Current Events > Do you think Sephiroth... FF7 SPOILERS

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Veggeta X
06/26/19 11:23:50 AM
#1:


Do you think he was weak minded? Two things you can take from his transformation:

1. As powerful as he is, he was weak minded and succumb to Jenova's influence and misunderstood what his true purpose was to falsely give himself an agenda.

2. He was not weak minded. This proves that no matter how strong a person can be, been put through a hellish experience will break anyone.

Thoughts? Comments? Opinions?
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DevsBro
06/26/19 11:26:24 AM
#2:


All villains are weak tbh.
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Veggeta X
06/26/19 11:29:51 AM
#4:


Godnorgosh posted...
The rational thing for him to do imo would have been to team up with AVALANCHE to destroy Shinra. Destroy their headquarters, kill Hojo, call it a day.

Well he just learned that he was a science experiment. The source of his powers and where he came from and who his people were. I mean, he understood a lot of it wrong but yeah.
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mach25687
06/26/19 11:30:20 AM
#5:


I'm more surprise of Shinra not confiscating all those books about their experiment early on or straight up burning them.
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Veggeta X
06/26/19 11:31:30 AM
#6:


mach25687 posted...
I'm more surprise of Shinra not confiscating all those books about their experiment early on or straight up burning them.

I think Shinra didn't know much about it, it was mainly Hojo's secret Stache.
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hollow_shrine
06/26/19 11:39:45 AM
#8:


Godnorgosh posted...
The rational thing for him to do imo would have been to team up with AVALANCHE to destroy Shinra. Destroy their headquarters, kill Hojo, call it a day.

I don't think Avalanche exists while he's still alive.

Also, Sephiroth isn't actually trying to reclaim the planet from Shinra as one of last surviving Cetra. In believing that, he's at least as delusional as Cloud running around believing he's Zack.

And on topic, it's not a question of mental fortitude; his will is not his own. There's an alien parasite running through his veins making him see what it wants him to see and creatively editing his memories to give him to motivation to accomplish its ends. Cloud has it too (and it's thoroughly scrambling his brain), but it might be worse for Sephiroth since he got infected in the womb and there's no real telling where the human ends and the Jenova cells begin. Cloud basically had to get an deep enema from the lifestream to cure himself of Jenova infection, and it still didn't get everything. Compared to that, Sephiroth is 100% fucked.
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Veggeta X
06/26/19 11:51:52 AM
#9:


Iono, Sephiroth never gave off the vibe that he was under Jenova's control. He gave more of a vibe that he was just loyally serving his mother. Cloud on the other hand showed obvious signs of being manipulated and amnesia.
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hollow_shrine
06/26/19 12:13:27 PM
#11:


Veggeta X posted...
Iono, Sephiroth never gave off the vibe that he was under Jenova's control. He gave more of a vibe that he was just loyally serving his mother. Cloud on the other hand showed obvious signs of being manipulated and amnesia.

That might be because Sephiroth's exposure to Jenova cells is way higher than Cloud. Cloud still has whoever he was pre-exposure floating around in his head. Sephiroth doesn't because of Hojo and his mad scientist BS.

His 'mother' = Jenova

His mother, Jenova, was never a member of the Cetra. She's a shapeshifting alien, like Lavos (from Chrono Trigger) or the monster from the John Carpenter's The Thing. (supposedly one of the inspirations for her character, including her boss sprite).

For reference look at this iconic scene of this dog exploding into a tentacle monster:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_C9JbK7slrk" data-time="&start=75


His 'mother,' Jenova, tries to infiltrate the Cetra and overcome them through subterfuge. But they eventually see through her and kick her out, freezing it in a glacier somewhere for Hojo to discover 1000 years later or something.

His 'mother' exists only as the Jenova cells in his body, but by the time he starts to crack during the Niebelheim incident, Jenova's already driving him around like a sock puppet, telling him lies about his heritage (he ain't no Ancient; she's lying) and encouraging him to find the Black Materia the Ancients took from her and use it to 'reclaim' the Earth from the usurpers (the actual Ancients and later their descendants, modern humanity). Sephiroth kind of never had a chance.
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Veggeta X
06/26/19 12:15:32 PM
#12:


hollow_shrine posted...
His mother, Jenova, was never a member of the Cetra. She's a shapeshifting alien, like Lavos (from Chrono Trigger) or the monster from the John Carpenter's The Thing. (supposedly one of the inspirations for her character, including her boss sprite).

This is where he misunderstood his true origins giving himself a fake agenda. Was it himself? That's a nice theory, though. I'm more inclined to believe he has free will.
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Turbam
06/26/19 12:19:31 PM
#13:


Do you think he was an incel too?
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hollow_shrine
06/26/19 12:27:46 PM
#14:


Veggeta X posted...
hollow_shrine posted...
His mother, Jenova, was never a member of the Cetra. She's a shapeshifting alien, like Lavos (from Chrono Trigger) or the monster from the John Carpenter's The Thing. (supposedly one of the inspirations for her character, including her boss sprite).

This is where he misunderstood his true origins giving himself a fake agenda. Was it himself? That's a nice theory, though. I'm more inclined to believe he has free will.

Well the last living Ancient who knew all of this was Ifalna, Aeris's mother. She dies and most of the knowledge goes with her (though Ancients can apparently pass memories to each other beyond the grave). In her (and Professor Gast's) home, you can watch tapes she made with Gast explaining what Jenova is and why it wasn't an ancient but an invading threat.

It's unclear how much of this Sephiroth knows. In the basement of Shinra mansion it's reasonable to believe some of Gast's notes would be there for Sephiroth's reading, since he was second only to Hojo in researching all this and they were lab mates. But we don't know.

Still Sephiroth referring to Jenova as 'mother,' and disclosing that she's apparently talking to him is a huge red flag. After the events at the Northern Crater we figure out that the 'mother' in Sephiroth's mind has apparently been talking to Cloud too, and occasionally possessing him.
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Zaltera
06/26/19 1:22:48 PM
#15:


After falling into the Lifestream, Sephiroth absorbed an enormous amount of knowledge concerning the world and history. He eventually became able to bend Jenova to his will and used it to manipulate Cloud and the rest of the clones into acquiring and delivering the black materia for his plan.

Sephiroth was in control.
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DevsBro
06/26/19 1:42:18 PM
#16:


Zaltera posted...
After falling into the Lifestream, Sephiroth absorbed an enormous amount of knowledge concerning the world and history. He eventually became able to bend Jenova to his will and used it to manipulate Cloud and the rest of the clones into acquiring and delivering the black materia for his plan.

Sephiroth was in control.

This, plus the other way around doesn't make sense for the structure of the story anyway. If Jenova were in charge and Seph her pawn, why would Seph be the final boss instead of Jenova? I guess it could work ifwe had further indication that Seph had completely lost it (a la X6 Sigma) after Jenova's defeat but we don't see any indication that it affected him at all.

Of course we also don't see any indication that Jenova was ultimately destroyed then either.
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KLouD_KoNNeCteD
06/26/19 1:49:44 PM
#17:


Turbam posted...
Do you think he was an incel too?

Sephiroth was totally jealous that Cloud was banging Aeris, Tifa, and Barrett while Sephiroth sat at home playing with his sword.
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hollow_shrine
06/26/19 2:13:34 PM
#18:


DevsBro posted...
Zaltera posted...
After falling into the Lifestream, Sephiroth absorbed an enormous amount of knowledge concerning the world and history. He eventually became able to bend Jenova to his will and used it to manipulate Cloud and the rest of the clones into acquiring and delivering the black materia for his plan.

Sephiroth was in control.

This, plus the other way around doesn't make sense for the structure of the story anyway. If Jenova were in charge and Seph her pawn, why would Seph be the final boss instead of Jenova? I guess it could work ifwe had further indication that Seph had completely lost it (a la X6 Sigma) after Jenova's defeat but we don't see any indication that it affected him at all.

Of course we also don't see any indication that Jenova was ultimately destroyed then either.

Official 'Word of God' agrees with you two, that Sephiroth somehow maintained his autonomy here. I still think the inverse theory, that Jenova has been controlling him from jump, is better supported by the plot of the game itself. He's not acting in ways one ought were they last surviving Cetra (like Aeris, post Temple of the Ancients); but he's executing Jenova's original plan to a T, down to draining the lifeforce of the planet and seeking out other worlds to infect with Jenova.

Worse, I think it's kind of obvious. The Ancients went to great lengths to seal away Jenova's Black Materia, and know how to summon Holy to deflect Meteor, and they knew it from experience because they had already defeated Jenova in the past. Every action Sephiroth takes in the main game has him staring down a lot of circumstantial evidence that contradicts the story he believes about himself, Jenova, and their heritage. But he's still 100%, committed to a plan that isn't really even his. And he's been that way ever since his trigger snapped in the basement of Shinra Mansion.
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Veggeta X
06/26/19 2:15:37 PM
#19:


Sephiroth's transformation is exactly extreme and delusional. The main question still exists, though. Is it because he was weak minded or no matter who the person they would have also broke?
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Ricemills
06/26/19 2:37:04 PM
#20:


from what I remember, Sephiroth took over the control and make Jenova his bitch.
he wanted to absorb lifestream all for himself to attain godhood, and that means Jenova ain't getting any.
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Veggeta X
06/26/19 2:42:06 PM
#21:


Ricemills posted...
he wanted to absorb lifestream all for himself to attain godhood, and that means Jenova ain't getting any.

No. He wanted what Jenova wanted. They are both alien viruses. They want to keep infecting new planets. Sephiroth literally said this in Advent Children:

What I want, Cloud, is to sail the darkness of the cosmos with this planet as my vessel, just as my mother did long ago. Then one day we'll find a new planet. And on its soil, we'll create a shining future.

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OmegaShinkai
06/26/19 2:44:31 PM
#22:


If Sephiroth was canonically in control the whole time, and while he was in the Lifestream learned about the true nature of Jenova and that he wasn't an Ancient, shouldn't he have also been able to figure out who his real mother was and that Hojo was responsible for everything, including the death of Prof. Ghast?
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Strider102
06/26/19 3:08:47 PM
#23:


Wasn't it established after fearing he was a monster he had a mental breakdown, and the research he did just made it worse giving Jenova an opening to completely influence him?

I wouldn't say he was weak minded. Fear, anger and hatred are a bad combination. It was bad enough he saw what happens when people are infused with Mako, but combine that with his knowledge of Jenova and the fact that in his research he learns Jenova is his "mother" (omitting everything with Lucretia) that would cause anyone to breakdown.
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Veggeta X
06/26/19 3:10:40 PM
#24:


Strider102 posted...
Wasn't it established after fearing he was a monster he had a mental breakdown, and the research he did just made it worse giving Jenova an opening to completely influence him?

I wouldn't say he was weak minded. Fear, anger and hatred are a bad combination. It was bad enough he saw what happens when people are infused with Mako, but combine that with his knowledge of Jenova and the fact that in his research he learns Jenova is his "mother" (omitting everything with Lucretia) that would cause anyone to breakdown.

So you think it's the latter. Nice. Anyone else?
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hollow_shrine
06/26/19 3:12:24 PM
#25:


Veggeta X posted...
Sephiroth's transformation is exactly extreme and delusional. The main question still exists, though. Is it because he was weak minded or no matter who the person they would have also broke?

Well, Word of God is, he wanted it and claimed Jenova's crusade as his own.

Aside from him, the only other person who might have survived Jenova exposure without too much trauma is Red XIII, and he's clearly not human. It's unclear whether or not Vincent was infected. Regardless, he's clearly taken some time to come to terms with himself. Everyone else though is going it. That includes the hooded figures (Hojo's failed experiments), who are all Jenova drones. It even includes several members of SOLDIER who underwent Mako treatment and got the super strength or whatever, only to turn into monsters later down the line.
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Lairen
06/26/19 3:14:54 PM
#26:


He should have developed some memorable lines and a personality.
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Veggeta X
06/26/19 3:14:55 PM
#27:


Well the Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo seemed to have taken the Mako exposure well. They didn't even develop Geostigma.
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darkphoenix181
06/26/19 3:22:22 PM
#28:


He was weak minded.

And it is obvious why.

He had no purpose really.
He just existed and served his creators.

Then he realized what he was and a real purpose formed.

That is, having a purpose is too alluring to someone without a purpose.

This is also Cloud's struggle before his breakdown.
He has no purpose. Becomes a mercenary just cause.

Tifa helps him remember his true self and find purpose through his bonds like an anime.
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darkphoenix181
06/26/19 3:29:04 PM
#29:


Sephiroth was 100% in control

Don't buy into that theory about Jenova manipulating him.

See, HE was in the crater NOT Jenova.
Think about that for a second.

Jenova would not become the planet, Sephiroth would. Jenova instead was used as a bodyguard.

In truth, it is more likely to say, he is a Jenova.
He is truly her son and carrying out the purpose of his own speicies, but he is no more manipulated than you are when you want to bang a hot girl.
Still, even a man can overcome his impulses and so could Sephiroth.
He chose to embrace them because why not? He had no other purpose in existing.
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hollow_shrine
06/26/19 3:33:55 PM
#30:


Veggeta X posted...
Well the Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo seemed to have taken the Mako exposure well. They didn't even develop Geostigma.

Only normal humans developed Geostigma. Geostigma was an immune reaction to our bodies purging themselves of Jenova's influence after the events of the first game. Sadly, for a lot of people the cure was more fatal than the disease.

The three Chrysalis (Kadaj's crew, so named because they're all larval forms are Jenova!Sephiroth) are all like Cloud. Infused with large amounts of Mako and exposed to Jenova cells. Unlike Cloud, their exposures were a lot less controlled. So they're all stark raving mad, emotional timebombs (sis clock those temper tantrums, these are some super-powered toddlers ), and deeply under Jenova's thrall. Worse still, as Jenova's influence on the world wanes, they're dying. Thus their reckless suicide mission.
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CapnMuffin
06/26/19 3:39:10 PM
#31:


Its possible you can meld the theories... and Jenova was actually what Sephiroth was on some other planet: a strong willed and powerful being that the planet virus latches on to and adopts their persona. So basically Jenova was a woman on another planet that had big dreams and strong willthe Jenova entity saw this as the best chance at survival and multiplication and allows itself to be used by her. Fast forward to traveling the cosmos to this world... same thing happens. Virus attempts to spread and eventually finds its ideal avatar.
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darkphoenix181
06/26/19 3:42:53 PM
#32:


CapnMuffin posted...
Its possible you can meld the theories... and Jenova was actually what Sephiroth was on some other planet: a strong willed and powerful being that the planet virus latches on to and adopts their persona. So basically Jenova was a woman on another planet that had big dreams and strong willthe Jenova entity saw this as the best chance at survival and multiplication and allows itself to be used by her. Fast forward to traveling the cosmos to this world... same thing happens. Virus attempts to spread and eventually finds its ideal avatar.


That is not really melding theories but canon.

Sephiroth is basically a new Jenova born on gaia.

If he succeeds he would probably infect new planets.

The only shaky part would be her starting as a woman.

It is possible and probable that there are more Jenovas. Maybe she has a sister out there somewhere.
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Veggeta X
06/26/19 3:44:00 PM
#33:


Sephiroth would be claiming other planets in the name of Jenova, though. I don't think Jenova did such things as a loyal service...
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hollow_shrine
06/26/19 3:47:24 PM
#34:


Veggeta X posted...
Sephiroth would be claiming other planets in the name of Jenova, though. I don't think Jenova did such things as a loyal service...

She did it to eat. And he's likely doing to to eat as well. Since his actual human corpse is still hanging out in the Northern Crater frozen in some materia, whatever he is now is likely made out of the same organism Jenova was.
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darkphoenix181
06/26/19 3:49:13 PM
#35:


Veggeta X posted...
Sephiroth would be claiming other planets in the name of Jenova, though. I don't think Jenova did such things as a loyal service...


Why you say this?

I don't recall him doing things in the name of Jenova.

He uttered a desire for revenge for what people did to his mom. That is not the same thing.
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Strider102
06/26/19 4:32:13 PM
#36:


Didn't Genesis have more or less the same ambitions as Post Breakdown Sephiroth, just different paths to do that? Same with Hojo, except he wanted to make Sephiroth stronger so he could accomplish his goals who later became kind of a parasite himself when he gained control of Weiss, who wanted to unleash another WEAPON which would carry the Jenova "infection" in the lifestream to another world?

Genesis, Sephiroth, and Weiss all had a god complex that occured after their exposure to Jenova cells. That's the trait they all have in common, all three develop a god complex, but each take different paths towards their goals.
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hollow_shrine
06/26/19 4:57:26 PM
#37:


Strider102 posted...
Didn't Genesis have more or less the same ambitions as Post Breakdown Sephiroth, just different paths to do that? Same with Hojo, except he wanted to make Sephiroth stronger so he could accomplish his goals who later became kind of a parasite himself when he gained control of Weiss, who wanted to unleash another WEAPON which would carry the Jenova "infection" in the lifestream to another world?

Genesis, Sephiroth, and Weiss all had a god complex that occured after their exposure to Jenova cells. That's the trait they all have in common, all three develop a god complex, but each take different paths towards their goals.

It's that commonality that I think supports the Jenova control theory. Whatever their stated motivations, their end goals are always the same. Jenova (or her off-spring) consumes the lifeforce of the planet and then hops to the next planet to continue the cycle.
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darkphoenix181
06/26/19 5:03:15 PM
#38:


Strider102 posted...
Didn't Genesis have more or less the same ambitions as Post Breakdown Sephiroth, just different paths to do that? Same with Hojo, except he wanted to make Sephiroth stronger so he could accomplish his goals who later became kind of a parasite himself when he gained control of Weiss, who wanted to unleash another WEAPON which would carry the Jenova "infection" in the lifestream to another world?

Genesis, Sephiroth, and Weiss all had a god complex that occured after their exposure to Jenova cells. That's the trait they all have in common, all three develop a god complex, but each take different paths towards their goals.


Idk if using compilation to make sense of the story works.
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Strider102
06/26/19 5:21:26 PM
#39:


darkphoenix181 posted...
Strider102 posted...
Didn't Genesis have more or less the same ambitions as Post Breakdown Sephiroth, just different paths to do that? Same with Hojo, except he wanted to make Sephiroth stronger so he could accomplish his goals who later became kind of a parasite himself when he gained control of Weiss, who wanted to unleash another WEAPON which would carry the Jenova "infection" in the lifestream to another world?

Genesis, Sephiroth, and Weiss all had a god complex that occured after their exposure to Jenova cells. That's the trait they all have in common, all three develop a god complex, but each take different paths towards their goals.


Idk if using compilation to make sense of the story works.


If we're going with the notion that Sephiroth was entirely in control and weak minded we have to look at the other characters, whether they're liked or not.

I had to look up what the point of Genesis was and it amounted to stopping the degradation of those with Jenova cells.

It's interesting how the one who directly benefits from Genesis, Sephiroth, and Weiss's actions is Jenova. Not only that but Jenova is referred to as a parasite. What do parasites do? They influence and in some situations control their host.
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CreekCo
06/26/19 5:34:46 PM
#40:


Good thread
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darkphoenix181
06/26/19 5:46:47 PM
#41:


Strider102 posted...
darkphoenix181 posted...
Strider102 posted...
Didn't Genesis have more or less the same ambitions as Post Breakdown Sephiroth, just different paths to do that? Same with Hojo, except he wanted to make Sephiroth stronger so he could accomplish his goals who later became kind of a parasite himself when he gained control of Weiss, who wanted to unleash another WEAPON which would carry the Jenova "infection" in the lifestream to another world?

Genesis, Sephiroth, and Weiss all had a god complex that occured after their exposure to Jenova cells. That's the trait they all have in common, all three develop a god complex, but each take different paths towards their goals.


Idk if using compilation to make sense of the story works.


If we're going with the notion that Sephiroth was entirely in control and weak minded we have to look at the other characters, whether they're liked or not.

I had to look up what the point of Genesis was and it amounted to stopping the degradation of those with Jenova cells.

It's interesting how the one who directly benefits from Genesis, Sephiroth, and Weiss's actions is Jenova. Not only that but Jenova is referred to as a parasite. What do parasites do? They influence and in some situations control their host.

Strider102 posted...
Not only that but Jenova is referred to as a parasite. What do parasites do? They influence and in some situations control their host.


Well the wiki says she is a virus.
Her cells take over those infected making them want to join in reunion, turning them into monsters and also taking form of loved ones to spread infection.

This is all irrelevant to sephiroth however:

Due to the Jenova cells present in his body, the Lifestream couldn't absorb Sephiroth completely. His will remained intact and learned everything about Jenova, the Cetra, and the circle of life, formulating a plan to be reborn as a god to rule the Planet. Sephiroth's will overpowered Jenova's, and he gained the ability to exert his influence on those infected with the creature's cells, thus facilitating his plan to have them bring to him the Black Materia that would allow him to use the ultimate black magic spell.
Five years after the Nibelheim Incident, Sephiroth puts his plans into action by taking control of Jenova's main body in Shinra Headquarters, morphing it into a vessel in his likeness, murdering soldiers until reaching the top of the building and assassinating President Shinra.



https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Jenova

I guess you can say he had a strong will, thus he could resist her.
I still say he is mentally weak however, because his plan was immature.
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hollow_shrine
06/26/19 5:56:03 PM
#42:


^ That's the official canon explanation for what's going on here, sure.
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Ricemills
06/27/19 12:03:09 AM
#43:


Veggeta X posted...
Ricemills posted...
he wanted to absorb lifestream all for himself to attain godhood, and that means Jenova ain't getting any.

No. He wanted what Jenova wanted. They are both alien viruses. They want to keep infecting new planets. Sephiroth literally said this in Advent Children:

What I want, Cloud, is to sail the darkness of the cosmos with this planet as my vessel, just as my mother did long ago. Then one day we'll find a new planet. And on its soil, we'll create a shining future.


Advent Children ruining FF7 lore, as usual.
https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Jenova
Cloud and his party chase "Sephiroth" across the Planet unaware it is Jenova under Sephiroth's control.

Cloud relinquishes the Black Materia, allowing Sephiroth to summon Meteor. Sephiroth's plan is to wound the Planet so greatly the Lifestream would be summoned to heal the area allowing him to absorb it and become a god-like being.

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