Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 227: Cancel the Politics Topic: 250 B8ers will Die

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NFUN
06/22/19 3:53:52 PM
#1:


i tried
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Espeon
06/22/19 4:06:13 PM
#2:


Dont forget the politics tag.
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LordoftheMorons
06/22/19 4:28:17 PM
#3:


Apparently the New York Times has decided not to report on a famous writer credibly accusing the president with rape beyond an article in the books section

At least WaPo finally has an article up
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ChaosTonyV4
06/22/19 8:39:16 PM
#4:


250 b8ers?

In 2019 that's like 3 deaths a piece.
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LordoftheMorons
06/22/19 11:10:52 PM
#5:


Interview with a lawyer who inspected a border patrol facility holding children in Texas. Super fucked up:

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/inside-a-texas-building-where-the-government-is-holding-immigrant-children
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LordoftheMorons
06/23/19 5:22:47 AM
#6:


Apparently there is a large group of people for whom being a rapist isn't a dealbreaker for their presidential vote:

https://twitter.com/SamaraKlar/status/1142567246213996544
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red sox 777
06/23/19 6:46:01 AM
#7:


There is a large group of people for whom there is only one dealbreaker for their vote - being a Democrat.
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ChaosTonyV4
06/23/19 12:10:53 PM
#8:


https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/449876-trump-claims-media-got-it-wrong-on-iran-strike-i-never-called-the

Apparently his dementia caused him to forget that he literally tweeted about it.
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Not_an_Owl
06/23/19 12:11:10 PM
#9:


LordoftheMorons posted...
Apparently there is a large group of people for whom being a rapist isn't a dealbreaker for their presidential vote:

https://twitter.com/SamaraKlar/status/1142567246213996544

We already knew this back in 2016.
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LordoftheMorons
06/23/19 11:40:32 PM
#10:


I dont usually post memes, but this one is too perfect

https://twitter.com/mcrouchpr/status/1142264469919338497?s=21
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LordoftheMorons
06/23/19 11:41:21 PM
#11:


Not_an_Owl posted...
LordoftheMorons posted...
Apparently there is a large group of people for whom being a rapist isn't a dealbreaker for their presidential vote:

https://twitter.com/SamaraKlar/status/1142567246213996544

We already knew this back in 2016.

Well, there was the possibility that they deluded themselves into thinking Trump was innocent despite all of the evidence, but apparently that wasnt even necessary!
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red sox 777
06/24/19 12:55:16 AM
#12:


LordoftheMorons posted...
Not_an_Owl posted...
LordoftheMorons posted...
Apparently there is a large group of people for whom being a rapist isn't a dealbreaker for their presidential vote:

https://twitter.com/SamaraKlar/status/1142567246213996544

We already knew this back in 2016.

Well, there was the possibility that they deluded themselves into thinking Trump was innocent despite all of the evidence, but apparently that wasnt even necessary!


That poll asked about any sexual misconduct, which is a much broader category..
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Mr Lasastryke
06/24/19 2:53:45 AM
#13:


How can you mock nebulous strawman "liberals" about reading an economics book once and thinking they can debate economics when you voted for and support a president based on the merits of having zero experience in his chosen job, red sox.


red sox didn't vote for trump. he wrote in bernie.
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Lightning Strikes
06/24/19 6:25:13 AM
#14:


In Turkey, opposition candidate and secular liberal rising star Ekrem Imamolu defeated Erdoan's ruling party in the rerun of the Istanbul mayoral election. This is hugely significant because:

1) Erdoan's right wing, religious party has ruled Istanbul for 25 years.
2) The first election in March had Imamolu ahead by only 13,000 votes (0.2%). This time he won by 800,000 (9.4%).
3) The opposition now controls the five biggest cities which account for 70% of Turkey's economy.
4) A lot of former Erdoan supporters flipped.
5) A famous saying is "Who wins Istanbul wins Turkey".
6) In addition to improving the city, Imamolu is also exposing and stopping a lot of the corruption Erdoan enabled.

So this is seen as potentially the beginning of the end for Erdoan, and democracy is definitely alive in Turkey.
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red sox 777
06/24/19 10:44:03 AM
#15:


Mr Lasastryke posted...
How can you mock nebulous strawman "liberals" about reading an economics book once and thinking they can debate economics when you voted for and support a president based on the merits of having zero experience in his chosen job, red sox.


red sox didn't vote for trump. he wrote in bernie.


Yes, and now Bernie has introduced a plan to cancel all of the existing student debt in the country. That's... probably bad policy, but it's a much better offer for me personally than Elizabeth Warren's plan. I haven't made up my mind for 2020 yet but I'm listening. Your move, President Trump.

It's true that essentially bribing citizens for votes is really corrosive to any republic in the long run, so I'm very hesitant to be too enthusiastic about any proposal that benefits me substantially more than the median voter. I have a higher student loan balance than the median person with student loans (and obviously more than the median voter). Also have a higher income than either of those medians, so Bernie's plan is definitely unfair in my favor.
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red sox 777
06/24/19 10:49:27 AM
#16:


And of course, it's really unfair to people who paid for their college, or whose parents did. Trump would say it's their own fault for choosing to spend their own money when they could have spent other people's money and then refused to pay it back like a good Trump casino hotel, but this seems like not a great expectation to put on the average voter.
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Ashethan
06/24/19 10:56:11 AM
#17:


red sox 777 posted...
And of course, it's really unfair to people who paid for their college, or whose parents did.


You know, it's really unfair to lower the rich's taxes when rich people before had to pay more taxes.
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NFUN
06/24/19 10:58:30 AM
#18:


You know, it's really unfair to cure polio when so many people are already paralyzed
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red sox 777
06/24/19 10:59:12 AM
#19:


Bernie, how about instead of paying for this with a tax on the rich, we pay for it with a tax on colleges? They are the ones who received all these massive sums of tuition and who have never paid any income tax because they are "non-profits." They definitely turn a huge profit and they should be paying tax.

Also, no more tax deductions for donating to colleges. Right now a rich person only needs to donate 630k out of pocket to make a 1 million donation because the government covers the rest with a tax deduction.
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red sox 777
06/24/19 11:04:01 AM
#20:


Ashethan posted...
red sox 777 posted...
And of course, it's really unfair to people who paid for their college, or whose parents did.


You know, it's really unfair to lower the rich's taxes when rich people before had to pay more taxes.


But I'm not rich, so I have less room to criticize a policy that benefits them. Under Bernie's plan, I would personally benefit more than 95% of voters I think, so I have to be aware that I am likely to be biased in supporting a policy that favors me.
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Ashethan
06/24/19 11:14:22 AM
#21:


red sox 777 posted...
But I'm not rich, so I have less room to criticize a policy that benefits them. Under Bernie's plan, I would personally benefit more than 95% of voters I think, so I have to be aware that I am likely to be biased in supporting a policy that favors me.


My wife and I have paid off our college loans. (Hers were outrageously expensive. Law School will do that to you). I support the policy, despite the fact that I will not (currently) benefit from it.
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Mr Lasastryke
06/24/19 12:34:15 PM
#22:


i get that colleges in the US are ridiculously expensive and that bernie is trying to fix this issue but cancelling all the student debt does seem a bit unfair, especially since i'm still in the process of paying off my own college debt. maybe lower the debt instead of cancelling it altogether?
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LordoftheMorons
06/24/19 12:40:06 PM
#23:


Its definitely bad policy. And hes proposing to pay for it with a tax on all stock/bond transactions, which is basically insane and will end up being a huge tax on peoples retirement accounts.
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DoomTheGyarados
06/24/19 12:45:17 PM
#24:


The system is fundamentally rigged. Bernie is fixing the rigging so that our country's future is set to be propelled. No stress from medical problems. No drowning in debt. A fresh start to fix decades of system corruption.

Also, you know how you get young people to turn out and vote? Same way you get a lobbyist gets a meeting. You give them something. Except instead of taking care of banks or another big company, Bernie is taking care of a sizable portion of the American people.

I approve.
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DoomTheGyarados
06/24/19 12:47:42 PM
#25:


LordoftheMorons posted...
Its definitely bad policy. And hes proposing to pay for it with a tax on all stock/bond transactions, which is basically insane and will end up being a huge tax on peoples retirement accounts.


If you can afford a retirement account, you don't need that money as much as a lot of Americans who are struggling to get by and grow.

Then when we get everything sorted out you won't need as much money to retire because your healthcare was assured for most of your life so you'll actually end up with more if you ever needed a formerly expensive surgery due to M4A.

Bernie is the hero we need.
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xp1337
06/24/19 12:50:03 PM
#26:


Mr Lasastryke posted...
i get that colleges in the US are ridiculously expensive and that bernie is trying to fix this issue but cancelling all the student debt does seem a bit unfair, especially since i'm still in the process of paying off my own college debt. maybe lower the debt instead of cancelling it altogether?

tbqh, the whole "it's unfair" thing around this has always seemed utterly bizarre to me. To be frank, it's struck me as a kind of reverse "**** you, got mine"

I mean, I "get" the visceral reaction of "But I had to pay!" but I mean... if we identify student debt as a problem... shouldn't we act to remedy it? We're never going to reach some magical moment in time where all student debt is paid off whereupon we can enact a bunch of reforms to try to improve things going forward. Any attempt at tackling it is going to benefit current debtholders.

FWIW, Warren's plan on this isn't a straight cancelling of all student debt, but it forgives $50k of it for all who earn under $100k (estimated to be around 42 million people). Is that the kind of thing you mean to say you prefer? I do think there is a valid argument in favor of an approach like Warren's so that you can help ensure much of the benefit goes to those earning less as much as can be done given the reality that those who attend college are already more likely to be in more well-off positions to begin with.
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DoomTheGyarados
06/24/19 12:52:21 PM
#27:


Also I admit I don't know much about stocks but:

Sanders will also release a detailed roadmap -- centered on new taxes on Wall Street -- to raise the $2.2 trillion dollars necessary to pay for this program and his other college funding plans. It will include a 0.5% tax on stock trades (or 50 cents for every $100 worth of stock), a 0.1% fee on bonds, and a 0.005% fee on derivatives. Sanders believes that could raise more than $2.4 trillion dollars over the next ten years.

This just... seems like it is less "haha sticking it to big earners all the time" and more "so many trades happen in a year for so much money that literally nickel and diming every transaction is going to add up massively."

I don't see, with my mostly uninformed eye, how this spells doom for retirement accounts.
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Mr Lasastryke
06/24/19 12:56:45 PM
#28:


xp1337 posted...
To be frank, it's struck me as a kind of reverse "**** you, got mine"


i don't see it as "fuck you, got mine." i just want US students to pay a reasonable price for colleges. "fuck you, got mine" would be if i had said that nothing should be done about student debt.

FWIW, Warren's plan on this isn't a straight cancelling of all student debt, but it forgives $50k of it for all who earn under $100k (estimated to be around 42 million people). Is that the kind of thing you mean to say you prefer?


i'm not sure if i think warren's plan specifically is great but yeah, i find something like that preferable.
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LordoftheMorons
06/24/19 1:01:56 PM
#29:


You pay that tax every time you buy or sell stocks, and its a tax on the entire value of the stock rather than the profit. If you have index or mutual funds, a decent chunk of the component stocks will actually be bought or sold over the course of a year and will therefore be hit with the tax. Plus youd be hit whenever you rebalanced, etc. Furthermore it would likely collect a lot less money than intended because people would adjust their behavior to avoid the tax (which would also hurt market liquidity etc).
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neonreaper
06/24/19 1:04:54 PM
#30:


NFUN posted...
You know, it's really unfair to cure polio when so many people are already paralyzed


you guys should know better than to do stuff like this
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xp1337
06/24/19 1:06:41 PM
#31:


Mr Lasastryke posted...

i don't see it as "fuck you, got mine." i just want US students to pay a reasonable price for colleges. "fuck you, got mine" would be if i had said that nothing should be done about student debt.

Well, yeah, it's important that some means by which tuition rates can be brought under control is found as well so that this problem doesn't re-emerge again immediately afterwards.

I think that's a thornier issue - from a "how do you solve this with government policy? Can you even?" perspective - but student debt itself is still an issue either way.

red sox would argue, and not wholly without merit in this instance I admit, that absent some means to deal with tuition rates, any action taken to deal with student debts would just be priced in by colleges as a kind of government grant available to all/many people. Using Warren's plan as a hypothetical here since it gives us an exact number to work with - I doubt colleges would be so brazen to just up their rates by $50k to absorb the policy as "free money" for themselves but if tuition rates continue to inflate they may well get there on their own in time.

tl;dr: Student debt is only half the problem, with the other being tuition costs. They're obviously heavily interconnected, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't act on one if we can. Just know that the work isn't done if you accomplish that part of it.
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NFUN
06/24/19 1:10:24 PM
#32:


neonreaper posted...
NFUN posted...
You know, it's really unfair to cure polio when so many people are already paralyzed


you guys should know better than to do stuff like this

I won't engage with red sox but I will make fun of him
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HeroDelTiempo17
06/24/19 1:22:17 PM
#33:


xp1337 posted...
Using Warren's plan as a hypothetical here since it gives us an exact number to work with - I doubt colleges would be so brazen to just up their rates by $50k to absorb the policy as "free money" for themselves but if tuition rates continue to inflate they may well get there on their own in time.


Warren's plan includes free state college tuition, something Bernie also supports, I don't think this is that great a criticism if he's just splitting up the two parts to his plan based on what he thinks he can accomplish at once.

Edit: Although it seems Bernie is including that too in his plan and the headlines are just focusing on debt.
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xp1337
06/24/19 1:29:13 PM
#34:


HeroDelTiempo17 posted...
Warren's plan includes free state college tuition, something Bernie also supports, I don't think this is that great a criticism if he's just splitting up the two parts to his plan based on what he thinks he can accomplish at once.

Right, but then you have to ensure you keep state college tuition under control. A far more manageable task... but wouldn't this require the states to cooperate? Blue states likely wouldn't be a problem but red ones? As seen with the ACA and Medicaid expansion I think it's naive to assume you get them to enact it.

Ideally the people in those states would pressure their state governments to get onboard or vote them out for people who will... but... again, using Medicaid expansion as an example...
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red sox 777
06/24/19 1:34:49 PM
#35:


xp1337 posted...
HeroDelTiempo17 posted...
Warren's plan includes free state college tuition, something Bernie also supports, I don't think this is that great a criticism if he's just splitting up the two parts to his plan based on what he thinks he can accomplish at once.

Right, but then you have to ensure you keep state college tuition under control. A far more manageable task... but wouldn't this require the states to cooperate? Blue states likely wouldn't be a problem but red ones? As seen with the ACA and Medicaid expansion I think it's naive to assume you get them to enact it.

Ideally the people in those states would pressure their state governments to get onboard or vote them out for people who will... but... again, using Medicaid expansion as an example...


Actually, I think public college tuition right now is probably lower in red states than blue ones. California, for instance, has more or less abdicated funding the University of California system and told the regents to run it as a private university. The state provides less than 15% of the UC system's funding nowadays.
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HeroDelTiempo17
06/24/19 1:38:01 PM
#36:


I'm no expert but I feel like it depends on if it's cheaper to just send your kid to a state with free tuition. The government could assist in relocation costs. In that case they gain some leverage over states that opt-out while doing nothing to encourage students to stay. Currently that's done via lower tuition.
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red sox 777
06/24/19 1:42:01 PM
#37:


HeroDelTiempo17 posted...
I'm no expert but I feel like it depends on if it's cheaper to just send your kid to a state with free tuition. The government could assist in relocation costs. In that case they gain some leverage over states that opt-out while doing nothing to encourage students to stay. Currently that's done via lower tuition.


States require residency to qualify for in-state tuition.
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xp1337
06/24/19 1:44:21 PM
#38:


ftr, I'm in support of tackling this issue obviously. Philosophically, I think I align more with Warren's plan, but I'm just trying to stress that assuming either she or Sanders (or Castro, he has a plan like this too lol!) could get this through we can't relax and assume we've solved the problem, there would still be work to do.
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red sox 777
06/24/19 1:48:48 PM
#39:


I think you have to do both at the same time. Doing debt relief without putting measures in place to get tuition down is like bank bailouts - it just motivates the greedy institutions involved to continue and escalate their behavior. Like giving someone the drug they're addicted to in order to cure withdrawal symptoms.
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neonreaper
06/24/19 1:50:33 PM
#40:


NFUN posted...
neonreaper posted...
NFUN posted...
You know, it's really unfair to cure polio when so many people are already paralyzed


you guys should know better than to do stuff like this

I won't engage with red sox but I will make fun of him


I think it's a bad analogy and there's a lot of wonky handwaving in this topic about this subject - I would be mindful of that.

The root cause, from this topic, seems to be "some people signed for a loan and don't want to repay it" and not the value of what the loan paid for. You're acting like debt forgiveness will solve the problem and it won't, it will just increase the pool of people who aren't dealing with the problem.

It is a problem that you can have a young person with $100,000 in student loan debt. The root cause doesn't seem to follow - the solutions all seem to be having other people pay for it.
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Forceful_Dragon
06/24/19 2:07:29 PM
#41:


I think the issue is how we've fostered a system where freshmen entering college are bombarded with the idea that "it's okay to sign for that loan because everyone had student debt following them so it's no big deal".

And know that's the impression I was given, and if I had not known from my dad's experience with college debt that followed him into his 40s I would have seen the appeal.

Throw in the fact that student loan debt sticks to you more than to average debt, particularly if it's privately held rather than federal.

It's just a crappy situation.

.

But then yeah, ideally a solution would address the situation itself which is the proliferation of the loans and not just the ensuing debt.
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red sox 777
06/24/19 2:12:12 PM
#42:


Another idea is you create a list of schools which the Department of Education has determined do not provide a degree or education commensurate with what they are charging. You forgive student loans from attending those schools, and refuse to issue any more federal student loans to attend those schools.

Then people who are accepted to schools like that will think, maybe I shouldn't go here, the federal government won't loan people money to go here because they think a degree from here won't enable students to pay back the money. So I shouldn't get a private student loan and my parents shouldn't pay for it either - I'll go somewhere else.
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ChaosTonyV4
06/24/19 2:48:03 PM
#43:


Considering college should be free or affordable on a simple part-time job, this is a good plan from Bernie.

Now THIS, is a bad plan:

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/06/24/beto-orourke-war-tax-1377516?cid=apn
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HeroDelTiempo17
06/24/19 2:56:35 PM
#44:


So explain to me why Beto's plan is terrible because I just can't see it as a huge deal. From my understanding, it's an attempt to force accountability in the government by requiring Congress to approve wars, which would automatically trigger a tax. Of course no one wants to pay more taxes for wars. That's the point! But that's not a flashy narrative so he frames it (poorly) around veteran benefits.

Maybe that's a naive reading that wouldn't actually work, and the optics are definitely bad.
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ChaosTonyV4
06/24/19 3:01:15 PM
#45:


I didnt read that particular article, the one I read had the Google Amp and for some reason cutting it off the URL killed the link, so I found another one.

The one I read said that tax would only be levied on non-military families.

Which might have flown in 1942 when the country was radically transformed to support war, but in 2019, everyone not benefiting from war pays for the war is just about the worst take on the issue I can think of.
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HeroDelTiempo17
06/24/19 3:07:40 PM
#46:


Well yeah. The point is to force declarations of war to also require a widely unpopular tax to force the public (and therefore, their representatives benefitting from it) to think more critically about supporting war and warmongering policies.

There's other criticisms, like how our military spending is already out of control and could pay more for benefits, but at the very least the "war tax" doesn't actually seem to go to traditional military spending.
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ChaosTonyV4
06/24/19 3:16:37 PM
#47:


Ok hold up, I might have been tricked by a misleading article.

This aol one says the tax would only affect incomes over $200k.

https://www.aol.com/article/finance/2019/06/24/democrat-orourke-proposes-war-tax-on-affluent-us-families-without-military-members/23755481/

If war directly threatens the rich, it might actually help there be less war.

I might have come around.
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red sox 777
06/24/19 3:27:43 PM
#48:


The headline seemed bad, looks good (as with most taxes) if it's progressive based on income or wealth.
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HeroDelTiempo17
06/24/19 3:28:33 PM
#49:


From what I understand it's at all income levels but a progressive tax. Which seems okay in theory though it should be more progressive in that I don't think people in poverty should be paying it at all. Unclear if they'd be excluded.
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Nrrr
06/24/19 4:51:21 PM
#50:


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