as you could vaguely get it. Ultimately pretty much all of the meta level is coming from either Tohya or Ange as a representation of their struggles to come to terms with the incident, but if you asked me to explain things scene by scene I'm sure I would be unable to.

It comes back to "without love, it can't be seen."
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without bump it cannot be seen
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handsomeboy2012 posted...

If this is true it's beyond f***ed up.

that's it that's the whole game
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handsomeboy2012 posted...

Notice how the focus is all on how the door got unlocked.
Here's my take. The door was already unlocked before the key was given away. All the victims had to do was open it and walk in and get killed.
Beatrice only said it is impossible to unlock without that key. But the killer can lock it without the key when he leaves.

I think this is the first time I've seen someone catch on to this so early, good job
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Well, not exactly. It's the one red truth that I think Ryukishi just forgot to include explicitly, but the only door on Rokkenjima that can be locked from outside the room is the one to Kinzo's study. All the others either have deadbolts or are set with chains. I've seen a lot of people think of modern doors where the lock isn't engaged until the door shuts, but that isn't supposed to be allowed on Rokkenjima.

He still doesn't realize the door was never locked at any point.
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Sceptilesolar posted...

Well, not exactly. It's the one red truth that I think Ryukishi just forgot to include explicitly, but the only door on Rokkenjima that can be locked from outside the room is the one to Kinzo's study. All the others either have deadbolts or are set with chains. I've seen a lot of people think of modern doors where the lock isn't engaged until the door shuts, but that isn't supposed to be allowed on Rokkenjima.

He still doesn't realize the door was never locked at any point.

To his credit, he's still like 90% of the way to that particular answer much faster than pretty much anybody I've ever seen/talked to (Myself included)

it's weird playing Fate/GO (which also uses the 72 demon god thingies) and seeing Umineko names pop up. I didn't actually realize that most of the magic characters were actually named after the 72! (actually I'm not sure I realized the 72 HAD individual names)
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handsomeboy2012 posted...

15. Nanjo
Whats his purpose in the story other than dumping info about Kinzos past? I do feel bad for him though, what Kinzo did to his friend was nothing short of betrayal.

Nanjo looks at a bar of gold
"Oh well, guess the gold wins again. Looks like that makes Gold: 1000, Morals: 0."

that's it that's the series
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Maybe his clinic is in a bad shape.

THAT'S WHY, MORE THAN ANYTHING, HE NEEDS A LOT OF MONEY RIGHT NOW.
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I find it kind of interesting that when wondering why Vigilla was acting nice and described as a good witch when she did that heel turn in EP3, Dels never considered that the heel turn might have been the lie. I'm willing to bet that's pretty common too.
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hm
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JeffreyRaze posted...

I find it kind of interesting that when wondering why Vigilla was acting nice and described as a good witch when she did that heel turn in EP3, Dels never considered that the heel turn might have been the lie. I'm willing to bet that's pretty common too.

I havent even considered that!!!!
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what

that
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he hadn't considered it
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"Hot take: Ange fell to her death in 1998, that's why she can reach Purgatory like Battler did. What I'm seeing now is a timeline where she didn't die."

Not nearly as hot as he believes.

so much umineko
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so very much
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#bump#
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yay dels is going again
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I feel like this image I made when I was playing Episode 8 didn't get enough adulation so I'm posting it AGAIN because I just came across it


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lol
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I love that we have multiple topics just for the differences in perspective. Dels is right that handsomeboy is accepting magic way too easily, but handsomeboy is reading the character motivations a lot better in some cases.
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Does anybody know whether Dels watched or read Higurashi?

I don't think he has. He would have mentioned it after seeing Bernkastel if he had.
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Team Rocket Elite posted...

I don't think he has. He would have mentioned it after seeing Bernkastel if he had.

In other words, Rules X, Y and Z mean nothing to him oh well

In lighter news Dels is literally getting his answers and is missing that fact

Erika straight up murdering the people playing dead was a top tier moment.
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And Dels got so close to figuring it out but couldn't quite get there,
That big break he took probably didn't help though.
oh well
time for
https://i.pinimg.com/474x/0e/e4/2d/0ee42d1afbba748017a6aa05bceb913d--so-yeah-wardrobes.jpg
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Time for Big Bill Will to win over another read.
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Poor Dels, I feel so tempted to give him a bit of hope at least. I won't though, I can respect not wanting to be spoiled. I ran into the Shannon/Kanon thing before I read Umineko and it very much changed how I approached it.
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I haven't been following for a while. Where's Dels at now?
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Just finished Episode 6.
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I wonder how Dels will like episode 7. It introduces brand new chatacters out of nowhere for little reason (even if I really like cliche cool Will is) which almost seems like parody. Plus while answers are sort of given, its not in any satisfying way AND it dovetails into the beginning of 8 where Ange is villainized for wanting answers and Im remembering now just how much I hated that
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