Board 8 > My Metroidvania kick continues.

(+) 1 Yeah! (+)

I just obtained the Bash skill last night. It takes some getting used to, but it's a cool gameplay concept.

Really digging the platforming in Ori now. Gives me Donkey Kong Country vibes.

It's definitely the highlight of the game's movement design. It's just a shame I find it frustrating.

Ori 2 has it as well, but its importance is downplayed.

Still not a big fan of how the game handles, but damn does Ori have some great, challenging platforming sequences.

The part where you have to escape the mountain while icicles are falling and geysers are shooting everywhere was brutally amazing.

The stealth section afterward where you have to avoid the giant raven...not so much.

Side note: I wish Retro Studios would make a Donkey Kong Metroidvania.

I do not.

plasmabeam posted...

Side note: I wish Retro Studios would make a Donkey Kong Metroidvania.

Hmm...it would probably work. We already have different Kongs for different powers. And all sorts of doodads like DK coins and banana birds to collect.

Actually, now that I think about it, basically it would just be a 2D DK64...

all the more reason not to have it!

Nearing the end of Ori.

I want to say this game is a strong 2D Platformer but a weak Metroidvania.

Ori 1? It has the most important part of a good Metroidvania: fun movement abilities!

2's a lot more open if that's what you care about though.

Please use the updated term Search Action, thank you. I will be contacting the admins so the topic title can be edited accordingly.

kamikazepotato's search action kick continues

I just started Hob!

Never heard of that one. Would've expected to know of something the Torchlight people made.

A few hours in and Hob is a lot more Zelda-y than anything else. There's some combat but it's more about light platforming and puzzle solving

I have a feeling there's a very strong overlap between Zelda and Metroidvania fans though, so...

Been playing Steamworld Dig 2 for a couple days, probably about halfway through. It feels fairly unique with the digging aspect, but I dunno if I'm really loving it. The story bits being mediocre probably don't help, but I dunno, digging just inherently isn't that fun I guess.

This might be an unpopular opinion, but I consider most Zelda games to be Metroidvanias. Large open map? Check. Minor upgrades and prizes for rewarding exploration, and encourage backtracking? Check. Upgrades for movement tech or to otherwise access places? Check.

If you're a purist about the definition, then no. Especially if you heap on extra criteria like it needing to be a 2-D platforming sidescroller, or that there's some magical amount of map interconnectivity required. But whatever you enjoy about the Metroidvania genre will mostly also be present in a Zelda game.

They certainly both satisfy my desire for exploration and discovery. The 2 big differences I can see are:

• Perspective - Metroidvania is classically a 2D sidescroller while Zelda is overhead (2D or 3D). But you've got outliers in the Prime games being 3D and Zelda 2 being a sidescroller.
• Dungeons - Not really a classic Metroidvania thing. But didn't one/some of the later GBA Castlevanias go a little in this direction (thinking Portrait of Ruin)? I also remember Steamworld Dig 2 having dungeons of a sort.

I think they'd both fall under the larger umbrella of search/exploration action. Within that, you've got the "classic" definitions of Metroidvania and Zelda (or Zelda-like). There's certainly a lot of cross pollination of ideas though. I'd probably even put Souls-like as a sub-genre of search/exploration action as well.

Search/exploration action - Large open map. Minor upgrades/prizes to reward exploration and encourage backtracking. And then as sub-genres:

• Metroidvania (Classic) - Upgrades to movement or accessibility to open new areas of the map. 2D sidescrolling perspective with platforming.
• Zelda (Classic) - Dungeons culminating in boss battles. Greater emphasis on puzzles. Overhead or 3D perspective.
• Souls (Classic) - Increased difficulty. Animation priority. Corpse run to retrieve resources lost upon death. Shortcuts unlocked on completion of map sections. 3D perspective.

So you've got your "classic" definitions of each genre (and I'm sure they could be fixed up or expanded upon). Then games that borrow elements from these are the "-likes" (Zelda-like, Souls-like, etc.).

Games like Hob, or Blasphemous, or Salt and Sanctuary are all search/exploration action. But Hob is a Zelda-like (but without the bosses so far). Blasphemous is a Metroidvania but with Souls-like elements (corpse run). Salt and Sanctuary is a Souls-like but from the more classic Metroidvania 2D perspective.

I feel like that kind of works, just as long as you're not an absolute fanatical stickler about the definitions. There's always a certain amount of fluidity in genre definitions, especially as classic examples of a genre start expanding by adding new elements in sequels. But I think the broad strokes here are pretty sound.

KamikazePotato posted...

Please use the updated term Search Action, thank you. I will be contacting the admins so the topic title can be edited accordingly.

Hahahaha!

Seanchan posted...

They certainly both satisfy my desire for exploration and discovery. The 2 big differences I can see are:
* Perspective - Metroidvania is classically a 2D sidescroller while Zelda is overhead (2D or 3D). But you've got outliers in the Prime games being 3D and Zelda 2 being a sidescroller.
* Dungeons - Not really a classic Metroidvania thing. But didn't one/some of the later GBA Castlevanias go a little in this direction (thinking Portrait of Ruin)? I also remember Steamworld Dig 2 having dungeons of a sort.
I think they'd both fall under the larger umbrella of search/exploration action. Within that, you've got the "classic" definitions of Metroidvania and Zelda (or Zelda-like). There's certainly a lot of cross pollination of ideas though. I'd probably even put Souls-like as a sub-genre of search/exploration action as well.

Search/exploration action - Large open map. Minor upgrades/prizes to reward exploration and encourage backtracking. And then as sub-genres:
* Metroidvania (Classic) - Upgrades to movement or accessibility to open new areas of the map. 2D sidescrolling perspective with platforming.
* Zelda (Classic) - Dungeons culminating in boss battles. Greater emphasis on puzzles. Overhead or 3D perspective.
* Souls (Classic) - Increased difficulty. Animation priority. Corpse run to retrieve resources lost upon death. Shortcuts unlocked on completion of map sections. 3D perspective.
So you've got your "classic" definitions of each genre (and I'm sure they could be fixed up or expanded upon). Then games that borrow elements from these are the "-likes" (Zelda-like, Souls-like, etc.).

Games like Hob, or Blasphemous, or Salt and Sanctuary are all search/exploration action. But Hob is a Zelda-like (but without the bosses so far). Blasphemous is a Metroidvania but with Souls-like elements (corpse run). Salt and Sanctuary is a Souls-like but from the more classic Metroidvania 2D perspective.

I feel like that kind of works, just as long as you're not an absolute fanatical stickler about the definitions. There's always a certain amount of fluidity in genre definitions, especially as classic examples of a genre start expanding by adding new elements in sequels. But I think the broad strokes here are pretty sound.

Solid breakdown. I'd also point out that Zelda-type games typically have towns and overworlds, whereas Metroidvanias usually place less emphasis on this (Blasphemous and Bloodstained both have "safe" towns, but the rest of the map consists of danger zones.)

I think there's also an "I know it when I see it" factor that separates Metroidvanias from Zelda-type games.

Now that you mention those missing ideas...

• Metroidvanias have explicit save points.
• Souls-likes have a bonfire/save point that also revives any previously killed enemies.

That's getting a little too specific. Aren't bonfires "explicit save points?" Or are you simply drawing a contrast with Zelda games?

Yeah, and lots of modern Metroidvanias use autosaves, and Metroidvanias like Ender Lilies have bonfire-style save points too.

Regardless, this isn't the topic to debate about what Metroidvanias are, it's a topic for playing Metroidvanias. I don't think it matters that much how you define them.

azuarc posted...

That's getting a little too specific. Aren't bonfires "explicit save points?" Or are you simply drawing a contrast with Zelda games?

Yes, I was more making the contrast. I kind of added the Souls-like point afterwards

Mac Arrowny posted...

Yeah, and lots of modern Metroidvanias use autosaves, and Metroidvanias like Ender Lilies have bonfire-style save points too.

Regardless, this isn't the topic to debate about what Metroidvanias are, it's a topic for playing Metroidvanias. I don't think it matters that much how you define them.

I guess I was thinking in the "classic" sense that Metroidvanias have save rooms. I'm sure a lot of newer ones add autosaves or maybe only have autosaves.

I've not played Ender Lilies (it's probably on my backlog) but from your description it sounds like it adds those Souls-like elements to what's mostly a Metroidvania.

Ender Lilies definitely uses the bonfire-esque save points, but some also call it "souls-like" due to its attack animations and fighting customizability. Plus the bosses are quite challenging until you learn their movement patterns. None of these are exclusive to DS, of course, but they are notable traits.

Turns out Ender Lillies wasn't on my backlog. Now it is!

Seanchan posted...

Turns out Ender Lillies wasn't on my backlog. Now it is!

I'm dying to play that one. Soon as the PS4 version goes on sale, I'm in.

Same with Record of the Lodoss War: Deelit (or whatever it's called).

Finished Ori.

The ending felt rather abrupt, as my save file said I was only 75% through, so I expected one more section of the game but got the credits instead. (Same issue happened with Spider-Man PS4. Devs gotta be careful with marking %s in save files... It messes with an audience's expectations).

Anyway, here are my thoughts:

+ Gorgeous, charming world and creatures
+ Excellent, challenging platforming segments
+ The few abilities you get are used to their maximum potential (although Charge Burst is kinda useless; if I'm choosing between creating save/heal points or using a charge attack, I'm going to save/heal every time.)
+ Unique approach to the genre... Instead of killing everything that moves, the focus is moreso on the surviving the environments
+ Music gave me FFX vibes

- Lack of visual cues make the escape sequences a pain. In theory, the "no-checkpoint" escape sequences are great, but when I fight my way to a certain point only to die because it's unclear what to do to continue on, it turns what should be a thrilling experience into a tedious one.
- Foreground objects, smoke, explosions, etc. preventing me from seeing where nugget-sized Ori is going at times
- The middle branch of the skill tree is useless
- Controls have "slippery" quality to them at times, especially when trying to pinpoint a jump's landing
- As beautiful as the world is, I didn't feel compelled to explore it beyond a detour or two. This has a lot to do with the game's strange difficulty, where health doesn't really matter much since you can create save points virtually anywhere.
- Would've liked some major boss battles, although I understand the game's focus is on environment/platforming over combat.

Ori 2 addresses just about all those complaints.

Mac Arrowny posted...

Ori 2 addresses just about all those complaints.

Good to know! Almost everyone says Ori 2 is the better game, so I'm eager to check it out.

Might do Yoku's Island Express next

Finished Steamworld Dig 2.

I don't really know how to feel about this game. On the one hand, there wasn't really anything bad about it. It was paced fairly well - it took me a bit over 8 hours, and had consistent progression + a variety of environments. The digging was a fairly neat mechanic. You essentially start at the surface and have to dig you're way down to find explore new areas and mine for ore which you sell for money. You have limited torch fuel and limited space for ore, so you have to return to the surface fairly regularly, which I didn't mind as a mechanic to keep things fresh, but it could be occasionally frustrating. The upgrade systems were fairly cool - you can upgrade your various abilities with money, and also get new basic abilities with money.

The main thing I didn't care for was probably the setting/story. The post-apocalyptic wild west stuff was pretty blah, and the story was too uninteresting for there to be as much dialogue as there was. It's mostly optional, but still. Not really a top Metroidvania, and basically one I only played because they gave it away free on Steam and it got great reviews for some reason. Wouldn't recommend it.

plasmabeam posted...

This looks amazing.

Somebody talk me into this. I see it's $1.49 on PSN

i'm way too late, but i wouldn't talk anyone into xeodrifter tbh.

1.49 is about what it's worth.

kinda the equivalent of playing a fun little flash game really.

it's fun to play for the like 2 hours it lasts but completely forgetable

well, i'm not a fan of discussions on a game's "worth", games are worth whatever you want to pay for them and many great games are undervalued.

the point is it's not a very whelming game and it really doesn't have much depth.

Mac Arrowny posted...

Finished Steamworld Dig 2.

I don't really know how to feel about this game. On the one hand, there wasn't really anything bad about it. It was paced fairly well - it took me a bit over 8 hours, and had consistent progression + a variety of environments. The digging was a fairly neat mechanic. You essentially start at the surface and have to dig you're way down to find explore new areas and mine for ore which you sell for money. You have limited torch fuel and limited space for ore, so you have to return to the surface fairly regularly, which I didn't mind as a mechanic to keep things fresh, but it could be occasionally frustrating. The upgrade systems were fairly cool - you can upgrade your various abilities with money, and also get new basic abilities with money.

The main thing I didn't care for was probably the setting/story. The post-apocalyptic wild west stuff was pretty blah, and the story was too uninteresting for there to be as much dialogue as there was. It's mostly optional, but still. Not really a top Metroidvania, and basically one I only played because they gave it away free on Steam and it got great reviews for some reason. Wouldn't recommend it.

I see this one near the top of a lot of "Best Indie Metroidvania" lists. Almost bought SD1 & 2 last month when they were on sale, but I hesitated because I feared the things you mentioned.

Dels posted...

i'm way too late, but i wouldn't talk anyone into xeodrifter tbh.

1.49 is about what it's worth.

kinda the equivalent of playing a fun little flash game really.

it's fun to play for the like 2 hours it lasts but completely forgetable

I ended up buying it buy haven't played it yet. Seems silly to touch this one when I've got Hollow Knight, Ori 2, Yoku's Island, Carrion, Mega Man ZX/Advent, and Dead Cells in my backlog.

Xeodrifter is cool. Can't go wrong for a couple bucks.

I played Steamworld Dig 1 ages ago and it's fun but I really hate the aesthetic.

I feel like I'm getting close to the end of Hob but I'm stuck at the moment. I know what I have to do I just don't know how to do it...

A little nudge from the internet helped. There was just one spot/path I had forgotten to check. As expected, there wasn't much more left to do, so Hob has been finished. I didn't quite get all the collectibles but I'm playing on Epic Game Store, which doesn't have trophies/achievements, so, whatever.

I had quite a bit of fun with Hob. It's not without some glitches/weirdness and I kinda wish the whole thing wasn't entirely without dialogue. But it was still fun to move around, solve puzzles, and watch the world "unlock" over time. It overall feels much more Zelda than Metroidvania. There's also a little bit of an Ico/SotC vibe that comes from the no dialogue and the whole "I'm gonna go off this way and I have no idea if that's right but stuff is happening so I guess that's good".

There's not too many games out there like this, so it's a recommend for you search/exploration action fans.

Started Castlevania: Curse of Darkness with a buddy of mine today. We took turns beating the different areas. Quick thoughts:

• Combat is hack-and-slash, and could potentially be good if the difficulty ramps up.
• Map is quite fun to explore for a 3D Metroidvania.
• The "Innocent Devil" partner system is awesome. Gives the gameplay some Kingdom Hearts vibes, and leveling up your sidekicks is a blast.
• RPG elements like building weapons and swapping out partners is a ton of fun.
• This game desperately needed platforming segments. Too many flat hallways.
• Story is meh so far. Although it was awesome to fight Trevor.
• Soundtrack is legendary.

Castlevania: Curse of Darkness is basically Devil May Cry meets Kingdom Hearts, with a Metroidvania map and a dash of Pokemon thrown in.

If only the level design weren't so bland. Some platforming segments could've elevated this game.

Been a long time since I played those PS2 3D Castlevania games but I don't remember either being particularly great. I remember playing them quite a bit and wanting to enjoy them but neither has left a lasting impression.

Seanchan posted...

Been a long time since I played those PS2 3D Castlevania games but I don't remember either being particularly great. I remember playing them quite a bit and wanting to enjoy them but neither has left a lasting impression.

I played Lament of Innocence back in 2009 and enjoyed it, but like you said, the game was forgettable aside from stringing together whip combos.

Curse impresses me more because of the Pokemon-esque Innocent Devil system. It feels like a legit Action RPG. If they had beefed up the level design and gave it more speed like in Ys VIII, Curse might've been a classic.