Board 8 > Contest Stats and Discussion - Part 1363

(+) Yeah! (+)

Crypt of the Necrodancer would be stronger than Cadence of Hyrule and Crypt of the Necrodancer got crushed by an MMORPG.

Undertale is anti-voted but its inherent strength still allows it to outperform most other indies. It's probably the 3rd-strongest after Cuphead and Shovel Knight. The bar is not high. It wouldn't win the contest on its own intrinsic strength...but an indie contest would have such terrible vote totals that it wouldn't take much outside interference to change that.

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Actually, here's how the indies shook out in the current (and probably final?) version of the X-stats:

Cuphead - 23.0540787540817
Stardew Valley - 21.96944
Shovel Knight - 21.5175
Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night - 20.8907462632704
Ori and the Blind Forest - 20.020352
Undertale - 19.9569166308
Hollow Knight - 19.5841
Journey - 18.8310528
Celeste - 16.8005684363059
Bastion - 16.730404
Super Meat Boy - 15.8600178048
Dead Cells - 14.3764330879304
Disco Elysium - 14.3656209667021
Terraria - 14.3133560955736
The Binding of Isaac: Rebirth - 13.7824759206844
FTL: Faster Than Light - 13.64761944
Crypt of the Necrodancer - 13.2844982951117
Life is Strange-13.27778
Hotline Miami-12.11619741696
Subnautica - 12.04224
Baba Is You - 12.0259449565202
VVVVVV - 11.8652744448
Night in the Woods - 10.91097993216
The Stanley Parable - 10.575602214912
The Witness - 10.1098121157141
What Remains of Edith Finch - 10.01325
Slay the Spire - 9.84589905321984
The Talos Principle - 8.63396352
Return of the Obra Dinn - 8.23854
INSIDE - 7.13943791233456

Couple more above Undertale than I remembered but I'd probably take it over Ori and Bloodstained regardless. Ori being so much stronger than most other indie games still confuses me.

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I'd take Ori to be third strongest indie. It's legit now, especially since the sequel was a fairly high profile release.

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_SecretSquirrel posted...

But then it gets SFFed by the PS2.

It might be because I'm a little high, but this is low-key the funniest post I've ever seen in the stats topic.

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The Witness being so weak is probably the biggest stat surprise for me. Feels like that game was being talked about everywhere when it came out.

Personally I really enjoyed it immensely, until the colour based puzzles stopped me and my colour blind ass.

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KamikazePotato posted...

Actually, here's how the indies shook out in the current (and probably final?) version of the X-stats:

Minecraft should be on that list too. It's technically an indie game because it started out as an indie game. Minecraft's status as an indie game doesn't change just because a big company (Microsoft here) buys out the rights to Minecraft from the original developer. I get that some people might not think of Minecraft as an indie game because it's managed to become so well-known in the mainstream gaming community in a way that some big name AAA releases have achieved and that other indie games haven't been able to do.
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what does indie even mean technically

a lot of stuff that is considered indie is published by Devolver... does that not make them not indie?

Is it because the developer still owns their own IP rather than the publisher? Then is something like Wonderful 101 an indie game even though Platinum is big because they own the IP?
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I'm not even sure we can call Ori an indie game.

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KamikazePotato posted...

Actually, here's how the indies shook out in the current (and probably final?) version of the X-stats:

Cuphead - 23.0540787540817
Stardew Valley - 21.96944
Shovel Knight - 21.5175
Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night - 20.8907462632704
Ori and the Blind Forest - 20.020352
Undertale - 19.9569166308
Hollow Knight - 19.5841
Journey - 18.8310528
Celeste - 16.8005684363059
Bastion - 16.730404
Super Meat Boy - 15.8600178048
Dead Cells - 14.3764330879304
Disco Elysium - 14.3656209667021
Terraria - 14.3133560955736
The Binding of Isaac: Rebirth - 13.7824759206844
FTL: Faster Than Light - 13.64761944
Crypt of the Necrodancer - 13.2844982951117
Life is Strange-13.27778
Hotline Miami-12.11619741696
Subnautica - 12.04224
Baba Is You - 12.0259449565202
VVVVVV - 11.8652744448
Night in the Woods - 10.91097993216
The Stanley Parable - 10.575602214912
The Witness - 10.1098121157141
What Remains of Edith Finch - 10.01325
Slay the Spire - 9.84589905321984
The Talos Principle - 8.63396352
Return of the Obra Dinn - 8.23854
INSIDE - 7.13943791233456

Couple more above Undertale than I remembered but I'd probably take it over Ori and Bloodstained regardless. Ori being so much stronger than most other indie games still confuses me.

Ori is a metroidvania. Notice how the top of the list is full of those. I think metroidvania and platformer are the best genres for an indie to have here.

Likewise, roguelikes seem like a much weaker genre, while puzzles and walk simulators are worth crap. I guess those are the major indie genres I identified.

Metroidvania seems to have become a strong genre in the site too. Between Super Metroid doing well in 2015, Samus and Alucard being very strong in 2018, and the indies now, I think the site has fallen in love with the genre.

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Doesn't take a genius to know that Metroidvanis are strong. They are one of the purest forms of gameplay still being made these days, in an era of copy/paste open world action games.

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MithosLowell posted...

Tell Final Fantasy XV and Kingdom Hearts 3 Playrate is the most important factor of strength.

Its not. Its always been how many people loved it and re willing to support it in a 1v1 or contest format

You cannot tell me Hollow Knight has anywhere NEAR the same playrate as FFXV on this site. Or even GTA against PErsona 4 Golden. Theres just no fucking way. If its a contest of "Have you played this" The older the game is and from a more established franchise the more likely someone has played it.

Playrate is still in important factor for strength. It determines your strength ceiling, but does not actually dictate what your actual strength is. Higher playrate means a higher potential maximum strength. How well-loved (or hated) a game is what ultimately determines how that playrate translates to being a strong game or a game that is very weak. But a game is still at a severe disadvantage for having a low playrate, as a majority of voters require hands on exposure with the game to actually vote for it in a match. Only the extreme contest diehards like us would go as far as vote for a game we haven't played. It doesn't matter how well-loved a game is when very few people have played it. Tell that to Tales of Berseria, which was very well-loved by Tales fans and was a top 3 game in the series by most fans who have played it. But the game ended up being extremely weak despite being well-loved, which suggests that it has a low playrate that is severely limiting its strength.

Persona 4 Golden isn't a good example here because that game was clearly a proxy for the original Persona 4, so it's one of the few cases where playrate doesn't apply. The playrate for the original Persona 4 is likely quite excellent.
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What does "roguelike" mean?

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One save, get as far as you can, start over if you die.

Think FTL or The Binding of Isaac.

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Advokaiser posted...

What does "roguelike" mean?

Initially it had a pretty specific definition of being similar to a game called Rogue... so (I think) a dungeon-crawling type of RPG with randomly generated levels and permanent death. I think the gameplay was sort of like a Mystery Dungeon game.

Over the past like decade the term has broadened a lot to refer to basically any run-based game regardless of how the game actually plays. At this point if it has randomly generated levels and permanent death its going to get called a roguelike.

then theres another term, roguelite which refers to games that have randomly generated levels and permadeath but also have some kind of overarching progression system so even if you die during a run you make some progress that will help you on a subsequent run
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Isn't FFXV and KH3 like the perfect examples of playrate giving you strength?

They are not very well received games that still won matches off their immense playrate.

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Advokaiser posted...

What does "roguelike" mean?

Picture a dungeon with 100+ levels, where enemies don't respawn so you gotta manage items. Your save gets deleted if you die. Usually an RPG but can be other genres.

I've played 5: Stone Soup, Don't Starve, Recettear, Pokemon Mystery Dungeon and a phone one whose name I forgot.

I think the only one I really liked was Receattear, because the roguelike is only half of the game (the other half is an item shop simulator). Not really my favorite genre.

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I see... Recettear has caught my attention in the past. Might try that out sometime.

pjbasis posted...

Isn't FFXV and KH3 like the perfect examples of playrate giving you strength?

They are not very well received games that still won matches off their immense playrate.

Well, imagine how strong they would be if they actually had a positive reception!

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Didn't Recettear only get popular because of that Capitalism ho! line?

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Much like how Nier Automata got in on the ground floor because of 2B's ass, Recettear had a popular meme that brought attention to it, and like Nier Automata, it held that attention and got popular by being a good game.

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I gave the demo a go but wasn't really into it.

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shane15 posted...

Didn't Recettear only get popular because of that Capitalism ho! line?

Well I don't know why it got popular but I like the game itself.

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So 38.5 of this site hasn't played a main DQ game...

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MoogleKupo141 posted...

what does indie even mean technically

a lot of stuff that is considered indie is published by Devolver... does that not make them not indie?

Is it because the developer still owns their own IP rather than the publisher? Then is something like Wonderful 101 an indie game even though Platinum is big because they own the IP?

Wonderful 101 at least was initially funded by Nintendo. Ori probably doesn't belong there for a similar reason, only it's Microsoft instead.

but Divinity: Original Sin 2 is indie 100% of the way. series owned, created, and released by an independent studio. even used crowdfunding to get off the floor on 1 and 2.

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Microsoft began funding Ori after about a year of developement and it was in that for four years. I have a hard time counting it as an indie be definition, even if we think of it as one.

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Indie is a very subjective term. You can argue that companies like Capcom are indie.

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charmander6000 posted...

Indie is a very subjective term. You can argue that companies like Capcom are indie.

Based on what kind of argument?

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small indie company capcom just announced that the resident evil series has finally surpassed 100 million copies sold

let's hope this plucky upstart company can keep that momentum going

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I mean the term independent film has become equally meaningless, so welcome to the club.

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Indie has a very clear definition, it's just that nobody understands what it is. Ori is an indie game because the game was developed independently by a small studio, and then published by a big company (Microsoft). Ori 2 you could argue is not indie, since it was developed with resources Microsoft provided.

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PrinceOfKoopas posted...

Based on what kind of argument?

They aren't (or not funded by) Nintendo, Microsoft or Sony.

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charmander6000 posted...

They aren't (or not funded by) Nintendo, Microsoft or Sony.

So it's "all third-party developers are indies"?

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you haven't heard of the up and coming unknown indie company activision blizzard?

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PrinceOfKoopas posted...

So it's "all third-party developers are indies"?

Pretty much (at least with this argument).

Though in all seriousness, where do we draw the line? When a company has a certain amount of employees? revenue? games made?

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The Witcher 3 is my favorite indie game.

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charmander6000 posted...

Pretty much (at least with this argument).

Though in all seriousness, where do we draw the line? When a company has a certain amount of employees? revenue? games made?

Maybe a question that could solve this question is: "What differentiates a AAA game, from another that isn't?".

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I generally take "indie" as a cultural level to say new low-budget up-and-comers. However, that ain't perfect either -- new company, new series, new employees, new mechanics, what number means low budget, etc.

Indie is like art: if you can convince people of it, it is it.

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Today I had a dream where I remembered a BGE contest from a few years back, where people were shocked at Symphony of the Night's overwhelming performances every round, but I kept telling you guys it wasn't anything "shocking" as it proved to be a juggernaut since Round 1.

It beat Final Fantasy VIII very easily (like with 60%+) on like Round 3, then it won a close match a round afterwards, and then it inevitably lost against Ocarina of Time a round after.

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Actually...

Final Fantasy 8 (2015g) has a strength of 30.52.
Castlevania: SotN (2015g) has a strength of 31.48.

Castlevania: SotN wins with 51.52% of the vote!

Interesting...

I would've picked FFVIII without a second guess.

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SotN did (ever so slightly) better against OOT than FF8 did against SMW.

ShatteredElysium posted...

SotN did (ever so slightly) better against OOT than FF8 did against SMW.

The latter match was massively affected by Undertale spillover. Based on where it was looking before Undertale's push started ramping up, SMW likely would have finished with around 63%, but even that needs a big asterisk since Undertale warped that match from the word go.

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I would pick SOTN against FF 8 now.

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Alucard probably beats Squall too.

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Guys, games made before the year 2000 are officially ancient now.

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Advokaiser posted...

Guys, games made before the year 2000 are officially ancient now.

I mean, that's threeish gens ago, so yeah.

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What was the reason for 2012's very high "in the last week" percentage not seen anywhere else?

Borderlands 2?

Meanwhile, I'm amused at how even the curve of the results is in the 2020 poll.

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LinkMarioSamus posted...

Alucard probably beats Squall too.

Would alucard even break 35% against zelda??

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oh dang I lied in the poll because I forgot I played MTG Arena last night after playing some 90s PC abandonware
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pjbasis posted...

Would alucard even break 35% against zelda??

I mean, it's possible Alucard was riding a bandwagon late in the contest because he looked stronger than he's been in 15 years, but I'd say he was Squall's equal in 2018 at worst. Best case scenario, he'd be a few percent stronger.

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Alucard did better against Cloud than Squall did against Zelda. Cloud managed to hold off Zelda later in the contest. Case closed.

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Squall would have done better against Zelda after the Zelda backlash too!

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