Board 8 > What is a video game?

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MetalmindStats
11/16/19 1:09:28 AM
#1:


I recently watched Ahoy's video about the first video game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHQ4WCU1WQc

It sets forth the following specific definition of what constitutes a video game, in order to be able to determine what the first video game was:

A video game must:

1) Exist in a practical implementation
2) Generate some kind of video signal
3) Have interaction that alters this signal
4) Be principally intended for entertainment
5) Be playable solely through the video display(s)


In general, this strikes me as a robust, quite reasonable definition. However, the fourth component seems to imply that most of the games within the recent trend of interactive stories, or what some uncharitably call "walking simulators" aren't actually video games. It intrigues me that, even though I would call these video games, I don't have a retort to anyone who would rule them out as video games due to not being principally intended for entertainment.

There's another layer to this whole conundrum, too, as Ahoy broadens the definition of point 4 (in reference to OXO) a bit later in the video:

Entertainment is not the purpose of implementation, but is the purpose of playing.


In OXO's case, this allows it to qualify as a video game even though it was implemented for the sake of a thesis. For a game like Night in the Woods, should entertainment be considered the purpose of playing, despite not necessarily being the purpose of implementation? There's certainly specific components of what we might call the gameplay of Night in the Woods that are intended to be entertained, and I would guess that most people playing Night in the Woods for the first time are principally looking to be entertained, but I really don't know for sure.

Even if Night in the Woods does qualify as a video game, how about something like That Dragon, Cancer? It seems pretty obvious to me that entertainment is neither the purpose of implementation, nor (for most people) the purpose of playing, though I'll admit I haven't played That Dragon, Cancer myself. And if That Dragon, Cancer isn't a video game, what is a suitably concise term to describe it, preferably along with similar experiences? Something like "interactive story" sounds reasonable to me; if we agree on that, though, that begs the question of what exactly an interactive story is. Can we define the term using a set of principles akin to the principles of a video game above, and if so, what are those principles?

Alternatively, is applying the "duck test" (i.e. if it looks like a video game, and plays like a video game, it is one) sufficient? Even more broadly, does it matter whether or not the likes of Night in the Woods and That Dragon, Cancer are actually video games? I'm really not sure what the right answer to these questions is, and they certainly don't seem clear-cut, so I'm curious to know what you all think.

Or you could use this topic for more general discussion of Ahoy's video. That works, too.
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Nanis23
11/16/19 1:17:19 AM
#2:


If the Telltale "games" are considered games, why is Black Mirror's Bandersnatch is not considered one?

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Snake5555555555
11/16/19 1:21:33 AM
#3:


Personally speaking, definitions 2 and 3 have been the only ones that matter for me.

If you are going strictly by the Ahoy definition though, I would still say both That Dragon, Cancer and Night in the Woods still count as video games however. Entertainment can be defined as merely something that holds your attention, it doesn't have to be in a positive or negative way.

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_stingers_
11/16/19 1:26:18 AM
#4:


a miserable pile of secrets
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Uglyface2
11/16/19 1:46:03 AM
#5:


There's a problem with 2, as well. During the last console generation, somebody did a game based entirely around sound effects. I don't remember much about it, except that it was on the 360 indie market.
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Paratroopa1
11/16/19 2:05:02 AM
#6:


MetalmindStats posted...
For a game like Night in the Woods, should entertainment be considered the purpose of playing, despite not necessarily being the purpose of implementation?

this is one of the strangest questions I've ever heard

what the fuck other purpose does NITW have
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Paratroopa1
11/16/19 2:06:58 AM
#7:


Also I don't feel like watching this for an hour right now but what does #5 mean? That one seems like a shaky criterion
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Lucavi000
11/16/19 2:15:09 AM
#8:


a miserable little pile of pixels

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Paratroopa1
11/16/19 2:16:13 AM
#9:


Ah okay, #5 means like, "not a pinball machine"

that makes sense to me
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Snake5555555555
11/16/19 2:29:34 AM
#10:


It does raise an interesting question though. How would you discern #5 with something like Keep Talking and Nobody Explodes. The player reading out the instructions isn't playing through the video display, but is still an active participant in it nonetheless.

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Paratroopa1
11/16/19 2:33:18 AM
#11:


Seriously, taking this video and leaping to gatekeeping games like NITW or That Dragon, Cancer for "not being entertainment" is one of the most baffling things I've seen in a while, like, I have to believe you're trolling me

First of all, this is completely outside of the scope of what the video is examining; it's concerned with figuring out the definition of video games to figure out what the first video game is, back to a time when video games were just early prototypes of things, weren't necessarily on an LCD display, etc. It is not an examination of what makes something a video game today.

Second of all, "must be entertainment" is a definition intended to keep out like, Microsoft Word, or a calculator, not games you don't find entertaining. Something that tells a story is clearly entertainment, and if that's not immediately apparent, then I'd say you're operating on a particularly childish definition of the word entertainment.

Third, like... just what the hell in general? If you're even going to have this debate, have it about visual novels - which I believe has become less of an argument nowadays (yes, they are video games, albeit minimalist ones that fall into a niche subculture of video gaming, but minimalism is still an important expression of art etc etc). I haven't played That Dragon, Cancer but NITW literally has gameplay elements in it! A lot of them! Like, what the hell are you doing here. You're going so far astray from the purpose of the video that it's completely astounding to me. "I would still consider NITW a video game" doesn't even need to be a debate, there is no debate to be had.

Interesting points of debate were suggested like Bandersnatch (I would say yes) and that one audio game (I haven't played it but I would say 'no by these definitions but I think it's more complicated than that').
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Paratroopa1
11/16/19 2:35:30 AM
#12:


Snake5555555555 posted...
It does raise an interesting question though. How would you discern #5 with something like Keep Talking and Nobody Explodes. The player reading out the instructions isn't playing through the video display, but is still an active participant in it nonetheless.

I considered this, and I think this is probably outside of the scope of both the specific criterion used here, as well as the criteria laid out in this video, which is only concerned with figuring out, like, "is this weird shit a scientist did in 1950 a video game." I would say playing KTANE from the perspective of the instruction reader is still very much within the realm of a video game, the game's functions still only exist within a video display. A video game doesn't cease to be a video game because I closed my eyes, for instance, the components are still there. It is an interesting way in which to play a video game, but there is still clear interaction with the idea of a video game.
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MetalmindStats
11/16/19 2:40:27 AM
#13:


I call those types of games video games in my everyday discourse, what do you think my stance is? I simply thought it was an interesting question, but you know what, forget it. It's clearly not worth having this conversation if you think my intent here is to gatekeep by saying the games I mentioned aren't video games.

Also, I don't necessarily subscribe to Ahoy's definition of a video game, either: that's another thing I was unsure about, but I figured it was at least worth mentioning because it's what made me think in the first place.
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Snake5555555555
11/16/19 2:41:29 AM
#14:


Paratroopa1 posted...
I considered this, and I think this is probably outside of the scope of both the specific criterion used here, as well as the criteria laid out in this video, which is only concerned with figuring out, like, "is this weird shit a scientist did in 1950 a video game." I would say playing KTANE from the perspective of the instruction reader is still very much within the realm of a video game, the game's functions still only exist within a video display. A video game doesn't cease to be a video game because I closed my eyes, for instance, the components are still there. It is an interesting way in which to play a video game, but there is still clear interaction with the idea of a video game.


True, I guess you could also compare it to say using a walkthrough or something. You could after all totally just play KTANE by yourself with the guide at your side.

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Paratroopa1
11/16/19 2:41:52 AM
#15:


MetalmindStats posted...
I call those types of games video games in my everyday discourse, what do you think my stance is? I simply thought it was an interesting question, but you know what, forget it. It's clearly not worth having this conversation if you think my intent here is to gatekeep by saying the games I mentioned aren't video games.

Well, that's what it sounded like, I apologize if that wasn't your intention but I just don't see how a reasonable debate can even be had
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Paratroopa1
11/16/19 2:42:18 AM
#16:


Snake5555555555 posted...
Paratroopa1 posted...
I considered this, and I think this is probably outside of the scope of both the specific criterion used here, as well as the criteria laid out in this video, which is only concerned with figuring out, like, "is this weird shit a scientist did in 1950 a video game." I would say playing KTANE from the perspective of the instruction reader is still very much within the realm of a video game, the game's functions still only exist within a video display. A video game doesn't cease to be a video game because I closed my eyes, for instance, the components are still there. It is an interesting way in which to play a video game, but there is still clear interaction with the idea of a video game.


True, I guess you could also compare it to say using a walkthrough or something. You could after all totally just play KTANE by yourself with the guide at your side.

Some people do actually do this, it's possible to speedrun the game by simply memorizing the rules to everything and playing on your own
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Paratroopa1
11/16/19 2:43:09 AM
#17:


Paratroopa1 posted...
Snake5555555555 posted...
Paratroopa1 posted...
I considered this, and I think this is probably outside of the scope of both the specific criterion used here, as well as the criteria laid out in this video, which is only concerned with figuring out, like, "is this weird shit a scientist did in 1950 a video game." I would say playing KTANE from the perspective of the instruction reader is still very much within the realm of a video game, the game's functions still only exist within a video display. A video game doesn't cease to be a video game because I closed my eyes, for instance, the components are still there. It is an interesting way in which to play a video game, but there is still clear interaction with the idea of a video game.


True, I guess you could also compare it to say using a walkthrough or something. You could after all totally just play KTANE by yourself with the guide at your side.

Some people do actually do this, it's possible to speedrun the game by simply memorizing the rules to everything and playing on your own

Rather I think the question would be "if you are being the instructor, are you engaging in the act of playing a video game" and I would say "yes you are," due to the fact that nobody's ever said that you need to be watching the screen to play the video game - the video game screen is still what prompts gameplay to be possible, you're simply having what's on the screen relayed to you secondhand
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ChaoticKnuckles
11/16/19 2:46:39 AM
#18:


I would argue that those games are intended to entertain, as entertainment is subjective by nature.

If a game doesnt entertain you in some way, youre unlikely to continue playing it. Therefore I believe all games are intended to entertain, however the way in which they go about that can vary wildly.

Take for example the Souls games. Their punishing nature is meant to entertain those that are looking for that kind of unforgiving game loop when they pick up a controller. I am entertained by that style of game. One of my long time friends, not so much. They frustrate him, therefore he does not personally find them entertaining. Doesnt mean they arent intended to entertain a certain audience though, hes just not a part of that audience.
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Paratroopa1
11/16/19 2:50:57 AM
#19:


"Must be intended for entertainment" is really only meant to exclude applications. Like, excel is not a video game (although arguably you actually can make a video game in excel). This one shakes out to be pretty easy I think, I don't think there is a single example of something that we consider to be a video game currently that would not actually be a video game due to rule #4. Like, probably the biggest question I could think of there is like, a flight simulator used in military training. That might not be called a video game but I don't think anyone was really thinking of it as one.
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MetalmindStats
11/16/19 2:52:52 AM
#20:


I guess I just had an improperly narrow definition of entertainment in mind when I made this topic.
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Paratroopa1
11/16/19 3:03:07 AM
#21:


I can't do my taxes with Night in the Woods
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GildedFool
11/16/19 3:08:32 AM
#22:


I'm pretty sure you could write a program to do your taxes in Minecraft.
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DeepsPraw
11/16/19 7:12:23 AM
#23:


by those rules, reading an ebook on a tablet is a video game

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TomNook
11/16/19 8:41:10 AM
#24:


I certainly wouldn't consider interactive movies, visual novels, and DVD menus to be games, but that's me.
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Underleveled
11/16/19 10:07:31 AM
#25:


_stingers_ posted...
a miserable pile of secrets
How was this not the first response? I am disappointed in you Board 8.

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KokoroAkechi
11/16/19 3:48:41 PM
#26:


I would say one of the big requirements is that it has to be something that could not easily be replicated outside of the "video game" format.

Take something like "battle chess", it's basically chess with some graphics and funny animations. Maybe a bit of a story. Future chess programs add things like "puzzles" and such but those are things that a chess expert can make for people in real life. Chess programs are just graphical interfaces for an analog game and it's hard for me to call those video games.

Now we have visual novels. The actual interactivity in these is pretty varied. Some of them (to my knowledge) have like a minigame tossed in or so... that's like there's a game inside a book type deal. A lot of them are a "choose your own adventure" type deal, but again, I feel like that is something we've already had with actual books. You can argue that you can't easily generate the same "feel" as a visual novel due to how they incorporate sound and music into it, but I still think that is still stretching the definition of video game.

On virtual representations of analog games though. There are a lot of them and not just sports game series with a controller that uses button combinations or play schemes, but just motion control or purely reflex/hand eye based ones like Wii sports etc. Can you go outside and try to hit a baseball? Sure, but the experience you have on the Wii doing it is a lot different and you are doing something mechanically in the game that is different in real life.
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