Current Events > Why is socialism bad?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Shablagoo posted...

Eh, its a pretty good counterpoint to what you said.

Do you remember, for example, the middle ages? When feudalism, a rudimentary form of capitalism, reigned supreme? Many suffered.

Havent read the whole topic but please tell me more about this burgeoning argument about socialism's teleological underdevelopment after being strangled to death by opposing interests

Because it's probably the best argument for it, I guess

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Shablagoo posted...

Eh, its a pretty good counterpoint to what you said.

Do you remember, for example, the middle ages? When feudalism, a rudimentary form of capitalism, reigned supreme? Many suffered.

exactly, theres a reason if I was given a time machine I would not go back in time dating before 2001 lol

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Well, only if you stop strangling English to death and speak more plainly because you are using teleology in sort of a strange way unless Im just very tired.

(If so, Im sorry)

I dont think we are on the same page in terms of what JB and I were saying.

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MedeaLysistrata posted...

Havent read the whole topic but please tell me more about this burgeoning argument about socialism's teleological underdevelopment after being strangled to death by opposing interests

Because it's probably the best argument for it, I guess

its hard to explain hundreds of years in history in one post and Im guessing youre American so Im guessing your Russian and Chinese history is pretty crappy lol.

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Shablagoo posted...

Eh, its a pretty good counterpoint to what you said.

Do you remember, for example, the middle ages? When feudalism, a rudimentary form of capitalism, reigned supreme? Many suffered.

What hell does capitalism have with to do with feudalism?

If anything feudalism has more in common with socialism as you are slaves under both systems.

Newhopes posted...

What hell does capitalism have with to do with feudalism?

If anything feudalism has more in common with socialism as you are slaves under both systems.

jesus christ dude shut the fuck up. that is among the stupidest things I've read on this website

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Newhopes posted...

What hell does capitalism have with to do with feudalism?

If anything feudalism has more in common with socialism as you are slaves under both systems.

Feudalism is capitalism just replace lords with CEOs, peasants with employees, knights with lawyers, and battlegrounds with courtrooms.

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JBaLLEN66 posted...

exactly, theres a reason if I was given a time machine I would not go back in time dating before 2001 lol

Id shoot way into the future and hope to reach some sort of Roddenberry-esque utopia but probably just hit our star exploding instead.

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Shablagoo posted...

Well, only if you stop strangling English to death and speak more plainly because you are using teleology in sort of a strange way unless Im just very tired.

(If so, Im sorry)

I dont think we are on the same page in terms of what JB and I were saying.

You made the point that feudalism was rudimentary capitalism- my point is just that after, what, 200 years of socialism, we can't expect it to be perfect (since what we are seeing is probably the rudimentary form)

Teleology just means final or ultimate purpose and socialism has clearly not taken its final form

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MedeaLysistrata posted...

You made the point that feudalism was rudimentary capitalism- my point is just that after, what, 200 years of socialism, we can't expect it to be perfect (since what we are seeing is probably the rudimentary form)

Teleology just means final or ultimate purpose and socialism has clearly not taken its final form

Ohh ok thanks, now its more clear. I dont know if I agree that were in the early stages of socialism. I mean, 200 years ago one of the soon-to-be (or was it already, then?) greatest economic powers on Earth was still thriving on the worlds most despicable slavery trade. Id argue were more late-stage capitalism than infantile socialism. Interesting idea, though.

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Tyranthraxus posted...

Feudalism is capitalism just replace lords with CEOs, peasants with employees, knights with lawyers, and battlegrounds with courtrooms.

This just slows how moronic the left is and don't even have a basic understanding of what capitalism is.

Shows you how bad our education system is, God help the west when the boomers die out and you lot vote in socialism.

Newhopes posted...

This just slows how moronic the left is and don't even have a basic understanding of what capitalism is.

Shows you how bad our education system is, God help the west when the boomers die out and you lot vote in socialism.

Can you describe your work experience to me?

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Newhopes posted...

This just slows how moronic the left is and don't even have a basic understanding of what capitalism is.

Shows you how bad our education system is, God help the west when the boomers die out and you lot vote in socialism.

Well please explain to me the differences brilliant one.

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Newhopes posted...

This just slows how moronic the left is and don't even have a basic understanding of what capitalism is.

Shows you how bad our education system is, God help the west when the boomers die out and you lot vote in socialism.

capitalism and feudalism share many characteristics (most notably the necessity of an exploited underclass to function), though they're still distinct economic systems.

also, socialism cannot be voted in

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Shablagoo posted...

Can you describe your work experience to me?

Self employed plumber/electrIcian but do other things like decorating and floor laying.

But what does this have to do with this?

Because we have been brainwashed that everything related to Socialism is a highway to Soviet Communism, and we are better dead than red!

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JBaLLEN66 posted...

Well please explain to me the differences brilliant one.

Capitalism is the ability to sell your labour or goods at whatever price you want it's as simple as that.

We didn't even have a semblance of that until the black death wiped out a large segment of the population basically destroying feudalism.

Name one socialist state that hasn't turned into a hellhole

Foppe posted...

Because we have been brainwashed that everything related to Socialism is a highway to Soviet Communism, and we are better dead than red!

unconstrained state control is the highway to despotism, whether by means of state capitalism or state socialism

state communism is but the express lane

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averagejoel posted...

jesus christ dude shut the fuck up. that is among the stupidest things I've read on this website

He's someone who has literally been espousing Soros conspiracy theories on this website, so maybe you're better off blocking/ignoring/tagging and moving on

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Newhopes posted...

Capitalism is the ability to sell your labour or goods at whatever price you want it's as simple as that.

completely and objectively incorrect but go off I guess

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scar the 1 posted...

He's someone who has literally been espousing Soros conspiracy theories on this website, so maybe you're better off blocking/ignoring/tagging and moving on

If you think Soros or for that matter people like the Koch brothers aren't interfering in our countries, Soros for example is now banned From 6-7 countries for tampering in elections and other things, anybody who thinks he isn't is frankly a fool.

averagejoel posted...

completely and objectively incorrect but go off I guess

Go on then tell me so I can laugh at you.

Newhopes posted...

Go on then tell me so I can laugh at you.

if you're looking for an actual response, that is the wrong way to get one

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The market determines the price, you can't just pick any value. Also market socialism also exists so it's a poor differentiator. Capitalism is simply acknowledgement of private property rights allowing the means of production to be held privately. Socialism theoretically has the means of production controlled by workers. Though in practice that never happens and either an unelected government or government backed private entities (very similar to fascism here) control the means of production. You just change out your taskmaster in practice.

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averagejoel posted...

if you're looking for an actual response, that is the wrong way to get one

No it's because you haven't got one.

Capitalism at its bare roots is the ability to sell your labour, if you want to go deeper it's about individuals having rights that's it.

Socialism is just a utopian pipe dream that'll never work without the jack boots of an authoritarian government on the peoples necks.

What's funny about capitalism is that when you frame it in terms of profit being wage theft, people get all up in arms.

Yet that's what it is? Profit is value of the product/service you sold that you don't pay to the people who produced said product/service. It's literally right there in the very cornerstone of any economics 101 course. Profit is the cost of production subtracted from the worth of the product/service.

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scar the 1 posted...

What's funny about capitalism is that when you frame it in terms of profit being wage theft, people get all up in arms.

Maybe, but it's voluntary.
Socialism usually isn't, apart from those with the means and ability to flee usually doing so.

Questionmarktarius posted...

Maybe, but it's voluntary.
Socialism usually isn't, apart from those with the means and ability to flee usually doing so.

Capitalism is only voluntary with UBI.

ButteryMales posted...

Capitalism is only voluntary with UBI.

Tent cities in San Francisco disagree.

ButteryMales posted...

Capitalism is only voluntary with UBI.

It's a good idea. A lot of people on here posting Hayek probably don't realize he supported this (and his prominent student Milton Freedmon tried to implement it under Nixon in the form of a Negative Income Tax, it lives on as the EITC).

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Questionmarktarius posted...

Tent cities in San Francisco disagree.

What part of that is voluntary? I bet if I asked them if living in a tent was voluntary they'd say "no."

ButteryMales posted...

What part of that is voluntary?

That it's in San Francisco, instead of Duluth.

Questionmarktarius posted...

That it's in San Francisco, instead of Duluth.

Going somewhere with opportunity is a choice of necessity not a completely voluntary one. Also there's probably some people who fell on hard times while already living in San Francisco.

Newhopes posted...

No it's because you haven't got one.

no it isn't. it's because you've pre-emptively dismissed anything that I'm going to say.

Capitalism at its bare roots is the ability to sell your labour, if you want to go deeper it's about individuals having rights that's it.

no, actually. it is actually significantly more specific than that

Socialism is just a utopian pipe dream that'll never work without the jack boots of an authoritarian government on the peoples necks.

and now we've come full circle. I suggest you read post 106

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scar the 1 posted...

Yet that's what it is? Profit is value of the product/service you sold that you don't pay to the people who produced said product/service. It's literally right there in the very cornerstone of any economics 101 course. Profit is the cost of production subtracted from the worth of the product/service.

As explained by someone way smarter than random CEmen about this sort of thing:

The most fundamental reason why there is no such thing as an objective or real value is that there would be no rational basis for economic transactions if there were. When you pay a dollar for a newspaper, obviously the only reason you do so is that the newspaper is more valuable to you than the dollar is. At the same time, the only reason people are willing to sell the newspaper is that a dollar is more valuable to them than the newspaper is. If there were any such thing as a real or objective value of a newspaperor anything elseneither the buyer nor the seller would benefit from making a transaction at a price equal to that objective value, since what would be acquired would be of no greater value than what was given up. In that case, why bother to make the transaction in the first place?

On the other hand, if either the buyer or the seller was getting more than the objective value from the transaction, then the other person must be getting lessin which case, why would the other party continue making such transactions while being continually cheated? Continuing transactions between buyer and seller make sense only if value is subjective, each getting what is worth more subjectively. Economic transactions are not a zero-sum process, where one person loses whatever the other person gains.

The second paragraph is where the "voluntary" part is.

Questionmarktarius posted...

Maybe, but it's voluntary.
Socialism usually isn't, apart from those with the means and ability to flee usually doing so.

No, it's not voluntary. To say that it is is disingenuous. For most workers, the alternative would be unemployment. Workers have to play the game and abide by these rules, and whenever they attempt to unionize to negotiate better deals, employers seek to prevent and undermine. Again, this is not controversial.

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scar the 1 posted...

Workers have to play the game and abide by these rules, and whenever they attempt to unionize to negotiate better deals, employers seek to prevent and undermine.

So long as you keep buying t-shirts made in Bangladesh, that's where they'll be made.

Hairistotle posted...

Hear that scar it's your responsibility

This dude is so fucking fake why does no one call him on it

I used to, but I got bored of him. so I blocked him

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Newhopes posted...

What hell does capitalism have with to do with feudalism?

If anything feudalism has more in common with socialism as you are slaves under both systems.

excellent point

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Hairistotle posted...

Hear that scar it's your responsibility

This dude is so fucking fake why does no one call him on it

You want to buy a t-shirt as cheaply as possible.
The t-shirt maker wants to buy labor as cheaply as possible.

scar the 1 posted...

No, it's not voluntary. To say that it is is disingenuous. For most workers, the alternative would be unemployment. Workers have to play the game and abide by these rules, and whenever they attempt to unionize to negotiate better deals, employers seek to prevent and undermine. Again, this is not controversial.

That's capitalism in the US. Most first world countries have workers rights and protections for unions, leading to effective collective bargaining. They also have functioning social safety nets for the unemploymed. It is possible to fix the issues with capitalism, and the highest quality of life, happiest citizens, strongest worker rights etc. all belong to countries with capitalist economies. Also unions are often outlawed or government-run in socialist countries. Sometimes striking when asked to work more for less pay and results in this:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_German_uprising_of_1953

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Actually: The Topic

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ledbowman posted...

Actually: The Topic

Marx vs Sowell: the deathmatch

Socialism instills a reliance on the government to live.
This means the government attains absolute power.
This means the people in charge will always become corrupt.
And when they start issuing corrupt orders, the people who rely on them for bread will blindly follow.

The reason Captialist countries are called the free world is because in them, you own the food you make or buy and fundamentally your propery is yours.
Even with some laws that muddy this, you can own a gun and shoot dead anyone who would try to take it.

This is why gun control is considered a sociliazing force. It is harder to ensure your property remains yours and not the state when guns are illegal.

darkphoenix181 posted...

Socialism instills a reliance on the government to live.
This means the government attains absolute power.
This means the people in charge will always become corrupt.
And when they start issuing corrupt orders, the people who rely on them for bread will blindly follow.

The reason Captialist countries are called the free world is because in them, you own the food you make or buy and fundamentally your propery is yours.
Even with some laws that muddy this, you can own a gun and shoot dead anyone who would try to take it.

This is why gun control is considered a sociliazing force. It is harder to ensure your property remains yours and not the state when guns are illegal.

If the government decided to seize my property I would certainly not be allowed to shoot them when they came to take it.

I suppose I could do it anyway and if enough people join me in deciding to do it then it would be an effective deterrent but that's called anarchy.

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ssjevot posted...

That's capitalism in the US. Most first world countries have workers rights and protections for unions, leading to effective collective bargaining. They also have functioning social safety nets for the unemploymed. It is possible to fix the issues with capitalism, and the highest quality of life, happiest citizens, strongest worker rights etc. all belong to countries with capitalist economies. Also unions are often outlawed or government-run in socialist countries. Sometimes striking when asked to work more for less pay and results in this:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_German_uprising_of_1953

calm down dude

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Tyranthraxus posted...

If the government decided to seize my property I would certainly not be allowed to shoot them when they came to take it.

I suppose I could do it anyway and if enough people join me in deciding to do it then it would be an effective deterrent but that's called anarchy.

You could shoot.
Then go to court.
Whether you win or lose depends on your peers and your lawyer.

As opposed to dissappearing.

Tyranthraxus posted...

If the government decided to seize my property I would certainly not be allowed to shoot them when they came to take it.

What usually happens, is those with the means to flee, do so. Assuming, of course, they aren't purged beforehand.
When that happens, it sets off a death-spiral of a higher percentage of needy scrabbling for a decreasing amount of revenue, which leads to higher taxes and more control, which leads to more flight.

It happened to Zimbabwe and Venezuela, as well as several times in France.
It's even happening in Illinois, right now.