Current Events > Japanese Learning General Topic Numero Tres

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apolloooo
06/25/19 7:22:36 AM
#1:


@Rimmer_Dall
@gunplagirl
@ProfessorKukui

i don't know who else to tag. nothing concrete to contribute yet. still reviewing nouns and adjective chapter till i learn few more kanjis and grasp the whole grammar on that part.

but the difference, is i can actually dechiper like a part of what characters said when watching anime. sometimes it is full sentence, sometimes a part of it. or at least i can sometimes assign them to what grammar rules i know. shit like this keeps me going cos it's entertaining.
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Rimmer_Dall
06/25/19 7:30:44 AM
#2:


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Rimmer_Dall
06/25/19 7:40:31 AM
#3:


@YonicBoom @Steve_Nick @M3sterybumper @Lunaaaa

Anyway, I finally finished reading Tokyo Ghoul. Don't know if I want to start Tokyo Ghoul:re yet.

I strongly recommend reading The Hobbit () as your first full novel in Japanese. It's shockingly easy.

UPAAxXQ
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apolloooo
06/25/19 8:00:09 AM
#4:


Thanks alot, dall.

Luna is actually my alt lol. I will check some of the youtube channels and those kanji references shoukd be useful in the near future.

I dont know about novels yet but It is surprising the hobbit is on the easier side, because lotr are at least intermediate at least in my experience in english.
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Rimmer_Dall
06/25/19 8:03:01 AM
#5:


apolloooo posted...
I dont know about novels yet but It is surprising the hobbit is on the easier side, because lotr are at least intermediate at least in my experience in english.

The Hobbit was written for children, so not that surprising if you think about it. I'm gonna try my hand at Lord of the Rings once I'm done with The Hobbit, and I'm expecting those to be a major challenge.
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davidg4l
06/25/19 8:10:27 AM
#6:


Tag. Gonna go through these materials when I have more free time.
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kirbymuncher
06/25/19 10:16:31 AM
#7:


gonna go totally against that recommendation and say you should read stuff actually written originally in the native language:

1) you don't have to worry about the potential of a poor translation. There are many bad jp->en translations so it follows that there would also be many bad en->jp translations

2) you get the satisfaction of being able to "access" something you normally wouldn't be able to
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Rimmer_Dall
06/25/19 10:57:35 AM
#8:


kirbymuncher posted...
gonna go totally against that recommendation and say you should read stuff actually written originally in the native language:

1) you don't have to worry about the potential of a poor translation. There are many bad jp->en translations so it follows that there would also be many bad en->jp translations

2) you get the satisfaction of being able to "access" something you normally wouldn't be able to

As someone who speaks Finnish, Swedish, and English completely fluently, and as someone who has read The Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, and the Harry Potter series in all three languages, I'm telling you that reading a work that you've already read in another language and already know the plot of is a great way to familiarize yourself in the new language with.

Books generally have far more professional translations and are far better localized than Crunchyroll subs, so there's not nearly as much need to worry about awkward phrasing.

And finally, reading a work that's been translated doesn't preclude you from reading works that are originally in Japanese.
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SauI_Goodman
06/25/19 10:58:11 AM
#9:


domo arigato mister roboto

domo
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kirbymuncher
06/25/19 11:46:17 AM
#10:


Rimmer_Dall posted...
And finally, reading a work that's been translated doesn't preclude you from reading works that are originally in Japanese.

Well, you can only read one thing at a time, so at least in some sense it does. Especially early on when reading is slow and it will take a while to progress from one work to another. I definitely agree that when you already know the plot it's a nice way to keep yourself from getting too lost but in that case why not pick something japanese that has been translated into english and you have already watched/read/played instead of the other way around?

Books probably get more professional translations than something like crunchyroll yes (although there are still many problems even with translations of novels!), but even then... why pick something that has gone through a transformative process, may contain errors, likely lacks nuance in many places, and is all-around almost certainly inferior to the original work when you can instead go with something that has none of these pitfalls
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Rimmer_Dall
06/25/19 12:19:38 PM
#11:


kirbymuncher posted...
but in that case why not pick something japanese that has been translated into english and you have already watched/read/played instead of the other way around?

What makes you think I don't do both?

kirbymuncher posted...
why pick something that has gone through a transformative process, may contain errors

Translation errors don't matter very much at all in a purely written medium, because you're not gonna have the original text in front of you to get confused by.

kirbymuncher posted...
and is all-around almost certainly inferior to the original work

You'd be surprised.

kirbymuncher posted...
when you can instead go with something that has none of these pitfalls

Because I like The Hobbit, I already know it's good, and I want to read it in Japanese.
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Steve Nick
06/25/19 4:09:48 PM
#12:


tag
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Steve Nick
06/25/19 4:37:09 PM
#13:


glad I could tag this thread without getting updates on when people in it now ^_^

Was getting updates on that other one for 6 months.
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gunplagirl
06/25/19 5:24:10 PM
#14:


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YonicBoom
06/26/19 12:20:05 PM
#15:


New readers should aspire to the likes of .

There are high quality stories there, and it's not ungodly difficult.
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apolloooo
06/26/19 12:41:36 PM
#16:


YonicBoom posted...
New readers should aspire to the likes of .

There are high quality stories there, and it's not ungodly difficult.

But there are 21 volumes dang. Looks interesting, where can i get it? Preferably digitally cos imporing books is expensive
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02fran
06/26/19 3:38:35 PM
#17:


ArticUNO
ZapDOES
MolTRDS
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apolloooo
06/27/19 12:13:42 PM
#18:


Ok, i have started delving into verb.

As someone here said, the language structure itself seems to be very simple, but that simplicity is alot unfamiliar to english speaker so it is kinda hard to appropriate.

For example verb particle is tricky.

seems straightforward enough. I am starting to get why japanese machine translation are so bad, compared to something like indonesia to english, which is mostly acceptable.
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Rimmer_Dall
06/27/19 6:46:24 PM
#19:


Started reading Vagabond. Good shit. Got over 600 pages in before I even noticed.
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kirbymuncher
06/27/19 7:35:08 PM
#20:


Rimmer_Dall posted...
I want to read it in Japanese.

the most important part, in the end. any sort of recommendations for easyness or vocab used or etc pale in comparison to just picking something you want to read since that's what'll keep you motivated
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MordecaiRocks
06/28/19 2:06:57 AM
#21:


I struggle memorizing just kana, I feel like I have no chance at memorizing Kanji
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apolloooo
06/28/19 2:31:42 AM
#22:


MordecaiRocks posted...
I struggle memorizing just kana, I feel like I have no chance at memorizing Kanji

I find somw kanji easier than katakana.

Hiragana is ezpc.

Katakana is fucking hard because everything looka the same
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Bad_Mojo
06/28/19 2:36:29 AM
#23:


I'm sure you all saw it, but I'm playing this game that helps out a lot -

https://store.steampowered.com/app/438270/Learn_Japanese_To_Survive_Hiragana_Battle/

$7 for 3 games and it's been helping me so much in a really fun way
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Rimmer_Dall
06/28/19 2:39:08 AM
#24:


apolloooo posted...
Katakana is fucking hard because everything looka the same

Some of the sans-serif fonts out there are just stupid in how they make look exactly the fucking same.
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MordecaiRocks
06/28/19 2:50:53 AM
#25:


apolloooo posted...
MordecaiRocks posted...
I struggle memorizing just kana, I feel like I have no chance at memorizing Kanji

I find somw kanji easier than katakana.

Hiragana is ezpc.

Katakana is fucking hard because everything looka the same

Yeah katakana is giving me trouble now. Kind of a dick move to not have and sound the same >.> And of course what Rimmer mentioned too

Bad_Mojo posted...
I'm sure you all saw it, but I'm playing this game that helps out a lot -

https://store.steampowered.com/app/438270/Learn_Japanese_To_Survive_Hiragana_Battle/

$7 for 3 games and it's been helping me so much in a really fun way


I might just ease my suffering and try out the katakana game in this series
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Dragonblade01
06/28/19 3:38:44 AM
#26:


I would just like to say about reading works translated into Japanese, it's not like you're losing language authenticity. You're still getting a native Japanese voice: That of the translator.
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apolloooo
06/29/19 12:01:27 PM
#27:


http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/complete/negativeverbs

Wow, vocabulary bomb. The rules isn't that much hard, but it is kinda alot to memorize either /u verb or /ru verbs and which words to add and remove to make the verb negative.
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Bad_Mojo
06/29/19 3:33:09 PM
#28:


My flash cards should be coming today, but I have a concert to go to and I think my package is going to be left of my porch for a long time unattended
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apolloooo
06/30/19 3:21:15 AM
#29:


http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/difference-between-wa-and-ga/

Damn, this explanation rocks. This is very basic but i just figured it out. I am going back to duolingo lessons while still slowly learning the basics of grammar. Now at least knowing the basic grammar makes example sentences in duolingo makes more sense.
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Snip-N-Snails
07/01/19 7:17:48 PM
#30:


lol the title made me laugh
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apolloooo
07/01/19 9:42:17 PM
#31:


Snip-N-Snails posted...
lol the title made me laugh

finally someone gets the joke
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02fran
07/03/19 7:05:17 PM
#32:


I did, I just spelled it wrong.
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apolloooo
07/03/19 9:20:20 PM
#33:


oh japanese you so silly

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-dewa-arimasen-and-janai-des

again, duolingo comment section is actually the most useful part of the damn app cos it dont explain anything. the guidetojapanese website taught me to use the "ja" duolingo use "de"
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YonicBoom
07/03/19 10:30:35 PM
#34:


Don't get too hung up on that stuff

There's a ton of ways to say that, but you will see them and understand what you're seeing. The tone carried by it will make sense in context, even if someone is using it ironically.
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apolloooo
07/03/19 11:39:55 PM
#35:


YonicBoom posted...
Don't get too hung up on that stuff

There's a ton of ways to say that, but you will see them and understand what you're seeing. The tone carried by it will make sense in context, even if someone is using it ironically.

true i guess. thanks
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apolloooo
07/05/19 8:10:51 AM
#36:


bump. not much progress since i have been just doing lessons on duolingo.

but i have been getting quite used to them, especially some of the simpler sentences.

and people weren't really kidding about how absurdly simple japanese grammar is, yet also absurdly complex because of the many forms it can take shape to say a single thing.

like if you translate stuff literally in english

"gohan wo taberu masu"

this rice, i am going to do something with it. eat.

"nihon wa kirei desu"

i am going to talk about japan. beautiful.

these structure is pretty much the basic of japanese sentences. if i got it right, japanese don't really have subjects or objects stuff in an english sense (and indonesian) it is just noun, then the particle, then the adjective, or verb then you just dechiper the meaning by the context, either situation, formality, and the people involved in the conversation.

what made me confused at the beginning is why subject often "skipped" in a sentence. because you know it by knowing the context.

like this example:





the last sentence, without context, you might be thinking it's weird because the person state themself as tasty, but they are talking about pizza because the context was previously established during the beginning of the conversation.

fun !
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Rimmer_Dall
07/05/19 8:40:24 AM
#37:


apolloooo posted...
"gohan wo taberu masu"

tabe masu. When using masu form you need to attach the masu to the verb stem.
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apolloooo
07/05/19 8:47:04 AM
#38:


Rimmer_Dall posted...
apolloooo posted...
"gohan wo taberu masu"

tabe masu. When using masu form you need to attach the masu to the verb stem.

ah i see. thanks
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#39
Post #39 was unavailable or deleted.
Dragonblade01
07/07/19 5:57:00 AM
#40:


A friend turned me on to a really good website for reading Japanese that gives you a lot of reading practice and lets you highlight any individual word to get the reading and meaning. There's also an extension that lets you do the same for any site with Japanese text.

https://www.japanese.io
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apolloooo
07/07/19 10:30:28 AM
#41:


Dragonblade01 posted...
A friend turned me on to a really good website for reading Japanese that gives you a lot of reading practice and lets you highlight any individual word to get the reading and meaning. There's also an extension that lets you do the same for any site with Japanese text.

https://www.japanese.io

That looks great
Thanks.

Taking a break on weekend like usual.
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kirbymuncher
07/07/19 10:36:51 AM
#42:


I've been using a similar mouseover based dictionary extension for years, it's called rikaikun on chrome and I think rikaichan on firefox? This site looks neat since it comes with a bunch of reading stuff although that's personally kinda excessive for me I can find enough jp stuff to read on my own time <_<

not a big fan of this one trying to parse word boundaries itself and highlight the entire "word" when you mouseover any part of it. In my experience auto parsers like this tend to make a lot of mistakes and it's much better to have one that treats wherever you mouseover as the "start" of the word and then parse from there. This does maybe make it a little harder to use since you have to comprehend the word boundaries yourself (or at least mouse around until you find them) but I think it's better than trusting the parser
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Dragonblade01
07/07/19 10:53:59 AM
#43:


I haven't done much extensive testing on the word parsing itself. I've tried a few NHK articles and it seemed to work well. Although, if it starts getting into more flowering prose, I don't know how well it'll hold up. I just really like that it has a collection of reading material all in one place.
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apolloooo
07/08/19 8:51:02 AM
#44:


Okay, telling time seems simple enough. It seems duolingo just use time to teach about numbers too which I already know because my basic knowledge in mandarin. I will probably skip these chapters using those ruby things
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apolloooo
07/08/19 9:02:24 AM
#45:


Okay the time 2 lesson actually have something new. Like how to use
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kirbymuncher
07/08/19 11:26:03 AM
#46:


https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/90890557722722304/597766600761933824/L3cgx8d.png
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apolloooo
07/10/19 3:59:22 AM
#47:


i have been fiddling with the japanese .io site.

damn it's awesome. perform buttery smooth on mobile too
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apolloooo
07/11/19 8:12:56 AM
#48:


is it okay to skip writing practice? i dunno. i feel like i should do it, but i am too lazy to actually take a pen and paper.

i am at the point where i recognize at least 2 dozens kanji, but i can't really write it if i am asked to. but if you show me, i usually can tell what they mean and how they are spelled
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Rimmer_Dall
07/11/19 8:15:07 AM
#49:


apolloooo posted...
is it okay to skip writing practice?

Yes. Save that for when you want to learn to write, because it's an absolutely humongous timesink.
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apolloooo
07/11/19 8:54:11 AM
#50:


Rimmer_Dall posted...
apolloooo posted...
is it okay to skip writing practice?

Yes. Save that for when you want to learn to write, because it's an absolutely humongous timesink.

yeah. as far as reading/speaking i think i got it. plus japanese pronounciation is almost identical to indonesian. hell i think it is easier speaking japanese than english for me.

compared to mandarin, which is a pain in the ass to get the pronounciation right.
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