Board 8 > When does Game of Thrones (the show) start to go downhill? [spoilers abound]

(+) Yeah! (+)

I'm rewatching the series for the first time, and it is incredible how quickly the show dips in quality after season 2. I always remembered it being a gradual decline somewhere in the middle of the run, but there is a noticeable decline immediately in season 3.

Not sure what to make of it, but it might be that season 3 opens with way too many new magic elements/focus on lore rather than the Machiavellianism of the previous season.

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The last four seasons are noticeably worse than the first four

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FL81 posted...

The last four seasons are noticeably worse than the first four

Agreed. Maybe when I get to season 5 there will be another sudden eye-opening episode that presages lesser quality. It was just so stark from season 2 (one of the best TV seasons in history) to season 3, even though season 3 is far from "bad."

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It goes a little downhill around 5, then goes up again in 6, then 7/8 are a mixed bag, with some incredible highs and some incredible... less-highs

it's never bad though. Even at it's absolute worst it's still in the top 10% of shows. At its best it's nearly unbeatable

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every season after 2 is worse than the previous except 5->6 so 5 kinda sticks out as a low point. 5 also marks the second half of the show, which is also convenient for saying 1st half good, 2nd half bad. 3 already marks the end of it being an all-time great show so i could understand picking that, while 8 marks the end of it even being decent so i could understand picking that as well.

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Xuxon posted...

every season after 2 is worse than the previous

Sounds like you agree with me then that 3 is the turning point!

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I think it's just a confluence of factors that made 3 sharply decline from the peak of S2 (Blackwater):

• Too much attention to mystical/magic things (particularly the White Walkers and Bran's warging)
• Tyrion no longer in a position to manipulate his foes in interesting ways
• Four separate groups of characters walking through the wilderness at the same time (Brienne/Jaime, Arya/Hound, Jon/Wildlings, Bran & co.)
• Daenerys/Essos being too disconnected from the other stories for too long
• Stannis peaking way too early and is no longer the looming existential threat to King's Landing that he once was
• Everything involving Theon

I don't know how the books were paced, but it seems like everything falls flat after Blackwater and, although it eventually rebounds, it just takes a lot of the momentum out of the overarching story.

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yeah, but 3 and 4 were still good enough that i have some nostalgia for them. 5 is the start of where i don't really miss it.

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I liked the ending of Season 6, but I would say whichever season has the "bad pussy" line in it that I realized the show was in trouble without the books.

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Suprak the Stud posted...

but I would say whichever season has the "bad p****" line in it that I realized the show was in trouble without the books.

I would say that was more of a nadir than a turning point, but then I remember that season 8 exists.

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Season 7 and season 8 are borderline unwatchable nonsense.

Season 6 had the finale, and there were some good parts in seasons 5/6. I think all the seasons before that were more good than bad. I don't think I could tell you where the peak was in seasons 1-4. I haven't rewatched any episodes at all since the finale as it pretty much killed my interest in the show entirely!

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Ive liked parts of every season, but I feel the answer is 5. Books also seemed kinda lost around the same time (post sword of storms) and there were some not so good plot lines there.

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2 is when I thought it really dived, mainly due to Daenerys, but 3 was another big dive. Either way, people who think it was flawless until 6 are so delusional, they deserved what happened in 8. At least 6 and 7 brought some cheesy drama back into the mix.

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I think my poll options might be confusing.

I'm really asking when the show declined from its peak. Some shows have a peak that lasts for several seasons (Mad Men, Breaking Bad, etc.). Others clearly peak and then decline from that apex, even if it's gradual.

I would not put season 3 or 4 in the same league as season 2 in my second watchthrough, even if I used to think 2 through 3 were all peak episodes.

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foolm0r0n posted...

mainly due to Daenerys,

Care to expand on this? I found the Essos plot less interesting in 2 as well, but the Westeros drama was better in 2 than 1 imo.

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So I haven't done a rewatch recently because after the final seasons I saw no reason to subject myself to it again. But doing a quick look through of IMDB episodes, season 5 is where there is no recovery from the downward spiral. Like there are some really good episodes in terms of cinematography, but the story is in a spiral that point. There are really good episodes like Hardhome or the season 6 finale that do interesting things, but the show is on a major decline at that point.

I can't pinpoint the exact peak of the show though as I don't remember all the episodes perfectly. The writing was the best in season 1, I feel like, but the overall story was probably more interested in seasons 2-3 or maybe 4. I'd have to do another rewatch to give an exact answer. Seasons 5-6 are far lower in quality than the first four and 7-8 are straight garbage. So I guess my answer for now would be season 5 as the writing in that one took such a nosedive that it became obvious it wouldn't recover. Dunno where the precise peak happens at though so that isn't quite what you're asking.

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In S1 Daenerys' story was the epitome of character. You couldn't wait for her next scene, to see how she got stronger and dealt with these impossible situations.

Then in S2 until like 5, she just rolled around burning down everything in her path, completely devoid of any characterization or real conflict. It was so bland and you wouldn't have lost anything for skipping all her scenes. It took literally multiple seasons for them to show 1 negative consequence of her burning.

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foolm0r0n posted...

In S1 Daenerys' story was the epitome of character. You couldn't wait for her next scene, to see how she got stronger and dealt with these impossible situations.

Then in S2 until like 5, she just rolled around burning down everything in her path, completely devoid of any characterization or real conflict. It was so bland and you wouldn't have lost anything for skipping all her scenes. It took literally multiple seasons for them to show 1 negative consequence of her burning.

Yeah I agree on that point. Pretty much everything in Qarth and Astapor is exactly the same. Dany encounters wealthy power broker who poses a threat to her. She is in trouble for one scene. Next scene she tricks said power broker by mercilessly killing everyone. Onto the next city.

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I wish I had seen the show so I could better participate, but Dany was the most disappointing thing about the books to me. She absolutely stole the show in A Game of Thrones and the final chapter is one of my favorites in anything, and then she just kinda meanders for the following books.

I believe season 3 and 4 correlate to A Storm of Swords which is my favorite of the books, but I've had a few friends point out differences that sound...questionable.

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When it starts to go downhill and the turning point are two different questions. S3/4 are the start of the decline, but 5 is the "turning point" where it was no longer goat status.

Also how can you stomach rewatching it after the abomination that was s8

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Suprak the Stud posted...

I liked the ending of Season 6, but I would say whichever season has the "bad pussy" line in it that I realized the show was in trouble without the books.

One thing that really bugged me about the show is that they kept changing lines from scenes in the book that they were still adapting. It's one thing to create new content for new scenes - but they just kept changing up and reworking pre-existing scenes for basically no reason, and the changes were almost always bad. It's like they kept getting more and more confident in themselves as the series grew in popularity and went 'hah, books, who needs them? WE made this show popular." Whoops.

Also, the more the show progresses, the more the dialogue trends away from poetic fantasy speak and more towards bad TV one-liners.

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KamikazePotato posted...

One thing that really bugged me about the show is that they kept changing lines from scenes in the book that they were still adapting. It's one thing to create new content for new scenes - but they just kept changing up and reworking pre-existing scenes for basically no reason, and the changes were almost always bad. It's like they kept getting more and more confident in themselves as the series grew in popularity and went 'hah, books, who needs them? WE made this show popular." Whoops.

Also, the more the show progresses, the more the dialogue trends away from poetic fantasy speak and more towards bad TV one-liners.

Thats because D&D are hacks that have no business writing their own material.

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I voted for season 5, but really the decline happened in two discrete chunks.

First, from season 5 they started to run into problems for the first time. What is often not appreciated is that some of this does come from the books - AFFC and at least the first 60% or so of ADwD aren't exactly top-notch material. However, they also overcorrected with changes that were actively harmful and led to some scenes which were poor in their own right, Dorne being the obvious example. The funny thing is they overcorrected AGAIN with the first episode of season 6 trashing the Dorne storyline entirely, so they probably should have just not done it or kept it to a small handful of scenes. However, despite this these seasons still felt like Game of Thrones, and still kept up the expected style and pacing along with a certain level of quality. The highs were also just as high.

So then there is the second point, which is season 7. Not only did the overall quality drop (there were more overtly bad moments and even the best moments were not at the same level) but the very style and pacing of the story changed. It became an entirely different show at this point, more focused on spectacle and sprinting to the finish line than sensible story progression and development. Especially in season 8, it was like watching a visualised Wikipedia summary rather than an actual story unfolding. There were also more obvious production and continuity errors which really gave a sense of being over the show. this drop in quality was probably worse overall, even though it started with season 5.

What I reckon is that in season 6 they were still working from some pretty well developed book material - the outline will probably end up very close to what we see in TWOW. For 7 and 8 however, it is clear that there was no more than a handful of essential plot points that were then very clumsily worked together. I feel like I know pretty much exactly what will happen in TWOW, but beyond the most important bits have no idea about past that.

Edit: Also 4 is absolutely the peak of the show (and correlates to the peak of the books), there are some hot takes in this topic. 2 is the weakest season in the first half and also has the most divergences from the first three books.

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I will say I think Season 6 is way better than Season 5 and WAY better than 7/8. It's not quite as good as 1-4 though.

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4>3>1>2>6>5>>7>8 tbqh

There is also a huge gulf in quality between the first and second halves of season 8 as well, which gets a bit lost in the shuffle. Though it may be season 6 with the most stark differences in quality within a season, the gulfs between the top 5 episodes and bottom 5 episodes there is huge.

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Lightning Strikes posted...

There is also a huge gulf in quality between the first and second halves of season 8 as well, which gets a bit lost in the shuffle.

The Long Night is technically in the first half. I agree that episodes 1 and 2 weren't horrendous, but Long Night onwards is omg bad

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The first 75 minutes of The Long Night are good! If you're watching in the dark on a high quality display lol

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when they started with that high sparrow religion crap

so yeah, season 5 I think

Season 5. I think it's fair to argue it was technically on a downward decline already at this point but it jumped the shark with glee in Season 5 and never truly recovered.

I agree that the start of Season 8 seemed liked an upturn, enough so that even though I had been a grump about it for 3 seasons straight outside isolated moments like Hardhome (still a 10/10) I thought maybe they could make the most of what they had written themselves into and end on a positive note.

I was deceived.

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I disagree about season 3. I thought 3-4 was the best part of the series.


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I said 7

5 is for me for sure the first Dio, but because 6 comes back and is better in every way, I had high hopes that the team could take it forward in a good way without the books

7 is awful. 8 was worse

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Definitely 5, though it went more sharply downhill in the final two seasons.

I want to talk about some things brought up.

Nelson_Mandela posted...

I think it's just a confluence of factors that made 3 sharply decline from the peak of S2 (Blackwater):

* Too much attention to mystical/magic things (particularly the White Walkers and Bran's warging)
* Tyrion no longer in a position to manipulate his foes in interesting ways
* Four separate groups of characters walking through the wilderness at the same time (Brienne/Jaime, Arya/Hound, Jon/Wildlings, Bran & co.)
* Daenerys/Essos being too disconnected from the other stories for too long
* Stannis peaking way too early and is no longer the looming existential threat to King's Landing that he once was
* Everything involving Theon

I don't know how the books were paced, but it seems like everything falls flat after Blackwater and, although it eventually rebounds, it just takes a lot of the momentum out of the overarching story.

These things all happen, but they're moved back and forth a bit because the show didn't want to leave any of the big characters out for a while. I like the pacing of the books a lot better. Jaime/Brienne happens earlier because Jaime is almost completely absent for the second book and the show couldn't drag scenes of him being imprisoned out for that long. Arya/Hound is also dragged out quite a bit, because they needed them to be together before the Red Wedding and the Red Wedding was pushed earlier so that they could have it at the end of a season. Brienne looking for Arya and Sansa is completely different in the books and it's much better in them imo. Jon's adventures with the wildlings are also dragged out quite a bit to have him do stuff all the time. The big issue is probably that season 3 and 4 cover one book together, while the first two seasons covered a book each. The third book is longer, but not that much longer. I still thought the show was good then, because it's some of the best material. So if feels like less is happening with all those things because they're all dragged out.

They clearly had no idea what to do with Stannis in the show though.

Theon is weird, because everything he does in those seasons are absent from the books and it's only implied that they happen. This is obviously to not leave Theon out for several seasons. I think his chapters when you finally see him again completely messed up are among the best the books have to offer and it doesn't work the same when we've seen him decline. The actor is phenomenal though. That helped out a lot.

Nelson_Mandela posted...

Yeah I agree on that point. Pretty much everything in Qarth and Astapor is exactly the same. Dany encounters wealthy power broker who poses a threat to her. She is in trouble for one scene. Next scene she tricks said power broker by mercilessly killing everyone. Onto the next city.

This is another show issue mostly, though Dany being away from the rest of the story is a book thing too. Daenerys is very little present in the story in the second and third books, which means the second to fourth season. That means they basically rewrote everything that happened in Qarth to be very similar to what happens in Astapor, but that's a season 2 issue just as much if not more.

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"who has a better story than bran the broken"

"oh you mean that character that we had literally nothing for so we pretended he didn't exist for an entire season?"

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Aecioo posted...

Also how can you stomach rewatching it after the abomination that was s8

Wife agreed to watch for the first time, so I want her to know my pain

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There's a case to be made for S3,but I don't think it's good. There's also a very good case to be made for S4, but I'm going to argue against that too. The show doesn't unequivocally start getting worse until after Season 4.

Season 3 does split the storyline in too many different ways, but I'd argue that all of the stories that are told are high-quality, except for the show leaning hard into torture porn with Craster's Keep and Theon/Ramsay. Even brooding Stannis has a great payoff toward the end.

Positives of S3 IMO:
- Jon really starts coming into his own this season.
- Daenerys's story is the first time the dragons really get to do anything. Again you probably have to qualify it with the shit white savior scene that ends it, but it's a really good season for her. Not as complete as S1, but it feels like a good payoff.
- Tyrion is no longer in a position of power as Hand of the King - however, he's still around, sniping, and we get Tywin, who's arguably more fun to watch.
- Speaking of King's Landing, it becomes an absolute delight if you enjoy the show's women, with Margaery and Sansa and Cersei and the Queen of Thorns all stirring up trouble together.
- The Red Wedding is obviously seen as one of the show's most shocking and best moments, and the buildup to it is great, with Robb playing the tortured, brilliant, tragic prodigy.
- Jaime's redemption arc begins here, making him one of the show's best characters (er, for the time being...)

Season 4 definitely has some issues with it, beginning to show issues later endemic of the show. Tywin/Shae's death in particular was kinda bad, and the stuff with Ygritte was cheesy. You also have bizarre scenes like the one-off of Theon's sister sailing to the Dreadfort, and Tyrion and Jaime's godawful conversation about their cousin, and Brienne and the Hound's duel. However, I'd argue Season 4 winds up being the best season due to the high points it hits:

- Everything surrounding Joffrey's wedding and death (and not least the fact it happens two episodes in)
- Littlefinger revealing his role to Sansa
- Stannis finally doing something for right, instead of ambition, by finishing Mance Rayder
- Tyrion's trial
- Every scene involving the Red Viper, from his intro until his death
- Every scene involving Tywin - brokering more marriages, presiding over trials, simply chatting with Oberyn or the Queen of Thorns
- Jon prepping the Wall for the final act of the Wildlings as a threat
- The Hound and Arya's grand adventure (the most enjoyable duo just to watch hang out, I'd argue)

I'd also argue that Seasons 1 and 2 have lots of their own demerits, if you look for them. S1 might have the fewest and tells the best self-contained story, but it still has the worst Jon story by far, the worst sexposition scenes, and super-cheesy Tyrion/Jon scenes. And say what you will about Dany later on, but S2 Dany in Qarth is the worst, with S2 Jon's story being both incomprehensible and unenjoyable. These storylines are so prominent that it's hard not to point them out first.

From S1 to S4, the show definitely shifts from "we're building a plot with lots of complexity and branches but developing them all" toward "we're paying off your plots, and they'll be awesome, but a lot of the in-between scenes will be iffy." By the time Season 5 rolls around, you've got one great storyline (Jon) and one more compelling character (Stannis). But other than Jon's storyline, the only real payoff is Dany's dragonpit scene, which doesn't make a ton of logical sense. All those scenes in King's Landing and in Meereen begin to feel really tedious, and perhaps most damningly, Tyrion and Arya's and Jaime's storylines start going to shit. Honestly, that's probably the worst part of all.

If you ignore S5, S6 actually seems to continue the S1-to-S4 trend. It has magnificent payoffs in Battle of the Bastards and Winds of Winter (and arguably when we see the flashback Tower of Joy fight and Hodor's death), but the in-between becomes even more tedious than S4 (though probably not as bad as S5). Shoutout to Tommen trying to carry the King's Landing storyline pretty much alone, and to Jaime getting sent on a second thankless mission, at least character-wise.

S7 has even stupider writing, but it delivers a lot of big moments (major military encounters of some sort in three of the first four episodes). It's actually the second half of S7 that really shits the bed with the "Cersei's wight" storyline and Cersei's pregnancy and the refusal to give us Cleganebowl.

But yeah, it's S5. I'd argue it's actually got lower lows than S7.
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Qarth is pretty much what brings season 2 down. It has easily the most significant changes from the books in the first four seasons, and while it's fine, it just serves to make things a bit more repetitive, and add some false stakes. Then the final part in the books (Barristan) got moved to the start of season 3.

In the books, it's a pretty light storyline without much intrigue or action until the House of the Undying. It is clearly a bridge to the Slaver's Bay storyline, but it's fine because it's not long at all and a lot more is going on outside it. In the show they maybe padded it a bit too much. It's still much better than much of what's in the second half though which again supports the idea of the significant dip occurring in season 5.

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Every Dany plotline is what brings down <current season> after S1.

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Man, the show really messed up on Barristan.

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FFDragon posted...

Every Dany plotline is what brings down <current season> after S1.

Not at all, season 3 is her best storyline and arguably the best of that season overall. season 4, also strong.

I will say though, one of the virtues of season 5 is that it makes Dany's ADWD storyline vastly more tolerable by cutting the fat. In the books it was interminable for the first 70%, then it gets really, really, good. The pacing of that storyline in the show is much better and pretty much the only season 5 storyline they significantly condensed (which is all of them except Arya and Cersei) that wasn't worse off for it. Though it does also contain one of that season's biggest sins which is the ridiculous death of Barristan, so never mind.

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Season 5 is the first bad season. The cracks start to show in season 4 with some bad writing, but the source material was so strong at that point that it makes up for it.

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ctesjbuvf posted...

Man, the show really messed up on Barristan.

Pre-S7 this might be my least favorite change. What a waste.

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Honestly I dont think Ive ever heard people saying 2 was better than 3 until this thread. 4, yes, some people thought that was a decline, but not 3.

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Season 5. Which is when they started running out of book material...

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Another topic about this will be made

In 3....2....1....

KamikazePotato posted...

Pre-S7 this might be my least favorite change. What a waste.

I thought the Dorne plotline was way worse but I do agree how they hyped Barristans fighting only for him to job so cleanly isnt great

I feel like at a certain point the show thought people liked the shocking twists and stunning cinematography/action and the show runners put pretty much all their eggs in that basket when they started running out of material, until they werent really able to cleanly explain why those events took place

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Oh yeah, they definitely screwed up everything related to Dorne very badly.

Except Oberyn of course.

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FFDragon posted...

"who has a better story than bran the broken"

"oh you mean that character that we had literally nothing for so we pretended he didn't exist for an entire season?"

Reading this legitimately made my stomach turn being reminded of my utter disappointment.

How...why...just...like, did ANYONE in production really think this was good?

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"Well, you see, Dany just kinda forgot about the Iron Fleet."

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5 was the turning point, though Hardhome is one of the show's best episodes. 6 was a step in the right direction. 7 had a few hiccups along the way. 8 was just a mess outside of maybe 1 or 2 episodes.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Reading this legitimately made my stomach turn being reminded of my utter disappointment.

How...why...just...like, did ANYONE in production really think this was good?

I think they probably knew it was garbage and just didn't care.

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