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Aaantlion
09/16/19 2:12:40 AM
#252:


ParanoidObsessive posted...
I'd strongly disagree, but that's mostly because I've seen Batman Returns.


Then perhaps you need to see it again.

ParanoidObsessive posted...
Burton: "Anybody that knows me knows I do not read comic books"

Smith: "Which, to me, explains fucking Batman."

Though I suspect what Smith was really thinking about was the clusterfuck that was Burton's Superman attempt (which actually involved Kevin Smith). But since that never came out and no one else ever got to see it, it didn't make as effective a "gotcha".


Kevin Smith being snarky, that's a refreshing change. At any rate, I have more faith in Burton than Smith to make any movie, excluding maybe a lackluster stoner comedy.

ParanoidObsessive posted...
Yes, but "its own way" is "This is such a phenomenal clusterfuck of terrible movie that it comes out the other side and becomes an awesome unintentional comedy". Which isn't the best look unless your master plan is to kill one of your most lucrative franchises completely dead for nearly a decade.


100% worth the sacrifice, unlike Spidey 3 which was just flat-out bad regardless.

ParanoidObsessive posted...
And let's be honest, if Nolan's film hadn't been... well, Nolan's film, it probably would have stayed dead. It would have been less Batman Begins and more Superman Returns.


I hated Begins (and still do), but if we had to wade through Begins to get TDK, I'd say it was worth it. And even TDKR is passable on repeat viewings.

ParanoidObsessive posted...
Most fans of the Watchmen comic would disagree with you.


Oh, no, a comic book fan might be displeased by something! That can't happen! >_> Has there been a single movie where comic book fans didn't find fault? Having read both the graphic novel -- which I liked, other than some filler (especially the Black Freighter shit designed to pad out the comic's run) -- and seen the movie, I greatly favor the film. And sure, I can't remember if I read the comic before the movie so maybe part of it is having seen the film first.

ParanoidObsessive posted...
Hell, for that matter, I actually liked Watchmen (the movie), and I'd still disagree with you. It was a pretty flawed movie in a lot of ways, and a lot of that goes back to the source material itself. I'd be hard-pressed to rank it over anything in the MCU, other than maybe Thor: The Dark World. Or The Incredible Hulk.


Alright, I'll bite, what did you consider the flaws.

Otherwise, I've seen Thor 1 & 3, IM 1&2, Cap 1, Civil War, Doctor Strange, Avengers 1, and everything falls way, way short. Hell, I'd take Daredevil over Avengers.
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ParanoidObsessive
09/16/19 4:44:13 AM
#253:


Aaantlion posted...
Then perhaps you need to see it again.

Why would I do that? I have self-respect, I'm relatively fond of myself, and I'm not into masochism.



Aaantlion posted...
Kevin Smith being snarky, that's a refreshing change. At any rate, I have more faith in Burton than Smith to make any movie, excluding maybe a lackluster stoner comedy.

I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you - Kevin Smith's relative creative output took a huge dump after he discovered the joys of marijuana and started burning off 90% of his creative energy doing his podcast.

Though to be fair, Burton should be pretty good at making films regardless. He's been making the same one over and over again for 30 years, you'd think all that practice would pay off eventually.



Aaantlion posted...
100% worth the sacrifice

It really, really wasn't.



Aaantlion posted...
Oh, no, a comic book fan might be displeased by something! That can't happen!

If you have such disdain for the fans of a medium, to the point where you're willing to generalize and dismiss them all, why should anyone have a massive hard-on for adapting every single story the medium has ever shat out?



Aaantlion posted...
Has there been a single movie where comic book fans didn't find fault?

Quite a lot, actually. Mainly the good ones.

The trick is, you have to differentiate between the Simpson's Comic Book Guy type fans who will literally hate everything, and the more temperate comic fans who are more than willing to accept adaptations in cases where it feels like the adaptation captures the feel of the original comic even if it doesn't literally mimic every single facet of it.

For instance, most comic fans loved the first two X-Men movies, the first two Spider-Man movies, and most of the MCU movies. Aside from the pedants complaining that they gave Spider-Man organic web-shooters (even as the sane and rational fans accepted it worked better in the context of the movie), or the real dorks who whine because the X-Men were wearing black leather instead of yellow spandex (and again, movie compromises), most fans were cool with them.

It's in the same vein where most Tolkien fans loved the LotR movies.... while a lot of them hated the Hobbit movies. There's a difference between an adaptation coming from a place of love trying to maintain or even improve on the feel and essence of the original, and a half-assed adaptation coming from someone who's sort of stopped caring and is just trying to get the movie out on-time and under-budget while in the middle of a nervous breakdown.



Aaantlion posted...
I greatly favor the film.

You may be the first human being on the entire planet who has ever said those words in that context and actually mean them.



Aaantlion posted...
And sure, I can't remember if I read the comic before the movie so maybe part of it is having seen the film first.

I'm willing to say this is almost certainly the case.
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ParanoidObsessive
09/16/19 4:44:18 AM
#254:


Aaantlion posted...
Alright, I'll bite, what did you consider the flaws.

There are a number of scenes where the movie actually tries to adhere to the comic too literally and it messes with the pacing and flow a bit (ie, a case where adaptation has to compromise to the new medium and not just copy everything over verbatim). Ironically, the movie also hurts to some degree because some things happen that lack context because other scenes from the comic were cut for time (which goes back to a case of knowing what to cut and what NOT to cut - which is why you need to understand the material at more than a superficial level). All of that feels like it stems from Snyder only understanding the source on its most superficial level, and picking scenes because they "look cool" and not necessarily based on their importance to the overall story.

Other than that, the biggest flaw is that, in at least some cases, the acting performances aren't quite what they need to be. Rorschach, Manhattan, and the Comedian are great choices, Nite Owl is serviceable, but Ozymandias tends to play his role a bit too hammy for what he's supposed to be (which kind of makes his turn more obvious in advance), and Silk Spectre... is what it is.

The one HUGE complaint most comic fans have is changing the ending from the giant space squid to being Dr. Manhattan, which can fall apart if you really pick the logic apart - but that's the one criticism I actually tend to disagree with, because I think it works better aesthetically and is more concise that way, especially since I think the squid would look goofy as fuck on screen and would undercut a lot of the movie (again, a case where understanding when to deviate from the source and when not to helps the product - and one where Snyder actually did something positive.

It's not a BAD movie. But it's not really a GREAT movie, either. It sort of hovers around above average - though that admittedly probably ranks it higher in comic movie terms, because there've been so many stinkers.

And to be perfectly honest, it's the only comic movie Snyder has been involved with that wasn't painfully bad. Other than 300, of course, but that's helped by the fact that it's almost entirely visual with almost no subtle subtext whatsoever. Again, Zack likes visuals. The thinky stuff, not so much.

Actually, in retrospect, most of his non-comic movies are kind of terrible as well, so it kind of begs the question why someone would put him in charge of one of the most potentially profitable franchises in the history of film. I get that the original 300 was popular and made money, but that was a long time ago.



Aaantlion posted...
Otherwise, I've seen Thor 1 & 3, IM 1&2, Cap 1, Civil War, Doctor Strange, Avengers 1, and everything falls way, way short.

I'd easily rank every single one of those way, way, way, way higher than Watchmen. Except maybe IM2.

Hell, I'd also throw Avengers 3 and 4, GotG1 and 2, Cap 2, Ant-Man, 4 out of 7 Spider-Man films, 3 out of 7 X-Men films, and the first Blade into that mix. Maybe Blade 2, if I'm having a really good day and am in JUST the right mood.

About the only thing Watchmen really has going for it is high concept, but it's not even the film's own original concept, and it isn't really done all THAT well. Worse, what was an incredibly influential deconstruction 30 years ago feels a lot less meaningful after a thousand other stories have come along since doing the exact same premise. Which blunts some of its edge (which probably helped contribute to it ultimately bombing at the box office).

Again, it's not a BAD movie. But it's not really a GREAT movie, either. And ultimately, it's mostly just a forgettable movie.
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Korruptor
09/16/19 9:53:59 AM
#255:


You say that, but Burton's first two Batman films turned (the latter two he only produced, but I will say that B&R is fantastic in its own way) out great and, Zack Snyder's *other* work aside, I'd easily put Watchmen over ANYTHING in the MCU.


Burton didn't touch B&R.

First one was decent for the bastard child of TDKR and the Killing Joke, second one was some artsy project that Burton had too much creative control. Heck I don't remember anything from that movie other than Walken being Walken, Pfeiffer giving me a boner, and Devito playing as the Baron Harknoen from Dune.
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Revelation34
09/16/19 10:02:36 AM
#256:


Aaantlion posted...
Civil War,


That one had practically nothing to do with the comic. They just slapped the name on it to make the comic book fans think they would actually adapt it.
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I_Abibde
09/16/19 7:15:23 PM
#257:


This is one of those times at which I ask myself if I have a horse in this race, and I suspect that I do not, but I will at least respond to one of the points, that being that I enjoy the Watchmen movie, and I appreciate it as a good effort to adapt a source that is extremely resistant to adaptation. Then again, I am more forgiving of Snyder than most (... and, as I have stated here in the past, I think that BVS is great -- not a popular opinion, and I understand that).

I also like the Hobbit movies. Another unpopular opinion. Perhaps because I can only watch the Rankin-Bass adaptation so many times. ... I still wish the Great Goblin in the movies had boomed, "Who are these miserable persons?!" I miss that.

Or it might be that I generally do not have good taste. I also thought Superman Returns was great. *shrugs*
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Aaantlion
09/16/19 8:56:42 PM
#258:


Just saw a teaser for the new Excalibur. At first I was a little surprised to see that it looked more X-Men Blue than Excalibur (and then I recalled hearing somewhere -- probably here -- that they were going to do something like that), but then I was even more surprised to see Apocalypse there. Wtf? Since when is he a hero?

ParanoidObsessive posted...
Why would I do that? I have self-respect, I'm relatively fond of myself, and I'm not into masochism.


When was the last time you watched it, though? 1992? Are you sure your disdain will hold up against Devito's delightfully off-key performance as the Penguin and Chris Walker's deadpan delivery of "Bruce Wayne? Why are you dressed up like Batman?

ParanoidObsessive posted...
For instance, most comic fans loved the first two X-Men movies, the first two Spider-Man movies, and most of the MCU movies. Aside from the pedants complaining that they gave Spider-Man organic web-shooters (even as the sane and rational fans accepted it worked better in the context of the movie), or the real dorks who whine because the X-Men were wearing black leather instead of yellow spandex (and again, movie compromises), most fans were cool with them.


When X1 came out, I defended the leather outfits (which some friends called bondage gear or gimp suits), but XM: First Class kinda showed that they didn't have to go that spartan with the outfits. I will always prefer those organic web-shooters, though. Otherwise, idk. X1 I liked probably simply because it was X-Men, but I didn't like X2 (other than giving us a live-action Nightcrawler... but unfortunately they stupidly didn't want to recast (which would have been an easy recast) when the actor didn't want to bother with all that makeup again)

ParanoidObsessive posted...
You may be the first human being on the entire planet who has ever said those words in that context and actually mean them.


You know you trippin'
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ParanoidObsessive
09/17/19 11:31:57 AM
#259:


Aaantlion posted...
but then I was even more surprised to see Apocalypse there. Wtf? Since when is he a hero?

I don't actually know anything about the specific context of the book, but I DO know that there's a kid version of Apocalypse running around that has been generally presented as being a bit more "good", so it might be him instead. If so, he's probably going to call himself Genesis.

Or it might be an outgrowth of the Age of X-Man storyline where Apocalypse 60s-era hipster - maybe he "redeemed" himself in some way and is now a good guy, at least until the next writer comes along and decides to undo any and all character growth.



Aaantlion posted...
When was the last time you watched it, though? 1992? Are you sure your disdain will hold up against Devito's delightfully off-key performance as the Penguin and Chris Walker's deadpan delivery of "Bruce Wayne? Why are you dressed up like Batman?

But again, that's sort of confusing "good movie" with "so terrible it's fun to make fun of" movie.

I REALLY dislike DeVito's performance in Batman Returns, and Walken is kind of terrible. I'm also not a huge fan of Michelle Pfeiffer in general (and I really dislike the interpretation of her character in this), and I was never really that big a fan of Michael Keaton as Batman (though I do think he's good as Bruce Wayne). To some extent, I dislike Jack Nicholson's performance in the first movie in the same way, for the same reason - it feels like Nicholson doesn't even remotely give a fuck (because he didn't, and has admitted this - he also encouraged DeVito to not give a fuck and just cash the check as well).

I CAN enjoy those performances - in the same way I can enjoy Schwarzenegger as Mr. Freeze - as ridiculously over-the-top weirdos blatantly fucking around and devouring the scenery like giant hams. But that doesn't make the movie as a whole GOOD - to the contrary, it makes it worse.

Almost any bad movie can be enjoyable if you laugh at it or mock it in an MST3K sort of way, but it's still a bad movie.

Burton's movies are mostly just self-indulgent gothy weirdness that happens to have Batman in it.
It seems pretty clear that Burton finds Batman to be the least interesting part of those films.



Aaantlion posted...
When X1 came out, I defended the leather outfits (which some friends called bondage gear or gimp suits), but XM: First Class kinda showed that they didn't have to go that spartan with the outfits.

Yeah, but even there, they change them and justify them to some degree. In X1, the X-Men are trying to be more of a covert team, so the black looks more subdued and doesn't draw attention as much. Whereas in First Class, they're wearing tactical suits provided by the government as officially sanctioned operatives, so they're willing to be more visually obvious. But even there, the costumes have been changed from the comics - in the comics they're skin-tight spandex, but in the film they're more like certain types of sporting gear.

Ironically, the best possible scenario might be if they had suits made from the same material as the tactical outfits in First Class, but black like the X1 suits. Which would sort of make them look like Rumlow in Winter Soldier. That would make the most sense from a tactical perspective, and could be more easily passed off as government, military, or SWAT/police officers if they're trying to maintain a bit of subtlety (which you don't get as much from leather gimp suits).

But I've always been a proponent that most comic costumes don't look as good in 3D in a more realistic-style film. Even the MCU feels the need to adapt.

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The Wave Master
09/17/19 3:18:06 PM
#260:


They are rebooting "Saved by the Bell." With Zach Morris as the governor of California. Zach closes the poor schools.in California, and sends the poor kids to rich ass Bay Side High where hilarity ensues.

Well damn... I have to watch this with copious amounts of alcohol in my system, but I don't drink so now what.
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Revelation34
09/17/19 4:19:20 PM
#261:


The Wave Master posted...
They are rebooting "Saved by the Bell." With Zach Morris as the governor of California. Zach closes the poor schools.in California, and sends the poor kids to rich ass Bay Side High where hilarity ensues.

Well damn... I have to watch this with copious amounts of alcohol in my system, but I don't drink so now what.


Sounds like a terrible governor.
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Korruptor
09/17/19 5:44:46 PM
#262:


the governor that California deserves.
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Aaantlion
09/17/19 8:53:43 PM
#263:


Tech issues still >_>

ParanoidObsessive posted...
There are a number of scenes where the movie actually tries to adhere to the comic too literally and it messes with the pacing and flow a bit (ie, a case where adaptation has to compromise to the new medium and not just copy everything over verbatim). Ironically, the movie also hurts to some degree because some things happen that lack context because other scenes from the comic were cut for time (which goes back to a case of knowing what to cut and what NOT to cut - which is why you need to understand the material at more than a superficial level). All of that feels like it stems from Snyder only understanding the source on its most superficial level, and picking scenes because they "look cool" and not necessarily based on their importance to the overall story.


Not to sound like a broken record but... examples?

And does the fact that I followed things fine mean I must have read the comic first or the omissions/cut scenes just not as big a deal as people think?

ParanoidObsessive posted...
Other than that, the biggest flaw is that, in at least some cases, the acting performances aren't quite what they need to be. Rorschach, Manhattan, and the Comedian are great choices, Nite Owl is serviceable, but Ozymandias tends to play his role a bit too hammy for what he's supposed to be (which kind of makes his turn more obvious in advance), and Silk Spectre... is what it is.


I absolutely loved Ozy's portrayal.

ParanoidObsessive posted...
The one HUGE complaint most comic fans have is changing the ending


I also prefer the new ending, between the fact that it doesn't add new elements, Doctor Manhattan was *already* an established threatening entity, and the Ozy's attempts to alienate him also establish a motive for him going over the edge. Plus if he isn't established at the enemy, humanity has less incentive to unite since they'd assume he'd help them regardless.

The one change I kinda remember questioning is the group that's with him during the fake assassination attempt. I recall one version (possibly the film) having critics being killed in the crossfire while the other might have been more people whose deaths didn't benefit him.

ParanoidObsessive posted...
It's not a BAD movie. But it's not really a GREAT movie, either. It sort of hovers around above average - though that admittedly probably ranks it higher in comic movie terms, because there've been so many stinkers.

And to be perfectly honest, it's the only comic movie Snyder has been involved with that wasn't painfully bad. Other than 300, of course, but that's helped by the fact that it's almost entirely visual with almost no subtle subtext whatsoever. Again, Zack likes visuals. The thinky stuff, not so much.


I consider it a fantastic film and yes, Zack's visuals (and fight choreography) in Watchmen helped sell me on the film. I'm not so much a fan of 300, given it tends to drag on although it's stunningly beautiful at times.
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Korruptor
09/17/19 8:53:52 PM
#264:


Oh ff7 remake will have a classic mode, too bad seven eighths of the game is still missing.
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Aaantlion
09/17/19 9:57:28 PM
#265:


ParanoidObsessive posted...
I'd easily rank every single one of those way, way, way, way higher than Watchmen. Except maybe IM2.

Hell, I'd also throw Avengers 3 and 4, GotG1 and 2, Cap 2, Ant-Man, 4 out of 7 Spider-Man films, 3 out of 7 X-Men films, and the first Blade into that mix. Maybe Blade 2, if I'm having a really good day and am in JUST the right mood.

About the only thing Watchmen really has going for it is high concept, but it's not even the film's own original concept, and it isn't really done all THAT well. Worse, what was an incredibly influential deconstruction 30 years ago feels a lot less meaningful after a thousand other stories have come along since doing the exact same premise. Which blunts some of its edge (which probably helped contribute to it ultimately bombing at the box office).

Again, it's not a BAD movie. But it's not really a GREAT movie, either. And ultimately, it's mostly just a forgettable movie.


Well, I'm triggered.

Korruptor posted...
You say that, but Burton's first two Batman films turned (the latter two he only produced, but I will say that B&R is fantastic in its own way) out great and, Zack Snyder's *other* work aside, I'd easily put Watchmen over ANYTHING in the MCU.


Burton didn't touch B&R.

First one was decent for the bastard child of TDKR and the Killing Joke, second one was some artsy project that Burton had too much creative control. Heck I don't remember anything from that movie other than Walken being Walken, Pfeiffer giving me a boner, and Devito playing as the Baron Harknoen from Dune.


I thought Burton was still a producer on B&R? Or did they drop him altogether after Forever?

Revelation34 posted...
Aaantlion posted...
Civil War,


That one had practically nothing to do with the comic. They just slapped the name on it to make the comic book fans think they would actually adapt it.


None of the movies tie that much to the comics other than at a surface level. Plus the full story arc would take far too long to tell, involves too many characters (including ones they didn't have rights to), etc.

I_Abibde posted...
Or it might be that I generally do not have good taste. I also thought Superman Returns was great. *shrugs*


It was enjoyable. Man of Steel seemed the better film, but there wasn't as much joy to it.
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Aaantlion
09/17/19 10:04:26 PM
#266:


ParanoidObsessive posted...
I don't actually know anything about the specific context of the book, but I DO know that there's a kid version of Apocalypse running around that has been generally presented as being a bit more "good", so it might be him instead. If so, he's probably going to call himself Genesis.


Oo

That'd be kinda weird, considering that there already was a Genesis menacing the X-teams. (Also, between Genesis and Exodus, I have to wonder what other Bible books they're going to crib for names. Maybe Proverbs will be next -- a mutant who chants evil sutras!)

ParanoidObsessive posted...
But again, that's sort of confusing "good movie" with "so terrible it's fun to make fun of" movie.


Don't even play. This isn't B&R or even Forever (although Jim Carrey captured at least some of Gorshin's manic energy, so I've come to appreciate that movie more over the years)

ParanoidObsessive posted...
I REALLY dislike DeVito's performance in Batman Returns


GASP!

ParanoidObsessive posted...
I CAN enjoy those performances - in the same way I can enjoy Schwarzenegger as Mr. Freeze - as ridiculously over-the-top weirdos blatantly fucking around and devouring the scenery like giant hams. But that doesn't make the movie as a whole GOOD - to the contrary, it makes it worse.

Almost any bad movie can be enjoyable if you laugh at it or mock it in an MST3K sort of way, but it's still a bad movie.


B&R was a great throwback to the campier Batman age. The *only* problem with it is when it actually tried to get serious (specifically the Batgirl & Alfred stuff), which really killed the flow.
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Aaantlion
09/17/19 10:31:50 PM
#267:


ParanoidObsessive posted...
Yeah, but even there, they change them and justify them to some degree. In X1, the X-Men are trying to be more of a covert team, so the black looks more subdued and doesn't draw attention as much. Whereas in First Class, they're wearing tactical suits provided by the government as officially sanctioned operatives, so they're willing to be more visually obvious. But even there, the costumes have been changed from the comics - in the comics they're skin-tight spandex, but in the film they're more like certain types of sporting gear.

Ironically, the best possible scenario might be if they had suits made from the same material as the tactical outfits in First Class, but black like the X1 suits. Which would sort of make them look like Rumlow in Winter Soldier. That would make the most sense from a tactical perspective, and could be more easily passed off as government, military, or SWAT/police officers if they're trying to maintain a bit of subtlety (which you don't get as much from leather gimp suits).


...or they could have done X-Force's black & gray color scheme. It's still dark and subdued enough.

ParanoidObsessive posted...
But I've always been a proponent that most comic costumes don't look as good in 3D in a more realistic-style film. Even the MCU feels the need to adapt.


But they've also gradually been toning down or dropping the goofier elements of their changes. And part of it is likely less a matter of "this won't work!" and more a matter of what they think most movie-goers would prefer.
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Aaantlion
09/18/19 12:08:07 AM
#268:


At any rate, as the gang knows, I've been cleaning as of late (partly to figure out everything I have, but also because it feels like I'm living in an episode of Hoarders). My most recent discovery is that the beaten-up SNES copy of Primal Rage I ordered a few weeks is wholly superfluous -- I have a completely pristine copy that was in an old nightstand. Thankfully I don't believe I ordered X-Men Mutant Apocalypse, because I discovered a copy of that as well. One of these days I really need to bust out my SNES.

Near to that was my Masterpiece Soundwave, which has sadly fallen from Mint-in-Box to Very Good so I probably won't be reselling that down the road. I had left in package just because I wasn't sure how much I cared about it, but I'll probably display it out of box someday when I find a good place for it. Right now my MP Thundercracker and Skywarp don't have great placements.

Otherwise watched a few more clips from that show that Hugh Laurie and Stephen Fry did together, which as with the previous ones I saw were pretty damn lousy. However, the court room skit was funny. Also found some clips from Yes, Minister, which seems hilarious.
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ParanoidObsessive
09/18/19 4:55:42 AM
#269:


Don't really have time to reply to everything, but:



Aaantlion posted...
...or they could have done X-Force's black & gray color scheme. It's still dark and subdued enough.

Yeah, but if they went that route, they could just as easily go the early X-Factor route and put them all in blue jumpsuits.

Or God help us, the more recent X-Factor costumes:

http://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/5/5c/All-New_X-Factor_Vol_1_1_Larroca_Variant_Textless.jpg
http://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/8/8f/All-New_X-Factor_Vol_1_12_Textless.jpg

The ones you were referring to were just individually modified versions of the original team costume anyway (in the same way that the original New Mutant costumes were just black-and-yellow X-Men uniforms - which have always kind of been my favorite variation).

Ironically, I think the best costumes they could have had for them were just plain-clothes. In a world without costumed heroes, the best possible way to blend in is to just dress normally (the only reason they wear costumes in the comics is because Xavier is deliberately trying to evoke the idea that they are "mutant heroes" in the vein of the Fantastic Four and Avengers). And it makes sense for a group that are just teachers and "normal" people 99% of the time - they're not fighting super-villains every week in the movie universe. Just like Logan spends a lot of time in his jacket and Rogue has her hooded deal that kind of evokes her comic costume and Cyclops is going to be Cyclops no matter what he's wearing as long as he's got the glasses/visor, they can easily fight in normal clothes without needing some kind of tactical uniform.

But if you went that route people would complain because people assume "superhero movie" must equal "costumes".



Aaantlion posted...
But they've also gradually been toning down or dropping the goofier elements of their changes. And part of it is likely less a matter of "this won't work!" and more a matter of what they think most movie-goers would prefer.

Yes, but that's sort of the point - most people prefer a more subdued version of most costumes, because most costumes don't really work on screen the way they do on the page.

That's pretty much the entire point of the scene in Captain America where they show him on-stage in what is the closest version to his comic outfit, to highlight how it sort of looks goofy, before switching him to something more functional but still era-appropriate. Then over various movies we see how they shift the design in an attempt to stay close to the comics while still having something that works on screen (and in the case of the first Avengers movie, to put him in something that evokes his Ultimates version, since that movie was basically a deliberate hybrid of 616 Marvel and Ultimate Marvel - which is sort of true of the MCU as a whole in a lot of ways).

Spider-Man may be the one character who seems to work with the tight spandex regardless - which might be something inherent to that character or costume, or just because we've kind of been desensitized to it over the years via cartoons and general live-action parodies and the like. He's kind of too iconic to look goofy.
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Korruptor
09/18/19 5:23:51 AM
#270:


I thought Burton was still a producer on B&R? Or did they drop him altogether after Forever?


He went on to work on the canned Superman film.
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WhiskeyDisk
09/18/19 9:57:35 AM
#271:


ParanoidObsessive posted...
they can easily fight in normal clothes without needing some kind of tactical uniform.


But everyone needs pouches! Even mutants with no gadgets whatsoever!

As to the scrapped Superman script...at least Nic Cage would have been comedy gold as Supes. How much worse could it have been than what we've gotten since the Christopher Reeves movies?
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Entity13
09/18/19 11:17:46 AM
#272:


So last night, my folks and I watched the movie "Tolkien." It was nice.
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Aaantlion
09/18/19 6:15:05 PM
#273:


How the fuck did I not hear about Yes, Mininster all these years? This is some of the funniest shit I've seen >_> The "English Customs" clip on the BBC's channel had me cracking up for nearly full five minutes, during which I had pause the video. What other British comedies have I missed out on? I know that there are a few enthusiasts of popular British comedies in this topic.

Otherwise I realize I've got a ton more cataloging to do this weekend in terms of games and DVDs I've gone through. And at some point I've actually got to play or watch some of these >_< Although I will say that many of the older items *were* things I'd watched, because once upon a time I had more free time and a compulsion to game, etc, so things didn't backlog as much.

ParanoidObsessive posted...
Ironically, I think the best costumes they could have had for them were just plain-clothes. In a world without costumed heroes, the best possible way to blend in is to just dress normally (the only reason they wear costumes in the comics is because Xavier is deliberately trying to evoke the idea that they are "mutant heroes" in the vein of the Fantastic Four and Avengers). And it makes sense for a group that are just teachers and "normal" people 99% of the time - they're not fighting super-villains every week in the movie universe. Just like Logan spends a lot of time in his jacket and Rogue has her hooded deal that kind of evokes her comic costume and Cyclops is going to be Cyclops no matter what he's wearing as long as he's got the glasses/visor, they can easily fight in normal clothes without needing some kind of tactical uniform.


For day-to-day, sure, but costumes exist to hide identities. If plainclothes people used fantastic powers, they'd be easier to recognize when not using those powers. However, in a costume -- even one without a mask -- people are drawn to those elements of the outfit. And while there are other no other superheroes in that universe, you have other groups who conceal their identities. It stands to reason that people going out of their way to conceal their powers would want to conceal their identities when using those powers.

Granted, you've also had X-Men who either don't wear costumes or it's just been their attire. And you have some characters where they're known for several looks, such as Wolverine's "Logan" look where he's civilian outfit is fairly recognizable. All the same, I consider Wolverine never having one of his traditional costumes one of the things that disappointed me most about the film.
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Aaantlion
09/18/19 6:15:12 PM
#274:


ParanoidObsessive posted...
Yes, but that's sort of the point - most people prefer a more subdued version of most costumes, because most costumes don't really work on screen the way they do on the page.

That's pretty much the entire point of the scene in Captain America where they show him on-stage in what is the closest version to his comic outfit, to highlight how it sort of looks goofy, before switching him to something more functional but still era-appropriate.


The public spectacle costume didn't really resemble anything from the comics, though. And, if anything, it kinda suggest what you complain about -- that the creators are demonstrating disdain for the source material

ParanoidObsessive posted...
Spider-Man may be the one character who seems to work with the tight spandex regardless - which might be something inherent to that character or costume, or just because we've kind of been desensitized to it over the years via cartoons and general live-action parodies and the like. He's kind of too iconic to look goofy.


Or Spider-Man simply proves that it CAN be done, if you bother to try. They could have very easily given him a revamp as well. But sure, it could also just be a matter of his popularity. Superman and Batman also tend to get outfits that aren't outrageously far from something seen in comics.

WhiskeyDisk posted...
As to the scrapped Superman script...at least Nic Cage would have been comedy gold as Supes. How much worse could it have been than what we've gotten since the Christopher Reeves movies?


I would be amenable to that, if not for the fact that I saw him in Ghost Rider. Nicholas Cage doesn't always make things fun.

ParanoidObsessive posted...
To some extent, I dislike Jack Nicholson's performance in the first movie in the same way, for the same reason - it feels like Nicholson doesn't even remotely give a fuck (because he didn't, and has admitted this - he also encouraged DeVito to not give a fuck and just cash the check as well).


I wanted to just revisit this comment real quick because I've seen Nicholson not give a fuck before -- I sat through Wolf -- and it definitely felt like we getting something from him, even if he claimed differently. And honestly, he's done a *lot* of films over the years where I felt he was just showing up for a paycheck (hell, EVERYBODY in As Good as it Gets felt like they were there for a paycheck; however, it had one of my favorite lines and something that got me 3KL'd or 10KL'd for repeating once in a topic where people were asking for writing advice on how to write women. I imagine if I had just posted the clip, I wouldn't have got in trouble for that.)
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Korruptor
09/18/19 6:15:28 PM
#275:


WhiskeyDisk posted...
ParanoidObsessive posted...
they can easily fight in normal clothes without needing some kind of tactical uniform.


But everyone needs pouches! Even mutants with no gadgets whatsoever!

As to the scrapped Superman script...at least Nic Cage would have been comedy gold as Supes. How much worse could it have been than what we've gotten since the Christopher Reeves movies?


Christopher Reeves was iconic as Superman, Nicolas Cage is a meme.
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I_Abibde
09/18/19 6:25:57 PM
#276:


If you still have a SNES, I can almost guarantee you that it still works. That has to be one of the most resilient consoles ever made. Hell, I still play mine from time to time, and I have had it since 1992.

Aaantlion posted...
Or God help us, the more recent X-Factor costumes.


The costumes are ... unpleasant, but I take the "All New" label to mean that the X-Factor Investigations run of the comic is done. Peter David did a great job on that. (Granted, I suspect it has been done for ages, but it was still running when I let my subscriptions expire.) ... Seeing Danger (villain) and Warlock (dead) on the same team is surreal, and not in the good way.
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Revelation34
09/18/19 8:24:42 PM
#277:


I_Abibde posted...
If you still have a SNES, I can almost guarantee you that it still works. That has to be one of the most resilient consoles ever made. Hell, I still play mine from time to time, and I have had it since 1992.


My first one broke. I have no idea if the 2nd one would still work if I still had it.
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The Wave Master
09/19/19 12:16:28 AM
#278:


Watched NXT tonight, and the wrestling itself was pretty darn good.

However, we have to talk about the elephant in the broadcast booth. Renee Young.

I'm all for giving women a chance in a male dominated industry like Pro Wrestling, but she is just terrible at her job. Just awful. Her timing is horrible, she has no chemistry with anyone she works with, and offers no insight into the match at all. Also, her voice gets on my nerves lately. It's about as bad as Troy Aikman with Joe Buck doing football games.

Just my thoughts.
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zebatov
09/19/19 1:58:06 AM
#279:


Lasagna with bchamel sauce. If it doesnt have that its no good. I like watermelon juice now (it took until 2017ish for them to make it!?) but drink mostly water.

I will absolutely not eat konnyaku or anything with that texture. Haggis either.
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I_Abibde
09/19/19 6:55:53 AM
#280:


The Wave Master posted...
However, we have to talk about the elephant in the broadcast booth.


At least they moved Nigel back to the NXT booth from 205 Live.

I watched the USA premiere last night, and I was a little surprised to learn that only the first hour of NXT is on USA. The second hour is still on WWE Network.
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ParanoidObsessive
09/19/19 3:29:55 PM
#281:


The Wave Master posted...
I'm all for giving women a chance in a male dominated industry like Pro Wrestling, but she is just terrible at her job. Just awful. Her timing is horrible, she has no chemistry with anyone she works with, and offers no insight into the match at all. Also, her voice gets on my nerves lately. It's about as bad as Troy Aikman with Joe Buck doing football games.

She was great when she was doing Talking Smack.

The biggest problem she has is one that isn't actually her fault, and which ruins other commentators as well (Michael Cole specifically). Namely, when Vince MacMahon is shouting innate bullshit into your ear on a regular basis, it can be hard to actually do your job well. Because he is an insane old man who is 40 years out of touch and who has massive disdain for his audience, and doesn't tolerate free will or attempts to manifest personality from his toys. Even Corey Graves suffers from it - he's become way worse since coming to the main roster. It's also one of the main reasons why Mauro Ranallo is one of the better commentators on NXT but absolutely refuses to work on the main roster.

The other problem she suffers from is the same problem multiple other commentators suffer from as well - namely, being part of a three-man commentary team. A strong face/heel dynamic between play-by-play and color commentators tends to be the best combination in wrestling in terms of personality dynamics (which is why JR and Lawler and Gorilla Monsoon and Bobby Heenan are probably the two most beloved combinations to this day). Once you add a third commentator, they tend to wind up having trouble asserting themselves or finding their voice. Renee is basically stuck between Corey's strong heel persona and Michael Cole as Vince's official ventriloquist dummy, and it kind of screws her over (in the same way it hurt Percy Watson and it hurts Beth Phoenix in NXT, and part of why people have been complaining about AEW going the same room, leaving Alex Marvez the odd-man-out).

You won't have to worry about her much longer, though. She's going to be off commentary entirely once the network brand split comes (they're moving her to host a discussion show on Fox). They're also supposedly dropping back to a two-man commentary team for both shows, which is a 100% positive. Though knowing Vince, he'll change his mind about that after a week or two and probably turn them into four man teams or something.
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Aaantlion
09/22/19 1:46:06 AM
#282:


I_Abibde posted...
If you still have a SNES, I can almost guarantee you that it still works. That has to be one of the most resilient consoles ever made. Hell, I still play mine from time to time, and I have had it since 1992.


I more meant if the cartridge ever stops working for whatever reason.

The Wave Master posted...
Watched NXT tonight, and the wrestling itself was pretty darn good.

However, we have to talk about the elephant in the broadcast booth. Renee Young.

I'm all for giving women a chance in a male dominated industry like Pro Wrestling, but she is just terrible at her job. Just awful. Her timing is horrible, she has no chemistry with anyone she works with, and offers no insight into the match at all. Also, her voice gets on my nerves lately. It's about as bad as Troy Aikman with Joe Buck doing football games.

Just my thoughts.


She hasn't been good at anything she's done. I know she was fucking some of the top talent at one point so maybe she's protected because they're scared she might file discrimination charges or something.

I_Abibde posted...
At least they moved Nigel back to the NXT booth from 205 Live.


Ooooh, maybe I will have to start watching NXT again.

ParanoidObsessive posted...
The biggest problem she has is one that isn't actually her fault, and which ruins other commentators as well (Michael Cole specifically).


Michael Cole's VKM complaints were hilarious.
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ParanoidObsessive
09/22/19 2:25:56 AM
#283:


Aaantlion posted...
Michael Cole's VKM complaints were hilarious.

Pretty much everyone's VKM stories are hilarious.
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WhiskeyDisk
09/22/19 10:01:41 AM
#284:


Aron Eisenberg, Nog from ST:DS9 dead at 50.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.startrek.com/news/aron-eisenberg-obituary-star-trek%3famp

RIP
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Korruptor
09/23/19 6:46:41 AM
#285:


I actually thought he was a real kid. RIP
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Aaantlion
09/26/19 2:00:45 AM
#286:


I've been watching some videos about people who built underground homes and in each case it feels like it's just a matter of time before they bring up Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit >_> Some have cited the cartoon while others mention the movies, but so far it's come up without fail.

While I fucking love the concept of these -- since they tend to be secure and keep a consistent temperature -- I'm frequently depressed because, also without fail, it seems like every one of these has a twin-sized bed. There are few things as depressing in this world as the twin-sized bed; it's like an announcement that not only does a person not have somebody, but they've written off that possibility. Granted, I kinda expect that given that they've crafted their environment to suit their tastes and view, on some level it *could* be seen as inevitability, but the non-subterranean tiny-homers often have a partner or spouse. (Likewise, that man-cave show on HGTV has -- despite some things being ostentatiously cool -- always struck me as pathetic and/or depressing as well, both because the husband's stuff is relegated to one area and also because he specifically has a place to get away from his wife/family right at the house.)

idk, I wouldn't mind having something like a underground home or tiny home as a vacation place (or hideout if the world went to hell), but I'm too addicted to belongings to live in a small space.
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I_Abibde
09/26/19 1:39:44 PM
#287:


My concern about those is that they are one earthquake away from 1) losing all value, and 2) killing the occupants. Then again, I'm sure they factor that into their plans when they build them.

My new players are showing up for tonight's Basic Fantasy RPG session, and I'm equal parts excited and nervous. It's going to be a little crowded at my dinner table, but I think we'll make it work.
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Aaantlion
09/27/19 1:39:40 AM
#288:


I_Abibde posted...
My concern about those is that they are one earthquake away from 1) losing all value, and 2) killing the occupants. Then again, I'm sure they factor that into their plans when they build them.


Most of them aren't built 100% underground, it's more a matter that they're built into the side of a hill or some such (and have the top covered over).

And, to avoid a very long discussion about earthquakes (and the actual risk), I'll simply note that they handle at least some other natural disasters (like tornadoes) better than conventional homes.
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Entity13
09/27/19 4:59:21 PM
#289:


Well, things are looking up for me. I applied to an apartment, one bed, this morning, and was approved in less than an hour. I received that message a few minutes before the start of my work shift. It is with ten minutes's walk of where I work too, and it had been posted on Craigslist a few minutes before my mom and I discovered it. So yeah, Nov 9 or 11 is when I will be free to do my own thing again, according to when the availability starts.

Wee... New life proper in Olympia, WA. Now if only my first self-published book would sell a little better so I can pay for a bunch of things I need and be truly free.
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The Wave Master
09/27/19 11:59:23 PM
#290:


Spider-man is going to get the sequel to Far From Home that was never not going to happen in the first place. I figured something was going to happen when Sony launched a new Daily Bugle website with J K. Simmons two days ago..

Anyway, "Can't Go Home" (That's what I'm calling it) will be released in theaters July 16, 2021.
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ParanoidObsessive
09/28/19 12:08:47 AM
#291:


I kind of feel like Sony should have held out on this - they kind of caved and got fucked over financially in the revised deal. Disney basically threw their weight around and got their way as always, simply because they're the 800-lbs gorilla in the room.
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Revelation34
09/28/19 1:16:42 AM
#292:


ParanoidObsessive posted...
Disney basically threw their weight around and got their way as always, simply because they're the 800-lbs gorilla in the room.


Sony is worth more than Disney.
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ParanoidObsessive
09/28/19 1:49:52 AM
#293:


Revelation34 posted...
Sony is worth more than Disney.

Sony's media focus is also a lot weaker than Disney's. Most of Sony's value is tied up in the electronics side of the business. In terms of media power alone, Sony is weaker than Disney - it ranks around 6th while Disney is 1st, and is about 1/5th the value.

Regardless, Disney's also far influential because they tend to control more facets of media (ie, the main reason why everyone was so afraid of a Fox-Disney deal, making them even more powerful). And they're VERY willing to strong-arm almost anyone to get their way whenever they feel the need to do so. It's the same mentality that makes them famous for being one of the most litigious media companies out there as well.
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WhiskeyDisk
09/28/19 2:28:11 AM
#294:


ParanoidObsessive posted...
Revelation34 posted...
Sony is worth more than Disney.

Sony's media focus is also a lot weaker than Disney's. Most of Sony's value is tied up in the electronics side of the business. In terms of media power alone, Sony is weaker than Disney - it ranks around 6th while Disney is 1st, and is about 1/5th the value.

Regardless, Disney's also far influential because they tend to control more facets of media (ie, the main reason why everyone was so afraid of a Fox-Disney deal, making them even more powerful). And they're VERY willing to strong-arm almost anyone to get their way whenever they feel the need to do so. It's the same mentality that makes them famous for being one of the most litigious media companies out there as well.


To be fair, was Sony going to make more money on Spidey going it alone than they would letting Mauschwitz run the show? I have my doubts there.

Venom - Budget $100M. It made $205.2M globally.

Far From Home - $160M. It made $1.131B globally.

I'm not quite seeing how playing nice with Disney is them getting the short end of the stick here.
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ParanoidObsessive
09/28/19 8:46:23 AM
#295:


WhiskeyDisk posted...
To be fair, was Sony going to make more money on Spidey going it alone than they would letting Mauschwitz run the show? I have my doubts there.

Venom - Budget $100M. It made $205.2M globally.

Far From Home - $160M. It made $1.131B globally.

I'm not quite seeing how playing nice with Disney is them getting the short end of the stick here.

Keep in mind the original deal was that Sony pays Disney 5% and gave up all merch rights. Once the movies were successful (and Kevin Feige suddenly had all the Fox toys to play with), Disney decided to pull a Vader and alter the deal (even more appropriate, with the current talk about them putting Kevin Feige in charge of at least one Star Wars film as well).

Disney demanded 50%, Sony told them to go fuck themselves.

Now realize that means that Sony was looking at the Far From Home numbers, and seeing that, under Disney's new terms, even a movie THAT successful would only net them $500-600 mil, tops. Meanwhile, Venom actually made somewhere around $850 mil worldwide (NOT $205, as you say).

So to answer your question, Venom actually made more money for Sony than Far From Home would have if it had been made under the terms Disney wanted. Sony was 100% correct to reject that deal, and Disney were pretty much being assholes for demanding it in the first place (especially when, again, Disney is STILL making tangential money because they control 100% of the merch rights for Spider-Man).

Sony caved to negative pressure and agreed to a 25% deal, which is still absolute bullshit, and will probably still be worse for them than if they'd just made the movie themselves without the MCU connections. Especially since Phase 4 MCU looks like it's going to be mostly shit anyway.

Meanwhile, Disney is basically going to get paid somewhere between $200-300 mil for doing absolutely nothing other than letting Kevin Feige act as advisor, and letting Sony reference other Marvel characters in passing (which is itself counterbalanced by the fact that the reciprocation there is that Marvel got to use Spider-Man in three movies he otherwise wouldn't have been in at all).

Disney basically manipulated fan response and intimidated Sony into backing down and accepting a terrible compromise. If there's a villain in this tale at all, it's the Mouse.
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WhiskeyDisk
09/28/19 10:44:12 AM
#296:


ParanoidObsessive posted...
Meanwhile, Venom actually made somewhere around $850 mil worldwide (NOT $205, as you say).


I'm just going by the first search results on Google for "how much did "x" make".
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Revelation34
09/28/19 2:13:01 PM
#297:


Are they going to digitally add Stan Lee to future movies?
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Aaantlion
09/28/19 3:37:14 PM
#298:


I think everybody kinda expected that Sony and Disney would find *some* way to work things out. I have no opinion beyond that because the *only* MCU film I've seen with Spidey in it so far has been Civil War and Spidey's role/performance was kinda underwhelming.

Speaking of underwhelming, I learned that Transformers: Cyberverse is a thing after it popped up on my NFI queue. Apparently following Transformers Prime (which I loved, although s3/Beast Hunters was a bit of a drop in quality and the movie was a bit worse; probably the only thing I absolutely loved about s3 was that it brought in Shockwave, who had previously only been shown in flashbacks), they had a new Transformers: Robots in Disguise that apparently continued the story (I was vaguely aware of it but didn't watch it) and then there were two Rescue Bots shows that ran at the same time.

At any rate, Cyberverse continues the gimmick of not having Bumblebee talk right (this time he can only parrot lines from commercials, etc, which he uses to communicate -- it seems to be for comic relief, but it has yet to be funny) and I guess the show's token female bot this time around is Windblade, who some of you might remember because she was Hasbro's fan-voted creation (and, if you didn't hear about, basically there were multiple rounds of voting but round one determined alignment, "gender", and I think vehicle mode). While Windblade's design is still pretty neat, the character herself feels like a massive step down from TF Prime's Arcee. So far the only thing I really like about the show is that it looks like the Seekers are going to get a lot of airtime since the first episode featured Thundercracker (who regrettably didn't speak) and Windblade talks about Seekers by name.

On the more whelming side, over the past few days I watched the second season of Disenchanted which, other than the first two episodes (which basically resolve the season 1 cliffhanger ending), was a good deal funnier than what I recall of season 1. My favorite episode was probably the writer one, partly for Luci volunteering to be Bean's "writer's demon" and that short hobbies discussion. During the same episode, I also paid a bit more attention to the name puns on some of the businesses she passed on the street (such as Gertrude's Steins and Poem Depot) and, whenever I rewatch the show in its entirety, I really need to go back and see what other signs I kinda overlooked. The Steampunk episode was also kinda neat.

However, despite having watched s1 within the past year or so, I realized I had forgotten a *lot* of stuff, which is another reason I prefer binging complete shows. Also I hate these 10-episode seasons. I'd rather get a slightly slower release schedule with 15-episode seasons.
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Aaantlion
09/29/19 3:34:59 PM
#299:


The Mysterio and Donflamingo Pop!s I had talked about ordering arrived today. I'm always leery ordering any collectibles off Amazon because of qc issues, but the Mysterio looks fine at a glance. Doffy's paint looked alright as well (except for the glasses being a little off)... but then I noticed that piece connecting the bottom of his head to his head isn't sitting flush. Ugh. Debating whether to open the box and try to manually fix it or just wait to see if I ever find him in retail (which could still happen, I just got impatient), buy a clean copy, and then return his one on that receipt.

It's mostly an issue if the figure is displayed right around eye-level or above, which coincidentally where I usually display my boxed Pop!s. Come to think of it, even if I display him out of box, anywhere I might place him I'd be eye-level at some point.

And I had been kinda holding off altogether until I could find $60+ worth of stuff shipped from & sold by Amazon to take advantage of a promotion they're running where you get a $15 discount if you use your credit card rewards, but it's been months and the only time that would have really made sense was back when the new No More Heroes game was on sale for $20 and Detective Pikachu was available for $15, but I dragged my feet too long on that. So instead I just hit the $25 minimum (basically $7 for Doffy, $7 for Mysterio, and then $14 for Ultimate NES Remix for the 3DS (which I bought because I loved the game challenge concept behind The Wizard, even if the movie was mildly forgettable)).
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Metalsonic66
09/29/19 3:49:42 PM
#300:


Sony trying to do their own movie with Tom Holland as Peter but also unconnected to the MCU would have been a mess. Even more so if they tried to connect it to Venom after already basically cutting him off from all connections to Spider-Man
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Aaantlion
09/29/19 6:30:20 PM
#301:


Everything about their handling of Venom annoys me, but the special effects were neat. Going ahead with Venom without Spider-Man was just a wtf choice, not unlike when WB uncoupled Catwoman from Batman because they dragged their feet on a Catwoman movie after Batman Returns and Michelle Pfeiffer had gotten old-ish by then.
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