Current Events > My manager keeps misgendering one of my coworkers

(+) Yeah! (+)

legendary_zell posted...

Judging based on your absurd statement that the world isn't transphobic, you may just be fundamentally bad at perceiving reality accurately. People are ostracized, harassed, disowned, fired, attacked, and even killed for being transphobic every day in the US and around the world.

I assume you meant something slightly different? Trans people are killed because of transphobia. They're killed by transphobic people. Your post sounds like it's the transphobic people who are killed.
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Sir Will posted...

legendary_zell posted...

Judging based on your absurd statement that the world isn't transphobic, you may just be fundamentally bad at perceiving reality accurately. People are ostracized, harassed, disowned, fired, attacked, and even killed for being transphobic every day in the US and around the world.

I assume you meant something slightly different? Trans people are killed because of transphobia. They're killed by transphobic people. Your post sounds like it's the transphobic people who are killed.

Lol, yeah, you're right. I meant Trans people. And also sorry @XXmiznatorXX. You're still wrong overall but you didn't do what that whole post was about.
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legendary_zell posted...

Sir Will posted...

legendary_zell posted...

Judging based on your absurd statement that the world isn't transphobic, you may just be fundamentally bad at perceiving reality accurately. People are ostracized, harassed, disowned, fired, attacked, and even killed for being transphobic every day in the US and around the world.

I assume you meant something slightly different? Trans people are killed because of transphobia. They're killed by transphobic people. Your post sounds like it's the transphobic people who are killed.

Lol, yeah, you're right. I meant Trans people. And also sorry @XXmiznatorXX. You're still wrong overall but you didn't do what that whole post was about.

All good, lol that's what happens when I type on the phone and my phone changes a word.

But I think we agree, OP should talk to the trans person about it, and then go to HR they're cool. I just didn't think they should go around the trans person to speak to HR on their behalf.

Hairistotle posted...

ffmasterjose posted...

PatrickMahomes posted...

Do this. Stay out of it. It sucks but it's not your place.

This. I'd mind my own business. Not your pig, not your farm
.

you guys are gutless

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The thing is, while this starts with the coworker, it's still the AM who is acting in this manner and believes it to be okay. If TCs coworker quits and the AM is never called out, he's only going to continue his behavior to the next person. Because he knows he can get away with it

Perhaps there's a better way to go about that though, and @XXmiznatorXX you'd be right about going to the manager first (hell I think I agree with that first instead of HR). I just don't believe this behavior should be tolerated and, for the well being of the workplace, it needs to end

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Lmao at the people calling standing up for the rights of another person virtue signaling

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im just glad we have protectors of rights

where would we be without our rights

rights

right

write
rite

?

Maybe I'm just missing something obvious, what's the downside of going to HR?
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Anteaterking posted...

Maybe I'm just missing something obvious, what's the downside of going to HR?

If the manager finds out he could be even more of an ass or even try and hurt their positions, depending on how much power he has. Of course that would be reason to go back to HR. Depends on the company I guess and how likely they are to actually stand up to stuff like this.

And even if he doesn't find out who went to HR, they'd know who it was about and could make things even worse for him.

(I haven't read the whole topic so I don't know everything that's been said)
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CookieMarvin posted...

ooh its time for the if you say a damn thing to hr you are scum insects to come crawling out again

if you legitimately think hes doing it out of bad faith, tc, you should say something. marginalized people need other folks looking out for them in the workplace. it would be infinitely safer for you to say something than for him to.

i agree. thankfully we dont have bigots in my workplace discriminating against my manji pendant. but yea always speak out against bigots.

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Whenever someone's sentences contain "....she ------- SORRY HE---", you know they're just doing it to piss them off.

I'm confused; do you not want people to correct themselves? Like I'm struggling to see why having people you want to change their ways changing their ways is a bad thing.

Alpha218 posted...

Lmao at the people calling standing up for the rights of another person virtue signaling

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PopOutAtYoParty posted...

I'm confused; do you not want people to correct themselves? Like I'm struggling to see why having people you want to change their ways changing their ways is a bad thing.

I think he's trying to indicate a certain tone with which it's said that's more along the lines of someone loudly getting it wrong and then "correcting" themselves, even though they intentionally made the mistake.
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What do they look like?

LittleBonTron2 posted...

What do they look like?

This isnt an excuse
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Anteaterking posted...

PopOutAtYoParty posted...

I'm confused; do you not want people to correct themselves? Like I'm struggling to see why having people you want to change their ways changing their ways is a bad thing.

I think he's trying to indicate a certain tone with which it's said that's more along the lines of someone loudly getting it wrong and then "correcting" themselves, even though they intentionally made the mistake.

Oh, mb

Okay so I decided I am going to talk to the co worker first, and then if he wants me to do something bring it up to the actual GM (who isn't the one misgendering its the ass. manager)

The thing is the trans person is like 17 and doesn't work super often because of school so idk when I will see him next, but I think at the very least he will appreciate it that I am willing to do something. I personally trained this person myself (I have a position in the company where I am tasked with training people and get paid extra for it) so I feel like I should have this person's back on this matter. But it is up to him, I'm not going to go out on a whim and do something if he doesn't even want me to do it. For all I know he wants to just lay low and get the easy paycheck.
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you're handling it appropriately
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Are people legally required to use the chosen pronoun? Just curious. I honestly don't know.
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joe40001 posted...

Are people legally required to use the chosen pronoun? Just curious. I honestly don't know.

there's no lawsuit here
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joe40001 posted...

Are people legally required to use the chosen pronoun? Just curious. I honestly don't know.

This is Indiana, we basically still have an active KKK here.
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Hmm. So obviously people/bosses should be kind and respectful to their employees. Though I could see the argument being made that "if somebody doesn't believe people can actually change their gender, should they be legally forced to change their mind on it?"

If the boss just was honest and said "look, I personally don't think you are actually a male and that's why I say 'she'" would that make them an evil bigot?
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joe40001 posted...

If the boss just was honest and said "look, I personally don't think you are actually a male and that's why I say 'she'" would that make them an evil bigot?

Yeah.
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called my wife a he today

she got so offended and I apologized because I have empathy and Im a good person

ill never do it again

Slap your coworkers ass

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joe40001 posted...

Hmm. So obviously people/bosses should be kind and respectful to their employees. Though I could see the argument being made that "if somebody doesn't believe people can actually change their gender, should they be legally forced to change their mind on it?"

If the boss just was honest and said "look, I personally don't think you are actually a male and that's why I say 'she'" would that make them an evil bigot?

Kinda. Especially if, yeah, one is still being a dick and using the wrong pronouns. Also, requiring people to use the proper pronoun would not be 'forcing them to change their mind on it'.
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joe40001 posted...

Hmm. So obviously people/bosses should be kind and respectful to their employees. Though I could see the argument being made that "if somebody doesn't believe people can actually change their gender, should they be legally forced to change their mind on it?"

If the boss just was honest and said "look, I personally don't think you are actually a male and that's why I say 'she'" would that make them an evil bigot?

Obviously yes he is not allowed to have an opinion to the contrary or he is an evil bigot
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Sir Will posted...

joe40001 posted...

Hmm. So obviously people/bosses should be kind and respectful to their employees. Though I could see the argument being made that "if somebody doesn't believe people can actually change their gender, should they be legally forced to change their mind on it?"

If the boss just was honest and said "look, I personally don't think you are actually a male and that's why I say 'she'" would that make them an evil bigot?

Kinda. Especially if, yeah, one is still being a dick and using the wrong pronouns. Also, requiring people to use the proper pronoun would not be 'forcing them to change their mind on it'.

Let's push the hypothetical to extremes.

Let's say somebody prefers to be addressed as Doctor, even though they aren't a doctor and never got a PhD. Are you being a dick if you refuse to do that?
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I had a comp sci class with an MtF trans person once. The professor purposefully kept using male pronouns, she would correct him every time, he would ignore her, and the rest of the class would sit in painful awkward silence.
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So much toxicity from everyone involved. Yuck.
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shockthemonkey posted...

joe40001 posted...

Sir Will posted...

joe40001 posted...

Hmm. So obviously people/bosses should be kind and respectful to their employees. Though I could see the argument being made that "if somebody doesn't believe people can actually change their gender, should they be legally forced to change their mind on it?"

If the boss just was honest and said "look, I personally don't think you are actually a male and that's why I say 'she'" would that make them an evil bigot?

Kinda. Especially if, yeah, one is still being a dick and using the wrong pronouns. Also, requiring people to use the proper pronoun would not be 'forcing them to change their mind on it'.

Let's push the hypothetical to extremes.

Let's say somebody prefers to be addressed as Doctor, even though they aren't a doctor and never got a PhD. Are you being a dick if you refuse to do that?

This is such a stupid comparison. Stop trying to find excuses to misgender people.

It's a hypothetical, not a direct comparison.

You can answer the hypothetical or explain why it's stupid. Simply calling it stupid doesn't really contribute anything though.
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shockthemonkey posted...

joe40001 posted...

shockthemonkey posted...

joe40001 posted...

Sir Will posted...

joe40001 posted...

Hmm. So obviously people/bosses should be kind and respectful to their employees. Though I could see the argument being made that "if somebody doesn't believe people can actually change their gender, should they be legally forced to change their mind on it?"

If the boss just was honest and said "look, I personally don't think you are actually a male and that's why I say 'she'" would that make them an evil bigot?

Kinda. Especially if, yeah, one is still being a dick and using the wrong pronouns. Also, requiring people to use the proper pronoun would not be 'forcing them to change their mind on it'.

Let's push the hypothetical to extremes.

Let's say somebody prefers to be addressed as Doctor, even though they aren't a doctor and never got a PhD. Are you being a dick if you refuse to do that?

This is such a stupid comparison. Stop trying to find excuses to misgender people.

It's a hypothetical, not a direct comparison.

You can answer the hypothetical or explain why it's stupid. Simply calling it stupid doesn't really contribute anything though.

Your hypothetical doesnt contribute anything.

Stop trying to find excuses to misgender people.

You are projecting that.

The issue is there is somebody chronically misgendering somebody and it seems to be causing that person distress so I want to break apart the certain elements, there seem to be 2 elements involved in my estimation:

1. A person not believing just because you identify as a gender you are that gender. (This is not being discussed in the hypothetical)
2. The question of if a person is a dick if they refuse to say something they believe to be untrue, if not saying it distresses somebody.

For us to have a full discussion we have to tease apart both of those questions, so that's what this question is meant to address, element 2, and it addresses it in a scenario where nobody would disagree that the non-doctor is a doctor.

Once we have agreement on question 2 we can also discuss question 1. But just going "this is stupid you want to hate trans people" is not productive.

I personally want to have a discussion about the topic at hand and how people perceive it, and so that involves breaking down and discussing it's elements.
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shockthemonkey posted...

joe40001 posted...

Sir Will posted...

joe40001 posted...

Hmm. So obviously people/bosses should be kind and respectful to their employees. Though I could see the argument being made that "if somebody doesn't believe people can actually change their gender, should they be legally forced to change their mind on it?"

If the boss just was honest and said "look, I personally don't think you are actually a male and that's why I say 'she'" would that make them an evil bigot?

Kinda. Especially if, yeah, one is still being a dick and using the wrong pronouns. Also, requiring people to use the proper pronoun would not be 'forcing them to change their mind on it'.

Let's push the hypothetical to extremes.

Let's say somebody prefers to be addressed as Doctor, even though they aren't a doctor and never got a PhD. Are you being a dick if you refuse to do that?

This is such a stupid comparison. Stop trying to find excuses to misgender people.

This. Those are not the same at all. There's always this 'let's push this to ridiculous extremes because that will invalidate EVERYTHING!' when it generally doesn't. And often, like here, the 'extremes' are ridiculous or not even the same issue.

UnholyMudcrab posted...

I had a comp sci class with an MtF trans person once. The professor purposefully kept using male pronouns, she would correct him every time, he would ignore her, and the rest of the class would sit in painful awkward silence.

What an ass.
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shockthemonkey posted...

Stop projecting and entertain my useless hypothetical where I try to find excuses to misgender people

No

You will only get so far in life if you fundamentally refuse to try to understand people like the boss with whom you strongly disagree.
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Sir Will posted...

shockthemonkey posted...

joe40001 posted...

Sir Will posted...

joe40001 posted...

Hmm. So obviously people/bosses should be kind and respectful to their employees. Though I could see the argument being made that "if somebody doesn't believe people can actually change their gender, should they be legally forced to change their mind on it?"

If the boss just was honest and said "look, I personally don't think you are actually a male and that's why I say 'she'" would that make them an evil bigot?

Kinda. Especially if, yeah, one is still being a dick and using the wrong pronouns. Also, requiring people to use the proper pronoun would not be 'forcing them to change their mind on it'.

Let's push the hypothetical to extremes.

Let's say somebody prefers to be addressed as Doctor, even though they aren't a doctor and never got a PhD. Are you being a dick if you refuse to do that?

This is such a stupid comparison. Stop trying to find excuses to misgender people.

This. Those are not the same at all. There's always this 'let's push this to ridiculous extremes because that will invalidate EVERYTHING!' when it generally doesn't. And often, like here, the 'extremes' are ridiculous or not even the same issue.

I never claimed they are the same, please see post #137 if you are confused.
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shockthemonkey posted...

joe40001 posted...

shockthemonkey posted...

Stop projecting and entertain my useless hypothetical where I try to find excuses to misgender people

No

You will only get so far in life if you fundamentally refuse to try to understand people like the boss with whom you strongly disagree.

Im never going to justify harassing an employee and Im not going to stand by and watch if my coworker is being harassed.

Your hypothetical is useless and pretending that its helpful is a waste of everyones time.

So you believe there is no use in trying to understand people like the boss whose actions you strongly disagree with? Not even a possible use in that in understanding them you might be better equipped to convince them the error of their ways?
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shockthemonkey posted...

Its not an employees job to make a boss understand why he shouldnt harass another employee and I cant believe this needs to be explained.

I didn't say it was their job. I'm asking you:
Do you believe there is no use in trying to understand people like the boss whose actions you strongly disagree with? Not even a possible use in that in understanding them you might be better equipped to convince them the error of their ways?
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joe40001 posted...

Sir Will posted...

joe40001 posted...

Hmm. So obviously people/bosses should be kind and respectful to their employees. Though I could see the argument being made that "if somebody doesn't believe people can actually change their gender, should they be legally forced to change their mind on it?"

If the boss just was honest and said "look, I personally don't think you are actually a male and that's why I say 'she'" would that make them an evil bigot?

Kinda. Especially if, yeah, one is still being a dick and using the wrong pronouns. Also, requiring people to use the proper pronoun would not be 'forcing them to change their mind on it'.

Let's push the hypothetical to extremes.

Let's say somebody prefers to be addressed as Doctor, even though they aren't a doctor and never got a PhD. Are you being a dick if you refuse to do that?

The difference between the two is that one is an earned title (Dr.) and the other is part of someone's identity (and don't waste my time with "Someone's identity could be based on them having a PhD". *I* have a PhD and that's not an inherent aspect of a person).

Like it would be weird for your assistant manager to insist on using your birth name when you've gone by your middle name your whole life because that's part of your identity and the only reason for them to refuse to do so would be some weird interpersonal thing.
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shockthemonkey posted...

Youre asking me questions to be annoying in order to justify your worthless hypothetical. There is no reason to misgender anyone deliberately. Anyone who does that is an asshole.

No I am literally asking you a question, a question with words. You seem very very very very very very very very hell bent on telling me what I'm asking and meaning and why, even in the face of me explicitly speaking for myself. Again, this is the question I am asking you:

"Do you believe there is no use in trying to understand people like the boss whose actions you strongly disagree with? Not even a possible use in that in understanding them you might be better equipped to convince them the error of their ways?"

If you are refusing to answer that question, just own it. But please stop insisting I'm saying stuff I'm not or asking stuff I'm not. I asked the above question.
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Anteaterking posted...

joe40001 posted...

Sir Will posted...

joe40001 posted...

Hmm. So obviously people/bosses should be kind and respectful to their employees. Though I could see the argument being made that "if somebody doesn't believe people can actually change their gender, should they be legally forced to change their mind on it?"

If the boss just was honest and said "look, I personally don't think you are actually a male and that's why I say 'she'" would that make them an evil bigot?

Kinda. Especially if, yeah, one is still being a dick and using the wrong pronouns. Also, requiring people to use the proper pronoun would not be 'forcing them to change their mind on it'.

Let's push the hypothetical to extremes.

Let's say somebody prefers to be addressed as Doctor, even though they aren't a doctor and never got a PhD. Are you being a dick if you refuse to do that?

The difference between the two is that one is an earned title (Dr.) and the other is part of someone's identity (and don't waste my time with "Someone's identity could be based on them having a PhD". *I* have a PhD and that's not an inherent aspect of a person).

Like it would be weird for your assistant manager to insist on using your birth name when you've gone by your middle name your whole life because that's part of your identity and the only reason for them to refuse to do so would be some weird interpersonal thing.

I acknowledge this. There are 2 parts to the boss's actions and this question one only addresses 1 component. That doesn't mean it's a bad question because it is not meant to imply these scenarios are equivalent.

I'll restate some of what I said before:
The issue is there is somebody chronically misgendering somebody and it seems to be causing that person distress so I want to break apart the certain elements, there seem to be 2 elements involved in my estimation:

1. A person not believing just because you identify as a gender you are that gender. (This is not being discussed in the hypothetical)
2. The question of if a person is a dick if they refuse to say something they believe to be untrue, if not saying it distresses somebody.

For us to have a full discussion we have to tease apart both of those questions, so that's what this hypothetical question is meant to address, element 2, and it addresses it in a scenario where nobody would disagree that the non-doctor is a doctor.
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shockthemonkey posted...

I refuse to answer that question

Thanks, I appreciate you taking ownership of that.
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I wonder how much longer this is going to continue before they get tired
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