Current Events > I never understood this kinda logic of gatekeeping in video games

(+) Yeah! (+)

"By using this in-game mechanic that makes the game easier for you, you're now cheating yourself of the learning experience and the challenges from the game"

For example, during the Monster Hunter PSP days, the community was very against using Flash Bombs and traps because it made the game a little easier.

I understand it

VeggetaX posted...

you're now cheating yourself of the learning experience and the challenges

literally what dont you understand about this in general?

The option of having a pause feature for offline play in Soulsborne games.

How dare you use fire against a boss weak to fire! That's not the proper way to play Bloodborne!

refmon posted...

literally what dont you understand about this in general?

It's quite an extreme take to rationalize a certain way to play a game. Purposely making it harder on yourself doesn't teach you to be better gamer, especially if you're not tryna be a pro. So why spread this kinda nonsense?

hockeybub89 posted...

How dare you use fire against a boss weak to fire! That's not the proper way to play Bloodborne!

Does the boss die in one hit? Then you didnt beat it, you skipped it. Same thing with Zanmato in FFX

Dark Souls fans being so anti-shields will always be funny to me

In the case of Monster Hunter, while they hated flash bombs and traps, they had no problem using other cheese tactics and forming up specific builds for different monsters for an easier and faster kill. Why did people try to oppress others to play their way so much? Was it just a way to look and feel superior?

i blame achievements being added to games

it created this mindset in gamers that they are special for doing things in games

meanwhile very few of these ppl could ever do a challenge run of a game

like say beat pokemon with just 1 weak pokemon or beat paper mario with out taking damage or anything that involves going outside what is expected by the developers to make the game harder

AceMos posted...

beat paper mario with out taking damage

I'm pretty sure this is outright impossible.

VeggetaX posted...

Why did people try to oppress others to play their way so much? Was it just a way to look and feel superior?

I think it's that they're personally proud of their accomplishment doing "thing" and when they see someone else do "thing" in a way that looks easier, it makes them feel like their personal accomplishment isn't as impressive.

This does happen in a lot of games but to be fair, there are games with weird game design decisions where I think it's fair to say that the devs shouldn't have allowed a certain strategy to work. Because that one strategy is way better than any other strategy and there's no point wasting your time trying to beat the game a different strategy.

Like off the top of my head as an example since Dark Souls was already mentioned - I think a lot of people agree that Dark Souls 1 Gwyn shouldn't have been made parry-able. Most other bosses can't be parried, so it's weird to suddenly make it possible on the final boss. And it's way easier to hit a parry on him a couple times than it is to play the fight any other way. I wouldn't disparage someone who beats him that way because it's in the game one way or another and it's not like you're even doing anything buggy or unintended. I think it's just a weird decision on the dev side. So that kind of thing happens sometimes and if it were something more egregious that affects the entire game's gameplay I can see why some fans would at least personally prefer not to play that way for their own enjoyment. But I wouldn't try to tell someone else that they're playing a game wrong.

Solar_Crimson posted...

I'm pretty sure this is outright impossible.

TECHNICALLY yes do to the prologue but once you get past the first jr troopa fight it CAN be done

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPLG_d3jIJs&t

Summoning another player to help you is cheating yourself, because your using another actual person to fight the battle for you.

Using a summoning bell mimic tear is not. You had to hunt that down and unlock it, level it up, equip it correctly, ect ect. Its in the game in the files, so its not "cheating yourself" to use an in game mechanic.

That's the difference and where the line should be drawn.

Dark Souls fans being so anti-shields will always be funny to me

it depends on the game, but seeing people go shieldless in dark souls 1 is really funny actually. like, i bully the fuck out of those people.

LiqiudusSnake posted...

Summoning another player to help you is cheating yourself, because your using another actual person to fight the battle for you.

Using a summoning bell mimic tear is not. You had to hunt that down and unlock it, level it up, equip it correctly, ect ect. Its in the game in the files, so its not "cheating yourself" to use an in game mechanic.

That's the difference and where the line should be drawn.

Still see no difference in using an in game mechanism VS using an in game mechanism.

VeggetaX posted...

For example, during the Monster Hunter PSP days, the community was very against using Flash Bombs and traps because it made the game a little easier.

I never experienced that when I started playing MH in gen 3 and forward, so guess I chose the right place to jump in.

LiqiudusSnake posted...

Summoning another player to help you is cheating yourself, because your using another actual person to fight the battle for you.

Using a summoning bell mimic tear is not. You had to hunt that down and unlock it, level it up, equip it correctly, ect ect. Its in the game in the files, so its not "cheating yourself" to use an in game mechanic.

That's the difference and where the line should be drawn.

There's literally no difference.

As always its because fuckwit losers invest part of their identity into something, whether its a game or game company, series, movie, athlete or reality TV personality. Thus they get this misguided idea that they somehow have a stake in it, and feel offended at having to share.

Its the type of behaviour indicative of lacking self-esteem and confidence in ones identity.

BurmesePenguin posted...

There's literally no difference.

*Laughs in Let Me Solo Her*

KajeI posted...

*Laughs in Let Me Solo Her*

That's what my Mimic Tear did.

I'm glad I have just avoided that crowd by sheer coincidence. I've run into exactly one example, and I'm in no rush to see more.

I guarantee no one who says youre cheating yourself actually cares or has your best interests at heart. Theyre just talking down to you and trying to disguise it as advice.

Imagine if we used the same mindset back in the days.
You completed Contra? Nice... wait, you used the 30 lives cheat?
Booo, you are a fucking scam, go kill yourself!

Thankfully a lot of gaming communities are a lot better now.

I remember the flash bomb thing.

Damn, just brought a weird wave of nostalgia and memories playing momma hunter portable on psp with xlink kai.

Naves7 posted...

I remember the flash bomb thing.

Damn, just brought a weird wave of nostalgia and memories playing momma hunter portable on psp with xlink kai.

I play it now on something called Hunsterverse

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

Saying that you completing it without the code on the other hand made everybody believe you lied.

Didn't you used to gatekeep people from playing good Capcom games if they didn't like bad Capcom games

VeggetaX posted...

Was it just a way to look and feel superior?

It's always this.

I wonder if these people ever look back and say "damn I was such an elitist" or still the same?

VeggetaX posted...

I wonder if these people ever look back and say "damn I was such an elitist" or still the same?

Usually not. They just justify their takes through the guise of the "purity" of playing it "as intended", or something along that line. There is always a bad argument made as to why everyone who disagrees with them is wrong.

I'm okay with multiple difficulty settings and allowing the end user to adjust them to their liking.

One thing I don't like is the ability to adjust difficulty on the fly once a game campaign is started or after tutorials/prolog without any penalty or an asterisk for those of us that do take pride in beating difficult games.

I like it better when difficulty is locked in, or allows you to lock in difficulty. Otherwise, I don't care if they want to add easy mode, casual mode, baby mode, or even super insane speed runner level reflex needed hard difficulties that I won't use either for those people.

Rika_Furude posted...

Does the boss die in one hit? Then you didnt beat it, you skipped it. Same thing with Zanmato in FFX

Using every advantage I can isn't cheating. It's smart.

VeggetaX posted...

Using every advantage I can isn't cheating. It's smart.

I'd maybe sat it's cheating if it wasn't outright obvious and you used a guide. Like bosses that can be killed with a Phoenix down in final fantasy. Might seem obvious to try now when facing a undead boss but back then it wasn't.

Sufferedphoneix posted...

I'd maybe sat it's cheating if it wasn't outright obvious and you used a guide. Like bosses that can be killed with a Phoenix down in final fantasy. Might seem obvious to try now when facing a undead boss but back then it wasn't.

Back then it was pretty obvious. It's sort of the simple and obvious "What does healing do to undead?" applied to something that brings people back to life.

VeggetaX posted...

In the case of Monster Hunter, while they hated flash bombs and traps, they had no problem using other cheese tactics and forming up specific builds for different monsters for an easier and faster kill. Why did people try to oppress others to play their way so much? Was it just a way to look and feel superior?

some people cannot put themself in someone else's shoes, they think since the items makes it too easy for them, that's the case for others too. And they think learning experience starts with beating the monster and ends with speedrunning, when for others it ends with just beating the monster once or twice.

ellis123 posted...

Back then it was pretty obvious. It's sort of the simple and obvious "What does healing do to undead?" applied to something that brings people back to life.

That's countered by a mindset that assumes a boss cant be one shotted.

Also I was bad about just brute forcing everything. Never relied on stuff like elemental weaknesses. Final Fantasy 10 and up is where I finally started using other things besides mashing attack.

Rai_Jin posted...

some people cannot put themself in someone else's shoes, they think since the items makes it too easy for them, that's the case for others too. And they think learning experience starts with beating the monster and ends with speedrunning, when for others it ends with just beating the monster once or twice.

Never been big on monster hunter. I was under thr impression traps where a integral part of the game

Sufferedphoneix posted...

That's countered by a mindset that assumes a boss cant be one shotted.

Also I was bad about just brute forcing everything. Never relied on stuff like elemental weaknesses. Final Fantasy 10 and up is where I finally started using other things besides mashing attack.

Back then being able to one-shot things was pretty common. Heck, during that era FF was *entirely* based around crazy gimmicks for everything so if there was any game series that you could assume that you could do that sort of thing it would be FF. It's really only a modern thing where every fight is heavily "balanced" and no official form of cheesy nonsense is going to happen.

ellis123 posted...

Back then being able to one-shot things was pretty common. Heck, during that era FF was *entirely* based around crazy gimmicks for everything so if there was any game series that you could assume that you could do that sort of thing it would be FF. It's really only a modern thing where every fight is heavily "balanced" and no official form of cheesy nonsense is going to happen.

As said I always Brute forced shit. If I used a guide it was for where to go next or missables. Never used them for fights.

Final fantasy up till 10 was stupidly easy. Well maybe not the original nes versions of 1-3. But 4 and up yeah. And 10 still wasn't hard it's just the one to finally force me to use...strategy

Sufferedphoneix posted...

Never been big on monster hunter. I was under thr impression traps where a integral part of the game

when a monster has like 20-10 % hp it can be caught instead of killed. Many try to do that when possible. But you can have several traps and also just use one to deal damage while the monster can't move, similar to flash bombs. In newer games it is less cheesy usually, especially flash bombs.

Gatekeeping in videogames has, and always will be, pathetic.

The Iceborne nerf to flashbombs really hurt my soul.

Rai_Jin posted...

when a monster has like 20-10 % hp it can be caught instead of killed. Many try to do that when possible. But you can have several traps and also just use one to deal damage while the monster can't move, similar to flash bombs. In newer games it is less cheesy usually, especially flash bombs.

Yeah if I game gives me tools I assume they are intended to be used.

I could be a dick and claim everyone played mgs tpp wrong as I mostly only used the default equipment. I'd bring a sniper rifle or rocket launcher as needed. Basic ass tranq gun and assualt rifle otherwise.

But no after I beat the game I started fucking around with other equipment and realized I had been missing out. But I play games for fun not the challenge. I was just like that in mgs cause it worked for me. Didn't feel like I needed anything else. D dog and quiet made the game easy enough

Sufferedphoneix posted...

As said I always Brute forced shit. If I used a guide it was for where to go next or missables. Never used them for fights.

Final fantasy up till 10 was stupidly easy. Well maybe not the original nes versions of 1-3. But 4 and up yeah. And 10 still wasn't hard it's just the one to finally force me to use...strategy

I mean, that's fair. I'm just saying that just because you did not find something particularly obvious did not make it so. Most people back then were able to figure out that Phoenix Down = dead undead boss and it was only really because a game didn't come over that it wasn't well known that a particular boss had a similar style of weakness. About the only things that weren't really understood back then were things that actually required some thought, rather than being "I wonder if the game works like how it would in my imagination." For instance, FFVIII's Junction system was waaay less understood back then and it is only something that really got broken wide open once the Internet really took off. No one on the original FFVIII board ever made a deal about how you should be refining Tents, but you can hear nonstop about it now (this fits a bit more into what you are talking about with brute forcing, where children back then could not fathom doing literally anything other than Drawing magic to the point that it's all they could comprehend... Thus you end up with nonsense like Spoony's video being the lasting impression).

And yeah, FF up to X was pretty brain dead easy. That said I would say that it was really only 12 that you started to actually see the difficulty ramp up. X was still made under the old philosophy for bosses so most of them were pretty easy as well. With XII they went pretty hard on the more MMO-esque design that made the world exploration more daunting (stuff like the hidden/secret bosses being all over the place, as an example) and with XIII they went hard on making everything more difficult (and they got rid of ever doing any form of official "cheese").

ellis123 posted...

I mean, that's fair. I'm just saying that just because you did not find something particularly obvious did not make it so. Most people back then were able to figure out that Phoenix Down = dead undead boss and it was only really because a game didn't come over that it wasn't well known that a particular boss had a similar style of weakness. About the only things that weren't really understood back then were things that actually required some thought, rather than being "I wonder if the game works like how it would in my imagination." For instance, FFVIII's Junction system was waaay less understood back then and it is only something that really got broken wide open once the Internet really took off. No one on the original FFVIII board ever made a deal about how you should be refining Tents, but you can hear nonstop about it now (this fits a bit more into what you are talking about with brute forcing, where children back then could not fathom doing literally anything other than Drawing magic to the point that it's all they could comprehend... Thus you end up with nonsense like Spoony's video being the lasting impression).

And yeah, FF up to X was pretty brain dead easy. That said I would say that it was really only 12 that you started to actually see the difficulty ramp up. X was still made under the old philosophy for bosses so most of them were pretty easy as well. With XII they went pretty hard on the more MMO-esque design that made the world exploration more daunting (stuff like the hidden/secret bosses being all over the place, as an example) and with XIII they went hard on making everything more difficult (and they got rid of ever doing any form of official "cheese").

Yeah 10 just started having me use strategy like cast reflect on yourself. Or wear a particular piece of equipment to negate a boss' attack.

12 had me actively using buffs all the time.

I did figure out the Phoenix down thing against a undead boss in 8. But I only knew to try it cause I saw a friend do it to that one boss in 9.

Yeah I got started on final fantasy late. Think 10 was out when I finally started playing. I've played them all now though save 11 and 14. Unless 16 is out already then that one too

Torgo posted...

One thing I don't like is the ability to adjust difficulty on the fly once a game campaign is started or after tutorials/prolog without any penalty or an asterisk for those of us that do take pride in beating difficult games.

*eye roll*

There is only one game like that where I'm not sure why it's like that, Crash 4 has options for classic mode with lives, or without lives, so unlimited. I think I changed it partway but it still did say with lives.

But the game has rewards for deathless runs anyway so it's not important.

Torgo posted...

I'm okay with multiple difficulty settings and allowing the end user to adjust them to their liking.

One thing I don't like is the ability to adjust difficulty on the fly once a game campaign is started or after tutorials/prolog without any penalty or an asterisk for those of us that do take pride in beating difficult games.

I like it better when difficulty is locked in, or allows you to lock in difficulty. Otherwise, I don't care if they want to add easy mode, casual mode, baby mode, or even super insane speed runner level reflex needed hard difficulties that I won't use either for those people.

Pretty sure most games with campaign difficulty settings also have achievements for always staying on hard mode.