Board 8 > Hearthstone Discussion Topic 493 - Rise of Shadows Is Upon Us

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LiquidOshawott
05/18/19 7:48:19 PM
#451:


Honestly Hunter if built neatly could do well in specialist I think
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HanOfTheNekos
05/18/19 7:49:29 PM
#452:


metroid composite posted...
HanOfTheNekos posted...
surprised nobody's taking Tesspionage Rogue into Grandmasters

What does Tesspionage Rogue...beat exactly?

Like...pretty sure it loses to Tempo Rogue. Pretty sure it loses to giants mage. And pretty sure it loses to Warrior (control warrior is probably a decently close matchup, but still, if they have DK Boom on 7 and generate a few Omega Devastators, I don't think it matters how many 1 cost cards you draw).


I feel like I've got close to 75% winrate against Warrior. Maybe skewed because the games take so long, but Warrior moves so slow that you can usually win it. Guaranteed if you draw into Boom yourself, because that turns your Tesses into "add 20 cards to your deck"
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KokoroAkechi
05/18/19 9:16:09 PM
#453:


Tesspionage rogues matchup against tempo rogue is so bad its likely to never see play in a high level tournament.
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HanOfTheNekos
05/18/19 9:53:09 PM
#454:


It's a little rougher. You definitely need luck to nab saps for VC and have bodies that give you value via fox and burglar. But at 10-7 ranks it's not the worst matchup
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SaintAkira7
05/18/19 9:54:35 PM
#455:


davidponte posted...
Taking it slow with the adventure. Finished CH 1 with all 3 classes, and have 1 more class to finish Heroic on, then I'll move on to CH 2.

Dungeon Run was easily my favourite solo content, but I think this beats it.


Yeah I'm having fun with the Heist. Beat it with Hunter and Mage first runs. Just unstoppable decks. Haven't been past the 3rd boss with the shaman snek yet tho :(

Just trash treasures and poo cards, each time. Want to clear the bank level with all three before moving on to the second stage.

And I agree this trumps Dungeon Run, fairly handily in my book.
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Camden
05/18/19 10:00:06 PM
#456:


I'm trying to decide if I want to complete each chapter with every single class or not. After Heroic, that's 90 runs I'd need to complete.

I haven't touched chapter two yet, do you have to unlock the extra hero powers and starting decks all over again like in heroic or do they carry over?
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KokoroAkechi
05/18/19 10:02:15 PM
#457:


HanOfTheNekos posted...
It's a little rougher. You definitely need luck to nab saps for VC and have bodies that give you value via fox and burglar. But at 10-7 ranks it's not the worst matchup


we're not talking about 10-7, we're talking about players who have consistently been top 50 finishers, points leaders, former world champions, etc.
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Camden
05/18/19 10:03:53 PM
#458:


Also from tavern brawl, I learned that playing The Darkness into Harbinger Celestia doesn't cause her to change into anything.
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HanOfTheNekos
05/18/19 10:13:19 PM
#459:


KokoroAkechi posted...
HanOfTheNekos posted...
It's a little rougher. You definitely need luck to nab saps for VC and have bodies that give you value via fox and burglar. But at 10-7 ranks it's not the worst matchup


we're not talking about 10-7, we're talking about players who have consistently been top 50 finishers, points leaders, former world champions, etc.


Yeah, but I originally meant the point in terms of the field being 90% warrior.
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KokoroAkechi
05/18/19 11:20:54 PM
#460:


HanOfTheNekos posted...
KokoroAkechi posted...
HanOfTheNekos posted...
It's a little rougher. You definitely need luck to nab saps for VC and have bodies that give you value via fox and burglar. But at 10-7 ranks it's not the worst matchup


we're not talking about 10-7, we're talking about players who have consistently been top 50 finishers, points leaders, former world champions, etc.


Yeah, but I originally meant the point in terms of the field being 90% warrior.


I dont even think the matchup it has versus warrior is good enough to bring even if you knew ahead of time that everyone would bring it (which is a huge advantage).
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HanOfTheNekos
05/19/19 10:56:23 AM
#461:


idk dog ALMOST did it according to teammates so it could've been successful. Maybe we'll get a chance to see at one point.

Lost my first single player run in this expac because I picked the "give you one of the death knight hero powers" and ended up with DK Rogue for the final boss of the Violet Hold -_-
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LiquidOshawott
05/19/19 11:02:29 AM
#462:


Thief package is probably good in Conquest since you can ban Rogue but I feel like you can run like, Togwaggles Scheme and Waggle and that could probably scare Warriors more
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metroid composite
05/20/19 2:03:29 AM
#463:


Watched bits of grandmasters. Yeah, they really need balance changes if they want this format to be good.
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NewerShadow
05/20/19 1:06:11 PM
#464:


Balance changes, you say?
https://playhearthstone.com/en-us/blog/22990356?linkId=100000006326891

Raiding Party 3 -> 4 mana
Miscreant 5-> 4 health
Prep (3) -> (2) reduction
Elysiana 8 -> 9 mana

Arriving May 22.

They look about as you might expect, I think?
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#465
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Camden
05/20/19 1:17:43 PM
#466:


Should have just put Prep in the hall of fame.
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SaintAkira7
05/20/19 1:22:06 PM
#467:


Camden posted...
Should have just put Prep in the hall of fame.


Agree. Mana Wyrm as well.

I seem to recall them saying something in the past about Wild being a place you can go play your favorite old decks that are no longer playable in Standard. Not so much the case anymore.
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azuarc
05/20/19 2:09:43 PM
#468:


Those changes seem a little misguided. Rogue is strong, but it doesn't feel horribly out of whack. I'm fine with each of those changes independently, but I don't think they all needed to occur. As for Elysiana, okay, so we can't play Baleful Banker the same turn. Whoop de doo. Now can you maybe remove the mech tag from Devastator? Or is Blizzard just hoping that dropping the hammer on rogue will remove the incentive to play warrior?
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SaintAkira7
05/20/19 2:54:47 PM
#469:


azuarc posted...
Or is Blizzard just hoping that dropping the hammer on rogue will remove the incentive to play warrior?


I mean, Idk what else the thought process could be. Nerf bat rogue, then maybe everyone won't play the class that can beat up on it.

Kind of a bad way to go about it, imo at least. Warrior still has access to arguably the strongest card in the game, and that's not changing.
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davidponte
05/20/19 3:03:16 PM
#470:


As an exclusively Control Warrior player this expansion, these changes please me.

Rogue dies and my mirror matches become slightly shorter. Win/Win.
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davidponte
05/20/19 3:38:37 PM
#471:


However there's a good chance we just see Combo decks now that Rogue isn't there to punish them, in which case, I'm unpleased.
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Peridiam
05/20/19 3:47:03 PM
#472:


I havent been a fan of HS since Whispers of the Old Gods, but occasionally pop in to try some of the new solo content.

Im really enjoying Dalaran Heist. Probably my favorite solo content thus far.
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MrSmartGuy
05/20/19 4:34:43 PM
#473:


This is really going to usher in an era of Bomb Hunter. The only reason they weren't running amok now was because Rogue could out-tempo them and keep them off the board. Now they're gonna be better against their worst matchup, since Warrior has trouble because all their stuff is mechs, so their best card doesn't work against them.
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azuarc
05/20/19 5:14:59 PM
#474:


davidponte posted...
As an exclusively Control Warrior player this expansion, these changes please me.

Rogue dies and my mirror matches become slightly shorter. Win/Win.

If you're mostly playing warrior, why are you happy that rogue is dead?
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davidponte
05/20/19 5:54:36 PM
#475:


I dislike Rogue as a class and always have! I selfishly enjoy it being bad.
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azuarc
05/20/19 7:15:53 PM
#476:


davidponte posted...
I dislike Rogue as a class and always have! I selfishly enjoy it being bad.

That's funny, because i feel the same way about warrior! (No, really.)
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LiquidOshawott
05/20/19 8:33:45 PM
#477:


Rogue still sees play methinks, maybe the raiding party package gets shelved but everything else seems good still

Think not hitting Conjurers Calling is surprising
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HanOfTheNekos
05/20/19 8:41:08 PM
#478:


Prep will hurt my Tess deck, but I'm not sure by how much. Just early sprints that it hurts, really.
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metroid composite
05/20/19 10:35:31 PM
#479:


Camden posted...
Should have just put Prep in the hall of fame.

I don't agree with this.

* Rogue still needs combo activators in standard. I've even used prep just to activate the combo on a minion like Elven Minstrell without any cost reduction. It's still a really good card to have around in standard, and taking it out of standard completely would leave a big hole.

* The prep nerf is somewhat mild. Prep Eviscerate was a common use of prep, and that interaction actually does not change at all.

* Prep at -2 reminds me of the mage card Elemental Evocation (except it hits a lot more stuff and is a combo activator).

* Prep at -2 will probably STILL be used in Wild as well. Counterfit Coin is in about 11% of Wild Rogue decks right now, and Prep even after the nerf is probably still a stronger card than Counterfit Coin.
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metroid composite
05/21/19 1:20:08 AM
#480:


MrSmartGuy posted...
This is really going to usher in an era of Bomb Hunter. The only reason they weren't running amok now was because Rogue could out-tempo them and keep them off the board. Now they're gonna be better against their worst matchup, since Warrior has trouble because all their stuff is mechs, so their best card doesn't work against them.

All of the mech based hunter/paladin decks were literally built as anti-warrior techs, specifically because Dyn-o-matic does not hit mechs.

Like...Bomb Hunter literally loses (by small margins not massive margins) to every real aggro/tempo deck in the format including magic carpet zoo, token druid, murloc shaman. Also loses to control shaman (turns out hex and earth shock are good against magnetic, who knew?)

Don't get me wrong, solid aggro deck that happens to beat warrior while also having a good matchup against giants mage thanks to venomizer and spider bomb, it'll still have a place in the meta. But it's got a bunch of counters.
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metroid composite
05/21/19 1:39:14 AM
#481:


Hm, well, opened Blastmaster Boom, so decided to see how far away I was from making bomb warrior.

Pretty darn far TBH.

0x Shield Slam
1x Town Crier
0x Wrenchcalibur
1x Brawl
0x Augmented Elek
0x Dr Boom: Mad Genius

I do actually have 2x Omega Devastator, 1x Darius Crowley, 1x Captain Greenskin, and 1x Zilliax, so that's nice I guess. Just 4800 dust away from actually trying this deck and seeing if it's actually a deck I want to play >_>

(Exhibit A on why I have so few wins on Warrior...).
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Camden
05/21/19 1:23:19 PM
#482:


https://playhearthstone.com/en-us/blog/22990355

Wh...what in the world? Blizzard is buffing cards?

Did Thunderhead even need a buff? Outside of meme-hopper decks it seems out of place here in that it's a card that I already see people playing.
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NewerShadow
05/21/19 1:36:51 PM
#483:


Cards Im interested in within that block: Necromechanic, Unexpected Results?, Extra Arms.

Crystology now being a 1-mana draw 2 is pretty nuts.

Pogo Hopper at 1 means you can consistently tutor it with witchwood Piper now, I guess. Violet Haze is strong in arena but probably still too bad for constructed.

Both warrior mechs will be more annoying when discovered.
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HanOfTheNekos
05/21/19 2:19:44 PM
#485:


Extra arms buff makes my silence priest deck stronger.

Not sure why the warrior mechs needed buffing...
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davidponte
05/21/19 2:24:10 PM
#486:


They essentially made unplayable cards slightly less unplayable, except in the case of Warrior in which they boosted the power level of Boom's discover hero power a whole bunch.

Feels good to be a Warrior player right now.
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#487
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#488
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MrSmartGuy
05/21/19 9:52:16 PM
#489:


The turn before I took this screenshot, I played 24 cards.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/162396569289752576/580572261023744010/unknown.png

This deck ended up with 4 Saraads, 3 Beardos, 2 Kodoriders, and 2 Mukla's Champions. Easily the most completely insane deck I've come up with so far. Turns out even without those cards, free 0-mana permanent pre-nerf Innervates that you can play twice a turn (or a bazillion Saraad and Beardo) are pretty good.
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KokoroAkechi
05/21/19 10:46:45 PM
#490:


Quick thoughts on the changes

Evil Miscreant
-Still a bonkers card. The difference now is that it's easier to kill so you can get severely punished by like having it live with 1 hp and getting it bounced or evolved. I actually think it should have gone up 1 mana and kept the stat line.

Raiding Party
-I think this makes the card go from nuts to... maybe I don't play this? I don't know, because this is a very core part of rogues current deck and its like this combined with the prep nerf is a huge hit and other version of rogue have not worked out. But when you just look at the cost and power of the card compared to others I really wonder why it was ever printed in the prenerf state to begin with.

Preparation
-About time. This means you can still prep some of the core classic cards in the set but it also means that huge power swings from other cards are a lot harder to do. This is a change that should have happened when quest rogue was nerfed the first time.

Archivist Elysiana
-So, I think this should have either been set to 10 or have an added text of can only active once per duel per playing or something. Right now I think even at 9 most control decks still play it. Notably this means that shudderwock shaman would basically be massively favored against control warrior now due to the ability to trigger their Elysiana twice. Like you can argue that oh, in 50% of games the warrior has the coin and that's pretty lame. Yeah, but keep in mind that you have to put a card in your deck that is only really good in like 50% of games that are control mirrors (brewmaster) and you have to keep the coin for the entire game.

AND THE BUFFS

I'm only going to talk about the cards I think will start to see some play

Necromechanic
-I think this is going to start getting to see potential slotted in as a 1 of in some mech packages. The ability to potentially double DR with like mechanical whelp or even just explode a bunch of bombs for double damage is now more appealing because you can use this as a tempo play with added value potential.

Unexpected Results
-Pretty sure this is just a good card now, it's like inbetween prenerf and current call to arms imo but i'm not sure it will fit into anything more than a fringe deck atm.

Crystalogy
-Only mentioning this because the card already sees play in basically the only paladin deck that is really seeing a lot of play on ladder (holy wrath). Personally, I don't think the change makes that deck much better, but it might mean more aggressive paladins start to see more play.

Thunderhead
-This card also saw some play, but I feel like a lot of shamans were just cutting it due to it being too inconsistent (myself included). Now at 6 HP it has a higher chance of sticking on the board if you just want to drop it, which is a big deal.
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metroid composite
05/22/19 12:38:36 AM
#491:


HanOfTheNekos posted...
Not sure why the warrior mechs needed buffing...

Because literally no one includes them in decks?

Like, yeah, they can be obnoxious when disovered from Dr. Boom, but it wouldn't surprise me if they have plans to nerf Dr. Boom. The Warrior mechs are still so weak you don't put them in decks.

Among the cards being buffed...

Gloop Sprayer is in 7% of Druid decks. Pretty sure this is just intended as a buff to Lucentbark Druid.

Mulchmuncher is in 6% of Druid decks. There's lots of different ways of building token druid, and Mulchmuncher basically excludes Crystalsong Portal so...it probably doesn't power up the archetype as a whole, just adds another common build of it.

Necromechanic is in 1% of Hunter decks. This buff is definitely big though. It's now like a 3/6 taunt for 4 mana, so basically it's another Houndmaster Shaw.

Flark's Boomzooka is in 0.1% of Hunter decks and I doubt that changes much.

Unexpected Results is in 0.4% of Mage decks, and this I could see changing a bunch. I don't even think you need spellpower, just two 2-drops for 3 mana is a pretty good rate, and it's a fairly cheap spell to go with apprentice and cyclone.

Luna's Pocket Galaxy is in 0.8% of Mage decks. I don't think this number goes up dramatically but the decks get quite a bit stronger.

Crystology is in 56% of Paladin Decks. There's no way to read this other than being a blatant massive buff to Paladin, and I think this might even go into Wild decks like Odd Pally.

Glowstone Technician is in 15% of Paladin Decks. To be clear, it probably shouldn't be, just Kibler made it popular. At 5 mana, though, maybe there's something there.

Extra Arms is in 5% of Priest decks, although TBH I think a good chunk of those are probably whizbang decks. Better Blessing of Kings sounds good, though.

Cloning Device is in 2.3% of Priest decks. This is basically entirely Whizbang decks, and even at 1 mana this card is probably garbage.

Pogo Hopper is in 1.3% of Rogue decks. I mean, Pogo Hopper is still Pogo Hopper, and I don't think it costing 1 changes the deck much. Does mean it's easier to tutor, and potentially relevant is that it works with Magic Carpet now, so that's neat.

Violet Haze is in 0.2% of Rogue decks. TBH, this would be a much more reasonable card to reduce to 1 mana. (Crystology, really?) But then again, obviously they want to nerf Rogue and buff Paladin so. Violet Haze is still hot garbage.

The storm bringer is in 2.2% of Shaman Decks (most of these are Whizbang decks). TBH, I don't have high hopes for this card in Standard, but in wild? Yeah, I'll be testing it in Even Shaman.

Thunderhead is in 15.3% of Shaman Decks. This is another one of those "clearly they wanted to buff the class". But worth noting, as good as this card is, there's a lot of shaman decks that don't run it--you need to commit a bunch of cards to an overload package. This is another one of those 3/6 taunts for 4 now, like Houndmaster Shaw.

Spirit Bomb is in 0.3% of Warlock decks. At 1 mana...I think the comparison is pre-nerf Rockbiter Weapon, 1 more damage when removing minions, but can't go face or be used on your own minions. I think the "can't go face" and "can't avoid the self-damage" sink this in different decks, but it probably doesn't have a home.

Dr. Morrigan is in 2.2% of Warlock decks. Pretty sure these are Whizbang (or Zayle?) decks. At 6 mana it's better Cairne Bloodhoof if it pulls a 4/5.

Security Rover in 1% of Warrior decks.
Beryllium Nullifier in 0.6% of Warrior decks.

I suspect again most of these would be from Whizbang decks. That probably won't change much.
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HanOfTheNekos
05/22/19 12:40:24 AM
#492:


Hey I run extra arms.

Do you think the changes to those warrior mechs will make them included in decks, at least in the short run?
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KokoroAkechi
05/22/19 12:54:42 AM
#493:


HanOfTheNekos posted...
Hey I run extra arms.

Do you think the changes to those warrior mechs will make them included in decks, at least in the short run?


No. the card pool for warriors is extremely strong right now. Like what are they replacing? Dynmoatic? Militia Commander? Omega Devastator?
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HanOfTheNekos
05/22/19 12:59:33 AM
#494:


KokoroAkechi posted...
HanOfTheNekos posted...
Hey I run extra arms.

Do you think the changes to those warrior mechs will make them included in decks, at least in the short run?


No. the card pool for warriors is extremely strong right now. Like what are they replacing? Dynmoatic? Militia Commander? Omega Devastator?


So then, in our current meta, we likely won't see those cards gain much real use, but they do constitute as a buff for Boom. So, again, not sure why they needed buffing.
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LiquidOshawott
05/22/19 1:03:54 AM
#495:


Probably to buff something from that set for Warrior to keep the changes even

That set gave them Omega Assembly, Weapons Project, Supercollider, Dynomatic, Rover, Boomship, And Boom itself
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MrSmartGuy
05/22/19 1:30:40 AM
#496:


Oh God, this is gonna be the least fun thing to ever run into.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bw4hI6RL3jg" data-time="&start=184


This seems like an egregious oversight, and I hope it gets fixed before it ever sees the light of day.
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azuarc
05/22/19 10:19:44 AM
#497:


I have to agree. These buffs look like they'll help warrior the most because those are cards that already see play -- not as mainlist, but indirectly -- and warrior is already in a really good place.
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SaintAkira7
05/22/19 11:08:11 AM
#498:


metroid composite posted...
Pogo Hopper is in 1.3% of Rogue decks. I mean, Pogo Hopper is still Pogo Hopper, and I don't think it costing 1 changes the deck much. Does mean it's easier to tutor, and potentially relevant is that it works with Magic Carpet now, so that's neat.


I don't think you're running Magic Carpet with your pogo, but it's going to be experimented with. I do think the deck will run Spirit of the Shark.

The main upside to this is now at 1 mana, there won't be interference from say, Novice Engineer, Thalnos (some Pogo decks run it), or Lab Recruiter when tutoring for Pogo with Witchwood Piper. So now you'll have a guaranteed tutor for the Pogo (as you alluded to) :)

I don't anticipate it suddenly becoming a tier 1 deck or anything of the sort. But I do think it'll be somewhat better and I'll play it regardless of it's tier ranking anyway.
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azuarc
05/22/19 11:19:13 AM
#499:


I love pogo rogue. It's so bad, but when it works, by god, it works.
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davidponte
05/22/19 2:00:21 PM
#500:


Nerfs are live
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I was the final Undisputed Champion in UCA history,
however Advokaiser was the Guru Champion!
... Copied to Clipboard!
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